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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
think the problem is that the charm makes clear the nourishment comes from the target, but somehow just planeshifts them to hell without any consequences anyway.

It seems reasonable to say that getting chewed on by an infernal should do something really nasty to the spirit beyond moving it around. Especially in the context of reprocessing it for essence in a world where that's precious and rare.
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DragonParadox said:
Pretty much, if you are consuming something for sustenance digestion should do more than move it around.
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I've just reread the charm, and it's the opposite. It says nothing at all about consuming the spirit, and is actually clear that the nourishment comes from elsewhere.

It's the act of murder itself which is nourishing, not the substance of the spirit itself:

Whenever the Infernal murders a sentient being, the act nourishes her as though she had just eaten a four-course meal. If she slays a ghost or spirit, then she can reflexively roll Dexterity + Occult against a difficulty of its Willpower. Success conjures a vor- tex of crimson flaying winds which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence. The Infernal re- gains 2 Essence, and the ghost or spirit is entrapped in the Hell of Being Skinned Alive.​

A solar's Ghost Eating Technique consumes the ghost or spirit in question. Murder is Meat explicitly does not. The action of murder itself provides the nourishment, in the same way as the act of learning a secret grants essence with the Crown of Eyes.

Murder is Meat slices a spirit into pieces and those pieces dissipate (as is normal for ghosts and spirits that are shredded) and reform in the Hell of Being Skinned alive (which is the bit which isn't normal).

The fact that the two mentions of Essence are adjacent can be confusing '…which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence. The Infernal re- gains 2 Essence…' but they're two separate sentences. The essence the Infernal gains is not the essence that the spirit was made of.

Note that in World of Darkness the substance that a spirit is made of that counts as their power/health bar is essence.
 
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Alratan said:
I've just reread the charm, and it says nothing at all about consuming the spirit.

It's the act of murder itself which is nourishing, not the substance of the spirit itself:

Whenever the Infernal murders a sentient being, the act nourishes her as though she had just eaten a four-course meal. If she slays a ghost or spirit, then she can reflexively roll Dexterity + Occult against a difficulty of its Willpower. Success conjures a vor- tex of crimson flaying winds which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence. The Infernal re- gains 2 Essence, and the ghost or spirit is entrapped in the Hell of Being Skinned Alive.​

A solar's Ghost Eating Technique consumes the ghost or spirit in question. Murder is Meat explicitly does not. The action of murder itself provides the nourishment, in the same way as the act of learning a secret grants essence with the Crown of Eyes.

Murder is Meat slices a spirit into pieces and those pieces dissipate (as is normal for ghosts and spirits that are shredded) and reform in the Hell of Being Skinned alive (which is the bit which isn't normal).
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Success conjures a vortex of crimson flaying winds which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence.

It seems pretty clear that you are rendering the spirit down to the Essence and then you get Essence. Now one could argue that it is the act of rendering one's foe down to essence that gives you essence and that the spirit which is so rendered reforms, but that seems rather convulsed. All in all I do not think making you guys trap every spirit you want to kill into items is really that engaging.
 
Alratan said:
I've just reread the charm, and it's the opposite. It says nothing at all about consuming the spirit, and is actually clear that the nourishment comes from elsewhere.

It's the act of murder itself which is nourishing, not the substance of the spirit itself:

Whenever the Infernal murders a sentient being, the act nourishes her as though she had just eaten a four-course meal. If she slays a ghost or spirit, then she can reflexively roll Dexterity + Occult against a difficulty of its Willpower. Success conjures a vor- tex of crimson flaying winds which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence. The Infernal re- gains 2 Essence, and the ghost or spirit is entrapped in the Hell of Being Skinned Alive.​

A solar's Ghost Eating Technique consumes the ghost or spirit in question. Murder is Meat explicitly does not. The action of murder itself provides the nourishment, in the same way as the act of learning a secret grants essence with the Crown of Eyes.

Murder is Meat slices a spirit into pieces and those pieces dissipate (as is normal for ghosts and spirits that are shredded) and reform in the Hell of Being Skinned alive (which is the bit which isn't normal).

The fact that the two mentions of Essence are adjacent can be confusing '…which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence. The Infernal re- gains 2 Essence…' but they're two separate sentences. The essence the Infernal gains is not the essence that the spirit was made of.

