Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

During Summer Knight, Dresden still took the time to destress with the Alphas before taking them to war.
During Dead Beat, when he could literally feel the Darkhallow forming, Dresden took the time to summon and bind Sue the zombie T-rex instead of just YOLOing himself into the area where he could feel the ritual being worked.

I know its a cliche at this point, and I might be overusing the phrase, but its worth remembering: Haste is not speed.
A planned, deliberate assault that starts later can and will often make more progress faster, than a hurried effort with insufficient resources in magic and people.
There's the thing though nothing that we've done so far seems to have actually made anything fucking easier except giving our enemies more time to do stuff which is always bad. We are not a mage or at least not a witch that benefits from the build-up phase as much as actual Wizards do but Sandra is an actual wizard so this is really bad.

Exalts aren't meant to do the slow buildup thing except for in an infrastructural sense. We do not have the magical abilities necessary to benefit from long preparation ever at least not in comparison to a prepared Warlock.

That is where the fundamental disconnect seems to be we are not actually going to ever be in a better position here no matter how far into this this goes there is no way we get into a better position unless it's we have more Essence and more Health levels but that's really not amazingly helpful.

The closer this gets to completion the more likely it is to work in Sandra's favor and be extremely more difficult for us the fact that she managed to get this ritual off at all is a failing she should have been dead already.
 
Sleeper agent wont know it themselves until the mind command triggers in the middle of a ritual.
Sleeper agent would have attacked us on sight. Like Little Tommy did.
We have a good idea of how Sandra's mind fuckery shit works, and it doesnt do delayed activation.

Not to mention that we interviewed him on the phone while rocking literally most of our social buffs and boosters..

EDIT
Again, this guy is why we were able to track down Frankie and stop the attack on Club Xanadu.
If he was working for Sandra, he wouldnt have told us anything. Nor does he show up in Katie House's talk of Sandra's friends and followers.

The math does not math.
 
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There's the thing though nothing that we've done so far seems to have actually made anything fucking easier except giving our enemies more time to do stuff which is always bad. We are not a mage or at least not a witch that benefits from the build-up phase as much as actual Wizards do but Sandra is an actual wizard so this is really bad.

Exalts aren't meant to do the slow buildup thing except for in an infrastructural sense. We do not have the magical abilities necessary to benefit from long preparation ever at least not in comparison to a prepared Warlock.

That is where the fundamental disconnect seems to be we are not actually going to ever be in a better position here no matter how far into this this goes there is no way we get into a better position unless it's we have more Essence and more Health levels but that's really not amazingly helpful.

The closer this gets to completion the more likely it is to work in Sandra's favor and be extremely more difficult for us the fact that she managed to get this ritual off at all is a failing she should have been dead already.

This is an exception, as if we can trigger a rainstorm and flood the tunnels we'll be at a massive advantage due to RDV.
 
This is an exception, as if we can trigger a rainstorm and flood the tunnels we'll be at a massive advantage due to RDV.
It is it is an exception that's why both votes go forward to say do that but one of them just says wait an extra 6 hours for the vampires to be able to move in a somewhat safer manner which is really really tone-deaf at this point. Yes our vampire lackeys that are only working with us because they are loyal to a monster need to be perfectly safe while transitioning into underground tunnels where it doesn't matter if it's fucking daytime.
 
It is it is an exception that's why both votes go forward to say do that but one of them just says wait an extra 6 hours for the vampires to be able to move in a somewhat safer manner which is really really tone-deaf at this point. Yes our vampire lackeys that are only working with us because they are loyal to a monster need to be perfectly safe while transitioning into underground tunnels where it doesn't matter if it's fucking daytime.

It is not about being perfectly safe, it is about getting them at all. Those vampires would die in sunlight, no exceptions, none of them are old enough to have learned how to take cover in the shadow of their own flesh masks.
 
Since it hasn't come up in a while: Are we going to release the Solar Exaltation? Cause having a spare Exalt around to share the workload is looking pretty good right now.
 
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This, however isn't a reason to do literally every sude quest. We Need to trust in our allies, if we don't then why bring then in the first place?

It also gives future enemies a way to set up without interference.
1) Those sidequests often have a bearing on the main quest, in the information they provide and the allies they reveal.
Ignoring them often represents a cost that comes up to bite us. I still remember ignoring what turned out to be the Will of Kakuri near the barrels, and Leinth bringing up the issue but us choosing not to pursue it.


2) OOC?
Sidequests are also often a significant factor in determining what your ending XP is.
Which is something that everyone has a major interest in pumping as high as possible.
 
Solar =/= Good.

