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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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LightLan said:
Harry has the children and women need to be protected before the males mindset.
It is very far from the worst of sexism, but it's there. Especially in the early books. He grows out of it later on.
We've literally seen him getting his damsel in distress button being hit despite Lydia's capabilities.
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Dresden will offer help to women in trouble.
Thats very much not the same thing as thinking women arent hella dangerous.
Not after Agent Benn, Bianca, Lara Raith, Maeve, all the various female Denarians....

DragonParadox said:
Harry does have a bit of a damsel in distress fixation, but it is not so much that he thinks women are weak as that he feels he has an inherent obligation to protect them anyway. It is literal white knighting that comes from his unusual and traumatic adolescence IMO. As to how he would take you guys taking away his agency, that is up to you guys to judge.
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Thats my point.

Dude is the guy who cant help himself if a woman asks for help.
He's also the first one to call bullshit on manipulation attempts; recall the scene in Small Favor where Denarian Rosa tries to pull that exact trick on Dresden and Sanya, and Dresden is the only one who actually realizes what she's doing.

Nevermind Tessa eating a pyrofuego a couple pages later after shooting Michael.
Or what happened to Arianna Ortega two books later. Or him shooting Corpsetaker in the back a couple years before.
He doesnt hold back because the oppositon is female.

His spells are rated E for Everyone, as the kids say these days.
 
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Oct 8, 2022 at 6:13 AM, finished with 282 posts and 40 votes.
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    [X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    [X] Focus on finishing off that sub
    [X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    -[X][Stunt] With unnatural speed you skip across the watery floor. Graceful steps stealing force from the water's movement and directing you at your target. One hand drives your sword's pommel into Harry's solar plexus removing any air that could incant the dangerous name, and the other wraps around to steady him. "Sorry" you whisper as you meet his eyes.
    [X] Focus on finishing off that sub
    - [X] Tell Harry "If you try to summon I will knock you out before the first syllable. Therefore you cannot summon, capiche?"
    [X] Write in
    - [X] Use the Crown of Eyes to learn the Capricorpus' mortal name, and whatever else it can tell you besides.
    - [X] Then Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    [X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    -[X][Stunt] With speed you knew not you had you sprint across the ruins of the display cases, glass cracking under your feet.
    -[X][Stunt] "And so he found the Ankou and will call the Cold Queen as soon as he is able," your voice calls out coldly standing over his battered body, "fulfilling the letters of his bargain."
    [X] Rather than actually knocking (which could be dangerous), forcefully shut his mouth so he could not summon Mab
    [X] Focus on finishing off that sub
    -[X] Afterwards, call Michael. If Mab wants to try and make a deal with Lydia, we can't stop her forever, but I'll be damned before I let her go into this alone.
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BronzeTongue said:
And before anyone goes on about being a being a quest PC changing things for Molly; this site has stabbed itself in the heart on the assumption it'd give them power before.
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^^^^^^
DragonParadox said:
As to how he would take you guys taking away his agency, that is up to you guys to judge.
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Goldfish said:
If he survives the consequences of us bashing him unconscious in the middle of a life or death encounter with necromancers and Evil Bob, I'm pretty sure our friendly relationship with Harry is over. No more relatively easy access to Bob, for sure, maybe Mouse losing access to Burny, instruction in supernatural matters completely off the table, etc.
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That would be a minimum, in my opinion.
Because thats how WE would react in such a situation. And with good reason; the life of a supernatural is difficult enough without having to worry about putative allies stabbing us in the back, or using our secrets to their own design.

We had a significant faction of people who wanted to cut links with Charity already each time she presses boundaries, and she has suggested nothing like this.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
For the record I want Mab to show up, as that is just another thing to get xp about. Dealing with Mab could push us over the 40xp mark.
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Mab IS going to show up this story arc.
She always does after Dresden finishes a mission she gave him.

Im just frustrated people are voting to blow up our only relationship with a wizard in a misguided attempt at controlling his life.
And pulling unnecessary aggro to boot.
And the rep damage is nontrivial.
 
uju32 said:
Im just frustrated people are voting to blow up our only relationship with a wizard in a misguided attempt at controlling his life.
And pulling unnecessary aggro to boot.
And the rep damage is nontrivial.
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Yeah, it's a real bummer.

I wonder how many people are voting that way because they want Harry to die? Or don't want him involved in the story any longer?
 
Would someone still voting for knocking Dresden out mind explaining what they think happens next? We've had a lot of discussion on if it's right or wrong to do to him, and the social consequences, but I haven't seen much in the way of responses to the recent practical concerns.

Is there reason to believe Arawn won't do something nasty other than "we like his daughter, so he's got to be a good guy"? How are we supposed to defend our unconscious ally and fight the two remaining necromancers?

If we manage to piss off Mab, what do you see the consequences as and how will we manage them?