Note that in World of Darkness the substance that a spirit is made of that counts as their power/health bar is essence.
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I think that comes down to how you take the details.

The hells all draw power from the souls in them, that's why the Yama Kings went to the trouble of keeping them. Being nourished by murder the same way a hell is sounds like suggesting the charm is copying the mechanism used to extract power from a soul.

A process we know causes significant harm to souls from stuff like the hell of boiling oil having fried soul fragments floating in it.

The system text also goes straight from breaking the spirit down to essence and then absorbing some yourself. It seems pretty reasonable to connect the two.

I could see the argument that the soul is simply sandblasted, probably into ego death to await reincarnation, instead of killed but not just getting off with no injury for having been in an infernal's mouth.
 
Okay, let's take a look at the broader situation.
We have definitly messed up our enemies plans a bit, by stealing Lydia and Cindy back from their respective captors.
But what can we expect next?

  • Capricorpus is certainly aware that the Elder Ankou is after her and now she has lost a good option against the old hunter. She might just skip the city now to avoid true death, regardless of it is at our or his hands. She didn't surive a long time and many deaths by reckless courage. Might also seek revenge against us or another avenue of attack against the Ankou of course, but I don't think so.
  • Katrina has lost control of Mattews or will very soon. Possibly she killed him already before he could turn against her. But aside from the minor practicioner she hasn't lost much yet, she can still reasonably continue her plans. She will either attack us (with minions and allies to equalize numbers, since she can propably notice that Gard broke her warding spell) or she will continue her plan to capture the Ankou
That leaves me with the general impression that facing Kattrin as soon as possible is still the best course of action. We can't predict what Capri will do or where, but we can track her somewhat and if we don't act against her we will either be her next target or fail to stop her from achieving her other plans.
 
DragonParadox said:
Success conjures a vortex of crimson flaying winds which slice its dissipating substance into stray motes of Essence.

It seems pretty clear that you are rendering the spirit down to the Essence and then you get Essence. Now one could argue that it is the act of rendering one's foe down to essence that gives you essence and that the spirit which is so rendered reforms, but that seems rather convulsed. All in all I do not think making you guys trap every spirit you want to kill into items is really that engaging.
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Yes; but I think that's a red herring, as the same sentence that says you regain Essence says that the ghost/spirit is sent to the Hell of Being Skinned Alive.

As you say, it doesn't really make sense for you to be able to eat the spirit and for it reform unharmed in a hell (although note that a spirit's 'body' in WoD is made of something also called Essence, so when you're killed it and shredded their body in the winds you'd be spraying bits of stray essence everywhere as standard, it's not the charm converting them to essence). And the first sentence is very clear that it's the act of killing that nourishes, as I said.

My view is that the reason the Infernals get no spirit killing and instead get spirit imprisoning charms is deliberate. I think you're meant to be recruiting/using them in some way as part of becoming Demon Emperor.

BronzeTongue said:
I think that comes down to how you take the details.

The hells all draw power from the souls in them, that's why the Yama Kings went to the trouble of keeping them. Being nourished by murder the same way a hell is sounds like suggesting the charm is copying the mechanism used to extract power from a soul.

A process we know causes significant harm to souls from stuff like the hell of boiling oil having fried soul fragments floating in it.

The system text also goes straight from breaking the spirit down to essence and then absorbing some yourself. It seems pretty reasonable to connect the two.

I could see the argument that the soul is simply sandblasted, probably into ego death to await reincarnation, instead of killed but not just getting off with no injury for having been in an infernal's mouth.
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The ExWoD FAQ is also explicit that souls thrown into a Hell by infernal charms are sapient enough to escape and become Hungry Dead, which means with full memories of their former lives and continuity of identity.

You also, as I said above, don't break a spirit down into essence. Essence is the name of the substance that spirits in WoD are made of. They start off as essence.

It's the same as when you kill a mortal with the charm. The infernal doesn't need to eat their pulverised flesh to gain the physical nutrition of a four course meal, and they don't need to ear the shredded bits of essence a slain spirit was made of to recover their own spiritual energy.
 
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Alratan said:
Yes; but I think that's a red herring, as the same sentence that says you regain Essence says that the ghost/spirit is sent to the Hell of Being Skinned Alive.