They are as much the problem as a solution. Doubly so since it also releases a Dusk Caste Abyssal.
But. We're really short staffed right now and have a bunch of heroic mortals on speed dial. And no Solar that qualifies is going to be cool with the world ending, it's what happens after that we might disagree with.

I'm fine rolling those dice if it means North America doesn't die.
 
@uju32
The fundamental issue is that Molly is a melee-specced Exalt, not a Wizard.

We are never going to be in a better position than when we have the element of surprise and get in our enemy's face.

I can't argue much right now, at work, but I'll say I stick wigh my plan and I believe for Molly moving faster is better, even here and now.
 
To be honest, I read the "-[] Try to rally those vampires in outward-facing positions who you still know to be loyalists" vote in that we try to shout "I'm on your side" at the loyalists within the outer parts of the tunnels, as we charge in.

Not that we try to gather Reds from all over the city during the day.

Me too, I thought this was *what will you do while storming the castle*.

People are dying because of the curse yes, but there is the fact that if you do not stop this tens of millions will die. So if you think acting at sunset will meaningfully improve the odds of the gate not bursting open that will be worth the harm and the deaths from now until then. Is it cold, yes, you literally have ice water running though your veins and this pings none of your intimacies.

Except it's literally the opposite, us going now is way more likely to not let Sandra finish, and the poor people that will have to suffer from the curse in the mean time are not the priority compared to the tens if millions if we wait.

You really arent paying Sandra sufficient respect as a threat in proposing that we split the party to try this
And you should.
You really should.

You really aren't paying Sandra sufficient respect as a threat by giving her six more hours to prepare for us.

And you should.
You really should.

Two can play that game.

So essentially the world is going to end and we need to stop the ritual asap but we are busy.....helping granny cross the street.

That's how the whole Vagus trip feels like tbh.

No, we're not busy helping Granny down the street… we're busy falling for the obvious distraction the big bad put here for us that has *distraction* written on it in flaming pink ten foot tall letters.

Because in reflection, it's very likely that's what the chaos curse is for, a distraction to delay those that would want to stop Sandra.

It is not about being perfectly safe, it is about getting them at all. Those vampires would die in sunlight, no exceptions, none of them are old enough to have learned how to take cover in the shadow of their own flesh masks.

They're just not worth it in that case.
 
OOC?
Sidequests are also often a significant factor in determining what your ending XP is.
Which is something that everyone has a major interest in pumping as high as possible.
That is just wrong.

It doesn't matter how many XP per arc we get.

I've been playing with DP for well over 5 years by now and enemies are in the vast majority of cases level-adjusted.

Being objectivly stronger doesn't make the game easier, it only brings the end of the quest closer.
 
There is something to be said about speed and haste and the difference thereof why do you want to cut it so close to the actual ritual. She has a timeline that is going to be finished at that point why would you let your enemy dictate the timeline of the confrontation ever what is the idea behind that.
Her Crown-confirmed timeline is for 12AM. Theres a reason Molly is taking the time to do things properly.

The entire plan you are voting for consists of leaving half our specialists behind, and assaulting a fortified defended location while down on Health, Essence and troops, while an enemy's global debuff spell is still running.
Its haste, not speed.

You are literally taking every possible malus possible.
Also when we're in the tunnels we can just flare our anima outright to be able to spot literally everything. There is no magical phenomenon or physical phenomenon I'm not going to escape our site once it's up.
Not how it works.
Its a surprise negator, not a trap detector. It will prevent you personally being surprised by an attack, it wont tell you that there's an attacker beforehand, or a trap. And it wont defend any of the troops you bring with you either.

Thats where having a sensor kinda helps.


Finally Dresden is most useful making sure the ritual works. Fire near the corpse puppet Reds is a bad combo it doesn't matter if there are enemies burning your allies alive because you're wizard isn't super careful with all the fire not great also fire and enclosed spaces not great just because we can become immune for one Essence doesn't mean it's a good idea. Seriously dresden's main means of attack and defense are really not good for enclosed spaces pulses of like concrete cracking force and fire in enclosed spaces is a no-go.
Red Court vampires are not corpse puppets. Those are Blacks.

Dresden is our combat engineer. The only person here with a professional understanding of magic rituals and magic bindings, and the only Mage equivalent who can do something about it. Leaving him behind when going to deal with someone fucking around with a magic ritual and magically bound demon is literally professional malfeasance.


Fire is Dresden's favorite offensive spell. Its not his only offensive spell.
Forzare/Wind has a honored place in his repertoire as well. So does pure force. I am not worried about his use of Fire underground; he's not actually stupid.