Long term stuff aside, working out how to manage the consequences in the next few updates still needs to be considered.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Would someone still voting for knocking Dresden out mind explaining what they think happens next? We've had a lot of discussion on if it's right or wrong to do to him, and the social consequences, but I haven't seen much in the way of responses to the recent practical concerns.

Is there reason to believe Arawn won't do something nasty other than "we like his daughter, so he's got to be a good guy"? How are we supposed to defend our unconscious ally and fight the two remaining necromancers?

If we manage to piss off Mab, what do you see the consequences as and how will we manage them?

Long term stuff aside, working out how to manage the consequences in the next few updates still needs to be considered.
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They seem to think that Harry will be cool with us doing something really stupid that ignores his agency, safety, and life experiences.

Anyone who believes that obviously hasn't read the Dresden Files.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Would someone still voting for knocking Dresden out mind explaining what they think happens next? We've had a lot of discussion on if it's right or wrong to do to him, and the social consequences, but I haven't seen much in the way of responses to the recent practical concerns.

Is there reason to believe Arawn won't do something nasty other than "we like his daughter, so he's got to be a good guy"? How are we supposed to defend our unconscious ally and fight the two remaining necromancers?

If we manage to piss off Mab, what do you see the consequences as and how will we manage them?

Long term stuff aside, working out how to manage the consequences in the next few updates still needs to be considered.
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Capri is fleeing right now, Arawn is already going after her.
I assume that will continue unless Mab is called.

With the remaining conscious and present people being Molly, Gard and Lydia we can take apart the sub and the spirit behind it.
 
There is an argument that attacking Drssren will oallow Mab to personally directly attack us:
1) He is currently her agent, directly working for Winter under a magical debt.
2) Harry is currently effectively Mab's godson. She is allowed to defend him. Obligated even.


We are not ready to fight Mab. At all.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Capri is fleeing right now, Arawn is already going after her.
I assume that will continue unless Mab is called.

With the remaining conscious and present people being Molly, Gard and Lydia we can take apart the sub and the spirit behind it.
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Capri is fleeing while under attack by a wizard and Valkyrie and seeing holt killed by an arch fiend. Dresden going down changes the equation, especially when her current option is a foot race with a retired god.

We also need to consider that this is happening at combat time, in front of someone with little info on what's going on. Are we sure Gard isn't going to have a bad reaction? How about Arawn?

If the sub changes focus in response this gets more complicated.

There's also the matter of what happens if Arawn gets her. For all we know he'll drink her like a capri sun and turn around to dictate terms to us. We don't know he will do that, but they're uncertain possibilities.
 
BronzeTongue said:
We also need to consider that this is happening at combat time, in front of someone with little info on what's going on. Are we sure Gard isn't going to have a bad reaction? How about Arawn?
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There is also the point that Molly would just have changed her form with no warning, killed Holt, and immediately jumped to attack Dresden. While looking like a Denarian.
Who are literally the only other entities in Dresdenfiles that Harry has met with warforms.

What does Dresden think when a Denarian-looking warform attacks him?
Assume that he is dealing with Molly, or that a Denarian replaced her at some point? How does he react? Can we even get through his shield if its up?

It would be really funny if such an action panicked Dresden into taking up Lasciel's Coin, killing Lash, butterflying Bonea and putting Lasciel into play. While leaving Nemesis in position to take over Winter.
And by funny, I dont mean haha funny.

And even more hilarious if, after knocking him down, Evil Bob gets to act and then shoots at a Dresden thats down with no shields.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
Capri is fleeing while under attack by a wizard and Valkyrie and seeing holt killed by an arch fiend. Dresden going down changes the equation, especially when her current option is a foot race with a retired god.
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Capri was already fleeing while Dresden was fully occupied with the boat and might have died from a cannonball to the head if Arawn hadn't stepped in.
She won't turn around now that there's also a deathgod here willing to fight her.
BronzeTongue said:
There's also the matter of what happens if Arawn gets her. For all we know he'll drink her like a capri sun and turn around to dictate terms to us. We don't know he will do that, but they're uncertain possibilities.
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Possible.
I guess if Arawn fucks us over then we have something of a break between him and his daughter, which is not a bad thing for building our circle.
We can deal with that if it happens at all.
 
uju32 said:
What does Dresden think when a Denarian-looking warform attacks him?
Assume that he is dealing with Molly, or that a Denarian replaced her at some point? How does he react?

It would be really funny if such an action panicked Dresden into taking up Lasciel's Coin, killing Lash, butterflying Bonea and putting Lasciel into play. While leaving Nemesis in position to take over Winter.
And by funny, I dont mean haha funny.
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I doubt he would do that, but he has repeatedly dunked on supernaturally fast creatures attacking him. He calls it out all the time as a matter of them needing to outpace the speed of thought. A more realistic concern would be him blasting us.