As you say, it doesn't really make sense for you to be able to eat the spirit and for it reform unharmed in a hell (although note that a spirit's 'body' in WoD is made of something also called Essence, so when you're killed it and shredded their body in the winds you'd be spraying bits of stray essence everywhere as standard, it's not the charm converting them to essence). And the first sentence is very clear that it's the act of killing that nourishes, as I said.

My view is that the reason the Infernals get no spirit killing and instead get spirit imprisoning charms is deliberate. I think you're meant to be recruiting/using them in some way as part of becoming Demon Emperor.
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That does make sense, but I think it is fair to also say that and Emperor would need to kill sometimes. Not everything is recruit-able and when you get right down to it, to the fact that Exaltations respond to the will of the Chosen, it does not make that much sense that they would be unable to deal with foes permanently. The Celestial Exaltations were designed to battle the Primordials and win, whether that meant binding or killing.
 
Alratan said:
Yes; but I think that's a red herring, as the same sentence that says you regain Essence says that the ghost/spirit is sent to the Hell of Being Skinned Alive.

As you say, it doesn't really make sense for you to be able to eat the spirit and for it reform unharmed in a hell (although note that a spirit's 'body' in WoD is made of something also called Essence, so when you're killed it and shredded their body in the winds you'd be spraying bits of stray essence everywhere as standard, it's not the charm converting them to essence). And the first sentence is very clear that it's the act of killing that nourishes, as I said.

My view is that the reason the Infernals get no spirit killing and instead get spirit imprisoning charms is deliberate. I think you're meant to be recruiting/using them in some way as part of becoming Demon Emperor.
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That mechanic isn't really implemented though; the charms even make it actively harder to recruit people you've used them on unless you avoid them until you're on the upper end of the essence totem pole.

Even if that's the intended game design, the replacement system for the infernals isn't really there so it's functionally a nerf that needs homebrewing to manage either way.
 
DragonParadox said:
That does make sense, but I think it is fair to also say that and Emperor would need to kill sometimes. Not everything is recruit-able and when you get right down to it, to the fact that Exaltations respond to the will of the Chosen, it does not make that much sense that they would be unable to deal with foes permanently. The Celestial Exaltations were designed to battle the Primordials and win, whether that meant binding or killing.
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But they still can. For ghosts, you kill them if you fill their health track with aggravated damage and they are permanently destroyed, for nearly all other spirits, you just kill them.

Note GET doesn't allow you to kill the unkillable, it just stops them reforming once you successfully kill them, and that's a very rare ability in WoD. Most things like that instead have the equivalent of perfect defences against being slain with niche flaws of invulnerability.

What Murder is Meat and friends mainly do is give an alternative option to trivially capture spirits and ghosts you are capable of defeating, which is harder for solars, requiring sorcery and having a limited capacity for the number you can keep prisoner at once, and it only works on weak spirits. Infernals can capture much more powerful spirits, while solars can only stop them reforming, which is actually less useful.

Edit: I've also realised that the fetish making charms allow you to craft from captured spirits.

BronzeTongue said:
That mechanic isn't really implemented though; the charms even make it actively harder to recruit people you've used them on unless you avoid them until you're on the upper end of the essence totem pole.

Even if that's the intended game design, the replacement system for the infernals isn't really there so it's functionally a nerf that needs homebrewing to manage either way.
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Demonic Primacy of Essence works on just about all creatures of darkness (it's not based on Essence), as does Verdent Emptiness Empowerment, and if they're your prisoner then you can play all sorts of tricks to get Cracked Cell Circumvention and things like Without Honour, Without Hope, and Witness to Darkness working.
 
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[X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
-[X] Check everyone for possession, including Cindy
-[X] Ask Dad to try for one more round of exorcism, this time to ease the passing of all these ghosts
 
Alratan said:
Demonic Primacy of Essence works on just about all creatures of darkness (it's not based on Essence), as does Verdent Emptiness Empowerment, and if they're your prisoner then you can play all sorts of tricks to get Cracked Cell Circumvention and things like Without Honour, Without Hope, and Witness to Darkness working.
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That's missing the point of what I'm saying.

The baseline banish puts them in someone else's hell as a 1 dot effect. You need to be strong enough to have your own hell before recruitment is an option for people you use it on. As a recruitment tool it's actively counterproductive until you've reached the point where it's almost superfluous.