Also what you said about the essence is just plain false we've never had a combat that required more than two Excellency uses even at the most expensive this combat can be we would still have enough to continue to fight multiple fights because our Excellency last four turns.
Thats because we have never had to fight through a fortified tunnel complex before.
All our previous fights have been straightforward slugfests in the open.
There is the potential for multiple significant engagements in here.


Lydia's is the same way by the way in combat We Roll 18 and she rolls 16 in combat stats the idea that Harry or Tiffany both of which can just be killed with regular bullets because none of their combat abilities allow them to natively block or Parry bullets. They have to use magic to defend against and with our current essence we could fight for a solid 12 rounds and still have leftovers unless we were just absolutely pissing away our Essence during a fight we can definitely do more than one.
Your math does not math.

===
Lydia has maximum 7/7 Essence left right now.

She needs 2m for Steelskin + Skin of Stone to get her to maximum soak, and another 2m for Thoughts of Oak Defense(mental defense) + Flawless Hunter's Eye (Perception booster for underground fight). That leaves her with 3m of Essence for everything else, which is a maximum of 3 turns of Excellency use to fight through I dunno how many miles of tunnels.

So most of the time she's going to be rolling 6 dice of offense. Like everyone else.
===
Molly currently has 10/15m Essence and 14/15 Health, with 1 unhealed Agg damage.

She needs to save 2m, 2wp for Shintai activation when its necessary.
Then she needs VLE + Steelskin = 2m for soak. All Things Betray + Hellscry Chakra = 2m for Perception boosts for fighting underground at night. 1m for single activation of EIPP against a shaping attack.

All of a sudden, you have 3m of Essence left for everything else. And your budget looks rather tight.
Which is why Molly is largely going to go without Excellency use unless actually necessary.
===
My dude, Harry is the only person here who has actually been in a war.

The Summer-Winter War of a couple years ago had him and the Alphas on the battlefield, threading the needle with ranged casters and melee combat. They did fine. The events of Dead Beat had him on the same battlefield as hundreds of superzombies and spectres. He was the victor in that one too.

Hell, in this quest, we sent him and Michael into the NeverNever to break a ritual setup by the Will of Kakuri.
They both walked away from that too, uninjured.
This infantilization of the dude is strange.


Now if you're going to try and claim that Sandra is going to be tougher than a literal abomination of the last creation and God of War I'm going to have to say no.
Literally six months of preptime and the favor of her faction? Yes.
You dont need to be personally the heaviest heavyweight of your faction if you can tag in actual heavy hitters to actually do the fighty bits for you.

Dresden may have been the planner and prime mover of events, but he wasnt the heaviest hitter of the war party that went to Chitchen Itza. His godmother was the heaviest personal hitter of the group. And under the circumstances, both Murphy and Sanya were deadlier than he was because they had Swords.

Duke Skavis literally incarnated a Walker on the spot with no preptime by cutting one throat.
Do you seriously think that someone like Sandra Marling, who has been preparing for this for months now, and actually has institutional backing among the Outsiders, to the point of being trusted by Nemesis, is less dangerous?
 
@uju32
The fundamental issue is that Molly is a melee-specced Exalt, not a Wizard.
We are never going to be in a better position than when we have the element of surprise and get in our enemy's face.

I can't argue much right now, at work, but I'll say I stick wigh my plan and I believe for Molly moving faster is better, even here and now.
Molly is an Exalt though. The DnD fighter/wizard divide doesnt really matter as much in her case

As I see it, charging face first into prepared defenses might give the illusion of progress, and certainly satisfies the urge to Do Something, but it isnt the appropriate response here. Its not like her bosses wont have told her about what Molly is known to have done, and she wouldnt have prepared appropriately.

I mean, are you even sure that we can achieve tactical surprise?
I mean, whatever spirit that tipped her off to stage the RPG ambush might still be following Molly around, and we would have no idea because we dont have the senses.


That is just wrong.
It doesn't matter how many XP per arc we get.
I've been playing with DP for well over 5 years by now and enemies are in the vast majority of cases level-adjusted.
Being objectivly stronger doesn't make the game easier, it only brings the end of the quest closer.
XP =/= Stronger.

Molly's growth in Essence strength is not under player control, and while there are charms that will make her a bigger battlefield threat(the arsenal charm and the second shintai charm, for example), at this point we are beginning to look at breadth of abilities, not just depth.
 
Her Crown-confirmed timeline is for 12AM. Theres a reason Molly is taking the time to do things properly.