Artemis1992 said:
Capri was already fleeing while Dresden was fully occupied with the boat and might have died from a cannonball to the head if Arawn hadn't stepped in.
She won't turn around now that there's also a deathgod here willing to fight her.
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Unless she thinks she needs to flip the game to survive. If she can't escape running, then a powerful host is the next best option. She doesn't know he's already occupied.

Artemis1992 said:
Possible.
I guess if Arawn fucks us over then we have something of a break between him and his daughter, which is not a bad thing for building our circle.
We can deal with that if it happens at all.
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Dealing with it after turning on our own team will make it substantially harder. Shrugging it off isn't an encouraging plan.
 
Yog said:
There is an argument that attacking Drssren will oallow Mab to personally directly attack us:
1) He is currently her agent, directly working for Winter under a magical debt.
2) Harry is currently effectively Mab's godson. She is allowed to defend him. Obligated even.


We are not ready to fight Mab. At all.
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Even worse, even if we could, we dont want to.
Because if she goes down, her successor is Maeve, who is Nemesis-infected.
Or Lea, who is also currently Nemesis-infected.

Essentially handing Winter and reality's defenses giftwrapped to the Outsiders.
And probably costing the White Council the war.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
doubt he would do that, but he has repeatedly dunked on supernaturally fast creatures attacking him. He calls it out all the time as a matter of them needing to outpace the speed of thought. A more realistic concern would be him blasting us.
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So there's a significant chance we get bounced by his shields, the ones good enough to deflect a 4 inch gun, and blasted until our shintai warform drops and we eat 5x unsoakable lethal HLs automatically.
And that would be the least bad option.

Sigh.
 
uju32 said:
So there's a significant chance we get bounced by his shields, the ones good enough to deflect a 4 inch gun, and blasted until our shintai warform drops and we eat 5x unsoakable lethal HLs automatically.
And that would be the least bad option.

Sigh.
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Unsoakable bashing, not lethal. I think it really comes down to surprise; he's good at this and has the reflexes to bounce serious face vampires and Sidhe off the walls, but if he has to process the shock of being betrayed that might not matter.

I wouldn't bet on it though, since shintai does make us look pretty monstery.

Even then I don't think it would drop us, just really suck. The bad part would be the follow up conflict.
 
Yeah. This is sounding more and more like a really, really bad idea.
I mean, more than it already did.
Also, holy shit, this was really contentious.
 
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[X] Focus on finishing off that sub

Okay dammit, since the discussion went towards Dresden's reaction I have to admit that it looks more reasonable not to punch him right now.
I still think in regards to Mab it would be better to knock him out, but unfortunatly it is really his choice to piss her off.

Regardless though, I do still want to foil Mab's plans and wishes in this matter as much as possible and will continue to vote for it.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Unsoakable bashing, not lethal. I think it really comes down to surprise; he's good at this and has the reflexes to bounce serious face vampires and Sidhe off the walls, but if he has to process the shock of being betrayed that might not matter.
I wouldn't bet on it though, since shintai does make us look pretty monstery.

Even then I don't think it would drop us, just really suck. The bad part would be the follow up conflict.
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We have 7HLs. We took 2 wounds from Holt shooting us in the head before we activated shintai.
If our shintai drops from too much damage, like a panicked fuego blasting Molly into a wall, we take another 5 HLs of unsoakable damage. Worse if Harry's spells count as special damage because Starborn/Hellfire access through Lash.

It will (probably)drop us.
 
uju32 said:
We have 7HLs. We took 2 wounds from Holt shooting us in the head before we activated shintai.
If our shintai drops from too much damage, like a panicked fuego blasting Molly into a wall, we take another 5 HLs of unsoakable damage. Worse if Harry's spells count as special damage because Starborn/Hellfire access through Lash.

It will (probably)drop us.
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Our current Shintai has 12 bonus health-levels from Devil Body and massive soak. And we do soak even aggravated damage.

The chance that Dresden one-shots us with a hasty spell is near zero.
Even if we assume that Hellfire further increases the damage and makes it harder to soak, we are still very, very tough for a mortal Wizard to bring down.

Edit: Or did you miss that we are not a 5-wound mortal right now?
 
uju32 said:
We have 7HLs. We took 2 wounds from Holt shooting us in the head before we activated shintai.
If our shintai drops from too much damage, like a panicked fuego blasting Molly into a wall, we take another 5 HLs of unsoakable damage. Worse if Harry's spells count as special damage because Starborn/Hellfire access through Lash.

It will (probably)drop us.
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We should have good soak right now. My assumption is that Harry's various "shoot at/shield against supernaturally speedy things" trick is probably a reflexive action dealing lethal force damage, and isn't as strong as one he proverbially winds up for.

So still nasty, but not enough to waste a tanky monster all on its own.

The issue would be interrupting our action and turning this into an argument in the middle of a fight.
 
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