Also, the FAQ mostly shrugs about souls being sapient enough to break out, and d doesn't say anything about personality being the same. This is at least 2 levels of homebrew anyway, so strict adherence isn't super necessary.

If it's easier to manage there's plenty of space in exactly what's being said by the charm to make the change without being game breaking.
 
[X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
-[X] Check everyone for possession, including Cindy
 
Murder is meat clearly rips apart the spirit into tiny little pieces too small to do anything or ever reincorporate themselves then dooms the remaining bits to the hells to be slowly absorbed down into power over the next 10,000 years. It an exalted killing charm you do not come back from that. infernal have plenty of other charms to capture beings in the hells for later use if they want.
 
At the end of the day if I were to rule that Murder is Meat is not a spirit killer I think a lot of people would try to get one home-brewed, just because SV does not like to have a class of enemies that cannot be permanently dealt with and I am just not sure if adjudicating would be worth the amount of discussion it would generate.I would rather just say 'yes you guys can have a spirit killer' and move on.
 
We can live without spirit-killers.

We have indirect options, like asking the Ankou to do its job, or once Dresden finds out about the super-prison island we have that.
 
Artemis1992 said:
That leaves me with the general impression that facing Kattrin as soon as possible is still the best course of action. We can't predict what Capri will do or where, but we can track her somewhat and if we don't act against her we will either be her next target or fail to stop her from achieving her other plans.
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Some points:
1) Using Lydia as "a person who was possessed by Capricorpus" as a focus for the Crown will let us find them at any time. Ambushing them is possible, and totally something we'll be doing next.
2) Facing Kattrin now is attractive. Drop MIchael, Lydia and Cindy off, then go for her with Gard, Dresden if he's available (or some employees of Gard's if he's not), and Mouse (possibly) . Because all the arguments for why we should do it as soon as possible still stand.
 
Yog said:
Some points:
1) Using Lydia as "a person who was possessed by Capricorpus" as a focus for the Crown will let us find them at any time. Ambushing them is possible, and totally something we'll be doing next.
2) Facing Kattrin now is attractive. Drop MIchael, Lydia and Cindy off, then go for her with Gard, Dresden if he's available (or some employees of Gard's if he's not), and Mouse (possibly) . Because all the arguments for why we should do it as soon as possible still stand.
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I have no doubt that we can find the Capricorpus, but only once.
If she is currently in a part of the NeverNever we don't want to touch we have wasted the question. She, unlike Kattrin, can be uncorporeal, extradimensional and move damn fast without our knowledge.
 
Honestly, going
Artemis1992 said:
I have no doubt that we can find the Capricorpus, but only once.
If she is currently in a part of the NeverNever we don't want to touch we have wasted the question. She, unlike Kattrin, can be uncorporeal, extradimensional and move damn fast without our knowledge.
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Which is why we ask the crown for "where does Capricorpus plans to be within the next week". That gives us a good option for ambush.
 
[X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
-[X] Check everyone for possession, including Cindy
 
BronzeTongue said:
I'm not enthused about more debt either, but we can't expect to get things for free. If we want services we need to pay for them, and being slippery about agreeing to do so does us no favors.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to save by avoiding it. If we're planning to put the effort in anyway then not saying so up front is basically just reserving the right to screw the wyrm over if we feel like it, which he should know.

Narrative time or not, the characters shouldn't fail to respond to their own interests and conditions to move the plot along.
A prolonged negotiation would be bad, but tossing a minimum "crafting effort of X scale" line fixes the specifics of what we're offering and does this the right way without slowing us down much.

Especially since if things are pretty much as they appear he'll respond to our request by asking us to pay him anyway, so we're just skipping ahead one round of the conversation.

This should be a cheaper fare than the first one though, since we're asking him to take us somewhere safe(ish) and not to hunt down a possessed pseudo-demigod.
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This is not getting stuff for free.
We acknowledge there's a debt, but we just arent going to keep racking up promises before starting on the first, because it devalues the value of our promises AND it looks tacky.

IC we know very little about the elemental's wants, needs and desires.
Whether it would prefer things of beauty or weapons, if there is some sort of taboo it would prefer exercised.
Or if it would just prefer to be owed a favor in defending its home.