The entire plan you are voting for consists of leaving half our specialists behind, and assaulting a fortified defended location while down on Health, Essence and troops, while an enemy's global debuff spell is still running.
Its haste, not speed.

You are literally taking every possible malus possible.

Not how it works.
Its a surprise negator, not a trap detector. It will prevent you personally being surprised by an attack, it wont tell you that there's an attacker beforehand, or a trap. And it wont defend any of the troops you bring with you either.

Thats where having a sensor kinda helps.


Red Court vampires are not corpse puppets. Those are Blacks.

Dresden is our combat engineer. The only person here with a professional understanding of magic rituals and magic bindings, and the only Mage equivalent who can do something about it. Leaving him behind when going to deal with someone fucking around with a magic ritual and magically bound demon is literally professional malfeasance.


Fire is Dresden's favorite offensive spell. Its not his only offensive spell.
Forzare/Wind has a honored place in his repertoire as well. So does pure force. I am not worried about his use of Fire underground; he's not actually stupid.



Thats because we have never had to fight through a fortified tunnel complex before.
All our previous fights have been straightforward slugfests in the open.
There is the potential for multiple significant engagements in here.



Your math does not math.

===
Lydia has maximum 7/7 Essence left right now.

She needs 2m for Steelskin + Skin of Stone to get her to maximum soak, and another 2m for Thoughts of Oak Defense(mental defense) + Flawless Hunter's Eye (Perception booster for underground fight). That leaves her with 3m of Essence for everything else, which is a maximum of 3 turns of Excellency use to fight through I dunno how many miles of tunnels.

So most of the time she's going to be rolling 6 dice of offense. Like everyone else.
===
Molly currently has 10/15m Essence and 14/15 Health, with 1 unhealed Agg damage.

She needs to save 2m, 2wp for Shintai activation when its necessary.
Then she needs VLE + Steelskin = 2m for soak. All Things Betray + Hellscry Chakra = 2m for Perception boosts for fighting underground at night. 1m for single activation of EIPP against a shaping attack.

All of a sudden, you have 3m of Essence left for everything else. And your budget looks rather tight.
Which is why Molly is largely going to go without Excellency use unless actually necessary.
===
My dude, Harry is the only person here who has actually been in a war.

The Summer-Winter War of a couple years ago had him and the Alphas on the battlefield, threading the needle with ranged casters and melee combat. They did fine. The events of Dead Beat had him on the same battlefield as hundreds of superzombies and spectres. He was the victor in that one too.

Hell, in this quest, we sent him and Michael into the NeverNever to break a ritual setup by the Will of Kakuri.
They both walked away from that too, uninjured.
This infantilization of the dude is strange.



Literally six months of preptime and the favor of her faction? Yes.
You dont need to be personally the heaviest heavyweight of your faction if you can tag in actual heavy hitters to actually do the fighty bits for you.

Dresden may have been the planner and prime mover of events, but he wasnt the heaviest hitter of the war party that went to Chitchen Itza. His godmother was the heaviest personal hitter of the group. And under the circumstances, both Murphy and Sanya were deadlier than he was because they had Swords.

Duke Skavis literally incarnated a Walker on the spot with no preptime by cutting one throat.
Do you seriously think that someone like Sandra Marling, who has been preparing for this for months now, and actually has institutional backing among the Outsiders, to the point of being trusted by Nemesis, is less dangerous?
No because what you're suggesting would mean there would be swords of the Cross here she would be an Abomination so far from Humanity that God would immediately send around the sword of the Cross to intercede on Humanity's behalf to prevent the ending of the world. What you're suggesting is on the level of the Dark Hollow there is no way for her to be that powerful.

Why in the world would you piss all of your essence away on defenses and extra abilities before you need them holy shit that is literally the least economical use of our essence I can think of fucken hell.

Also heard somebody Walkers we killed A walker in a single round of a combat. What you're suggesting is that she summon the Command Staff of The Outsiders to meet the blade of someone who can just outright kill them and eat them and if they do not do well enough continue to fight them indefinitely because they give more Essence then she's spending to kill them. It would have to be a walker for it to be powerful enough to warrant this level of concern because we can mow through lesser Outsiders instantly.

By this reasoning Dresden should be unbeatable he's had years to focus and found his abilities he is a wizard of profound power and not insignificant skill but he's not is he not just the personal flaws but just in power and knowledge. This is the trade-off of Being Human your potential to grow but you have to grow the level of Investments and you are talking about Investments at that point would mean she's a puppet and that immediately opens up to Heavenly intervention so she cannot have that level of ability
 
Because if the spell isnt down, you guarantee that the bad luck portion of the bad luck spell will kick in.
See shit like the car that spontaneosly exploded, killing two police officers.
Shaping defense.