Wait until we actually come back here in the coming week.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Sep 17, 2022 at 2:46 PM, finished with 71 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
    -[X] Check everyone for possession, including Cindy
    [X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
    [X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
    -[X] Have Michael check and Gard doublecheck everyone for possession or anything else
    -[X] Thank the elemental, affirm your agreement, and ask it to get you to an Undertown exit. Empathy Excellency -1 Essence
    -[X] Have Gard call Hendricks for pickup once you have cell service. Take everyone home to Casa Carpenter.
    -[X] HMP on Lydia's phone. Look for items of potential relevance and her father's phone number. -1 Essence
    -[X] Contact, in order, Father Forthill to find out the progress of things with Dresden, then Lydia's father
    -[X] Clorox bath soak for an hour 45 minutes
    -[X] Keep updated on Kattrin's car's movements
    [X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
    -[X] Have Michael check and Gard doublecheck everyone for possession or anything else
    -[X] Thank the elemental, affirm your agreement, and ask it to get you to an Undertown exit. Empathy Excellency -1 Essence
    —[X] Offer to craft one high quality mundane personal item at a later date in exchange for this service.
    -[X] Have Gard call Hendricks for pickup once you have cell service. Take everyone home to Casa Carpenter.
    -[X] HMP on Lydia's phone. Look for items of potential relevance and her father's phone number. -1 Essence
    -[X] Contact, in order, Father Forthill to find out the progress of things with Dresden, then Lydia's father
    -[X] Clorox bath soak for an hour 45 minutes
    -[X] Keep updated on Kattrin's car's movements
    [X] Agree that it's more important to get everyone to safety
    -[X] Check everyone for possession, including Cindy
    -[X] Ask Dad to try for one more round of exorcism, this time to ease the passing of all these ghosts
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uju32 said:
This is not getting stuff for free.
We acknowledge there's a debt, but we just arent going to keep racking up promises before starting on the first, because it devalues the value of our promises AND it looks tacky.

IC we know very little about the elemental's wants, needs and desires.
Whether it would prefer things of beauty or weapons, if there is some sort of taboo it would prefer exercised.
Or if it would just prefer to be owed a favor in defending its home.

Wait until we actually come back here in the coming week.
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Your vote makes no mention of that, it just asks for stuff.

You're still drawing a weird distinction here. The difference between a debt we have every intention to repay and a promise of repayment is that one acknowledges the repayment out loud where other people can hear it and respond.

If you're serious about paying him back, which we should be if we want good long term relations and access to his dragon nest, then saying it costs nothing extra and follows through on the norms expected of this kind of interaction.

Trying to avoid those norms looks sketchy because the only reason to do it is to duck the bill to one extent or another.

You're not wrong about it looking a little tacky to stack promises, but it's better than trying to brush past debt.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Your vote makes no mention of that, it just asks for stuff.

You're still drawing a weird distinction here. The difference between a debt we have every intention to repay and a promise of repayment is that one acknowledges the repayment out loud where other people can hear it and respond.

If you're serious about paying him back, which we should be if we want good long term relations and access to his dragon nest, then saying it costs nothing extra and follows through on the norms expected of this kind of interaction.

Trying to avoid those norms looks sketchy because the only reason to do it is to duck the bill to one extent or another.

You're not wrong about it looking a little tacky to stack promises, but it's better than trying to brush past debt.
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Its not mentioned because its both tacky and time consuming to adjudicate right this moment.
Not to mention potentially insulting if the elemental chooses to look at it as a gift and mark of its generosity towards someone its hoping to cultivate as a friend/ally instead of a business transaction, and you then offered payment.

Sometimes favors are just favors that people remember and repay in kind down the line.

We havent formally acknowledged debt for Harry Dresden bailing us out during the Splattercon events.
Or for coming to rescue us from Splattercon, or running interferemce with the White Council. Or saving little Harry's life from Kravos, or his sanity from Lasciel. It doesnt mean the debt doesnt exist.

We arent Fae. Neither is the entity we are currently dealing with.
Not everything has to be boiled down to immediate numbers and calculated measures of value, and certainly not immediately.

EDIT
Maybe its a cultural thing. But this is not something that demands immediate adjudication.
Its part of the soft exchange of favors that lubricate society among the non-fae.
The fae have their own rules.
 
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