Even setting that aside it's not one or the other here. He can run his ritual while we go down to the tunnels if he's got the juice for it. Even if it doesn't help us much in the end it still needs to happen.

But we only have so much time and at some point we need to take what we have and act. Showing up when we think we ritual is going to start is reckless; we have no margin and everything has to go perfectly to avoid disaster.

Its not last minute. We have a timeline we've been working with that was Crown confirmed.
Precipitate action is haste, not speed.
What are you talking about? Her timeline is nightfall, which is when we'd be showing up. If she's in the middle of her ritual when we show up that's a serious strategic error.


You are leaving roughly 40% of our recruited forces behind, inviting defeat in detail AND delay if we get bogged down in the tunnels. You are having the Reds attempt to move in daylight with a strategic bad luck spell active, which means they step out into cloud and they almost certainly get hammered by fortuitous sunlight. Or their car gets hit by another car and explodes.
To be frank; I don't give a damn about the reds. If they all die we don't even have to clean up afterwards. We need to be moving and forcing Sandra to react instead of working through her checklist.

We've got plenty of guys, and would have more if this sudden desire for minions had shown up any of the times we talked about getting them earlier in the trip. Timing is more important than having class D personnel on hand.
 
Sleeper agent would have attacked us on sight. Like Little Tommy did.
We have a good idea of how Sandra's mind fuckery shit works, and it doesnt do delayed activation.
Dunno, that would be a nice trumpcard to deploy in a devastating strike. Its not like she can't have divination or an outsider do it.
Solar =/= Good.

They are as much the problem as a solution. Doubly so since it also releases a Dusk Caste Abyssal.
I think it is still worth. I rather have the gamble and get a great result rather than not trying at all.
 
Since it hasn't come up in a while: Are we going to release the Solar Exaltation? Cause having a spare Exalt around to share the workload is looking pretty good right now.
Did you need to kick this button in the middle of an already charged discussion about what we're actually doing right now? We agreed to put a pin in this because it wasn't going anywhere and we were just making a mess of the thread.

We have no new information and the situation hasn't changed or come to a head yet. Why do you think this is going to end any other way than pages of ultimately pointless argument?
 
Why do you think this is going to end any other way than pages of ultimately pointless argument

Arguments that would distract for the actually already problematic situation right now at that.

Way I see it, we have a bomb counting down from ten minutes in front of us, and for some reasons we want to wait 9 minute and 59 seconds before beginning to defuse it.

We are not in Final fantasy 7, the apocalypse is not going to wait for us to finish our side quest before striking.
 
Arguments that would distract for the actually already problematic situation right now at that.

Way I see it, we have a bomb counting down from ten minutes in front of us, and for some reasons we want to wait 9 minute and 59 seconds before beginning to defuse it.

We are not in Final fantasy 7, the apocalypse is not going to wait for us to finish our side quest before striking.
Yeah.

I mean, I know I'm going to be part of the problem here. It's just that I actually care about the choice we make on this and have been around this site long enough to know that things repeated often enough without opposition in a thread eventually become known truths regardless of how correct they are.

So if the other side on this starts posting about how good an idea it is I'm going to start replying, and that is going to go exactly as it has the last three times we've done this.

But we are looking at a dirty bomb intended to irradiate most of the continent, so I'd really rather not.
 
Arguments that would distract for the actually already problematic situation right now at that.

Way I see it, we have a bomb counting down from ten minutes in front of us, and for some reasons we want to wait 9 minute and 59 seconds before beginning to defuse it.

One small point as far as you know the bomb goes off at midnight, sunset is several hours before that.
 
Did you need to kick this button in the middle of an already charged discussion about what we're actually doing right now? We agreed to put a pin in this because it wasn't going anywhere and we were just making a mess of the thread.

We have no new information and the situation hasn't changed or come to a head yet. Why do you think this is going to end any other way than pages of ultimately pointless argument?
Sorry about that, I fell behind for a while cause of work, and kind of skimmed to catch up, so I wasn't aware of any agreement to table the discussion. I just noticed that right now would be a good time to have backup is all.
 
I think we should cause a flash rainstorm and then leave Harry behind to keep the ritual going and the rain falling.

If there's water flowing through the storm drains, Molly can teleport to bypass defensive hard points. No one else can. That makes them a liability except as a distraction or the pin enemy troops on the perimeter.

What we should do is go in alone while the Reds, Lydia, and some cyber-bakemono attack the perimeter. Then, while they're focused on that threat we jump right to the heart of the tunnel complex and attack.
 
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