fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Yes most career politicians likely have 3 dots in leadership. Seeing as 3 dots is when you are supposed to be able to make a living on just that skill.
Last edited:
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Yes, agreed. Both Lea and Mab have demonstrated the ability to seal away memories.
Thats not the same thing as sealing away abilities though. And the previous update seems to say that it was the magic that was sealed/messed with, not the memories of using it.
That appears to be beyond known Fae capabilities.
=====
COMMENTARY
Interesting that Olivia mentions talking to her father about this, but not her mother.
Dead or divorced or missing? Because I suspect that has a link here, since most magic in the Dresden Files is believed to be inherited from the mother's line.
Its worth remembering that Harry is 6 foot 9 inches; the same height as LeBron James.
Dude is physically intimidating, even before his reputation.
I wonder how big Olivia's loans are; she cant have been in school for more than 2 years at her age.
And isnt she supposed to be a dancer?
Is she studying dance or working as a dancer? Or both?
Loling at cake magic.
That said, Maria is supposed to take the lead on this. Its her husband to be, not ours.
We're just supposed to be there as backup and support.
Thing is that the White Council doesnt want to be a government. It wasnt designed to be a government.
Part of the reason they were established as they are was to insulate them from rule, and the temptations of power.
To quote Butcher:
Thats a fundamental conflict in their mission statement that colors their relationship with nonmembers.
The White Night murders started in other parts of the US, and are probably underway right now.
The political pressures in the White Court and the Black Council plots that instigated them still exist, so they will probably still happen. The people who did it arent the type to be dissuaded easily.
They'll just target non-Cauldron members when they get to Chicago, I suspect.
While Olivia is a dancer she is also taking college courses, though Molly does not know in what and she gets the feeling that Olivia much prefers the dancing to whatever she is studying.
- Location
- Germany
Kinda an issue, if you want to be the police, but none of the other state-institutions, and also in no way touchable by the people you are policing.
If we take that approach seriously the problem moves from "the White Council isn't working as intended due to the low amount of real Wizards relative to the amount of minor talents, caused by recent demograpic changes and singular events like the Kemmler-Hunts and the Vampire War" towards "the White Council can't work".
So, let's actually math this out.
Right now we have Craft 3 + Dex 4 or Int 4 = 7 base dice. Multiply by 2 for Excellency. That's 14 dice. Add 2 dice with WHWH, that's 16 dice. Ones do not subtract successes because it's a key ability. We would almost certainly be rolling DC3, because TLF (-3 DC), BSM (-1 DC) and CCC (-3 DC) put together mean that the base difficulty would need to be higher than 10 for the result to be above the bare minimum. Since this is a social event, actually, and the purpose of the thanksgiving dinner is building comradery and social engineering, it can be argued that Demonic Primacy of Essence would also apply (since we'd be cooking for whampires and ghouls primarily). Autosuccesses are sadly not a thing here, because otherwise, we'd just be getting those. The average number of successes is 14.4. Good, but we can do better.
We are one XP purchase away from thanksgiving, assuming XP spending per month. Since we bought the exorcism magic, we don't have much to spend. We have the following options:
1) Buy Craft 4 for 4 XP. That gives us 18 dice total, and an average of 16.2 successes.
2) Buy Alchemical Ability Enchancer for Craft for 2 XP, which makes us having a specialty, and, if we already have a specialty, adds 2 dice. The specialty rules, as I understand, are "10s count as 2 successes". With 16 dice, this gives us an average of 17.6 successes.
3) Buy a specialty in Chemistry (or Alchemy, or Cooking, I think either one is appropriate). Not sure how much a specialty costs. @DragonParadox ? The effects would be the same as with the potion (see second option).
4) Buy both the specialty and the potion recipe. This gives us 18 dice with a specialty and a 19.7 average successes. Close, but not enough to reliably overcome another degree of legendarity.
I think Ability enhancer: Craft would be our best bet. When acting within Mechanics specialization we'd be able to hit close to 20+ successes, and for cooking we'd get 15+ reliably.
Also, as a side note, if we get Dex 5 + Craft 5, WHWH, reduce difficulty to 3, down the ability enhancing potion, and act within our specialty, we'll be rolling 24 dice for an average of 26.4 successes. If we further add two enchantment 2 bonuses (one for dexterity and one for craft) for 4 more dice total, we'll be getting 30.8 successes on average.
And I am not even bringing up trying to craft in our shintai, since, as I understand it, it's "take the lowest of dexterity and intelligence". If it's just dexterity for at least some types of crafting, that's +4 more dice, for the total of 35.2 average successes.
Meaning, that in principle, once we go down the lane deep enough, "this is so good, it probably breaks reality" is totally within our reach. I wonder what a 35+ successes cake looks and feels like. It would probably make mortals explode or something. Or cause spontaneous magical awakening.
Hmm.
College courses + dancing, and she wants to add magical vigilante to the list.
Methinks she's overestimating herself.
They charge no taxes, make no laws besides the Seven, conscript no troops, and have no requirements regarding code of conduct for magicals. They are as minimalist as an organization can be. While I do sympathize with the lesser talents, and believe that there's a better way, they cant complain about Council demands, precisely because there arent any.
The Council's worked for a thousand years so far. The cracks only began to show pretty recently.
A lot of this is a consequence of the Council being a secret squirrel organization that also has to balance information control, the political sovereignty of nationstates and the pitfalls of political and magical power for them.
So a lot of the grumbling outside is from people who know fuckall about whats happening.
Most lesser talents are only ever going to see the consequences of failure, and not when the Council saves their asses from getting sacrificed in an Ascension ritual by the next Kemmler, or intimidates the Reds or Whites into drawing back on expansion plans for the next half century.
Olivia might be under the effect of magic like hers, only much stronger, in regards to her mother. Incidentally, Exorcism ritual clears this sort of mental compulsions, if I understand correctly.
The problem is that, as part of their mission, they also seem to be preventing natural wizard / gifted governing organizations from forming. Small covens slip through, but something like Hogwarts that actually actively seeks out gifted youths and trains them and then later organizes them through their lives via alumni organizations and such are absent completely.
They are a police of a society without a government.
The thing is even if the Council does not make laws it still enforces the Seven and grey areas explicitly exist in their enforcement which the Council decides on as it pleases with zero accountability, not to mention that it acts in a diplomatic and military posture vis a vis the other powers of the accords with... also no accountability. When it negotiates a withdraw from I don't know Austin Texas leaving the White Court in charge as the default greatest powers the local minor talents do not get a vote, they would be lucky to get a warning.
1) Wrong question.
How doesnt matter to us; we are not a Wizard, and if its racial magic, it wouldnt help a wizard either.
What we need to know is Who: who did it, +/- who asked for it to be done.
Maybe Why.
2)Can =/= Should.
This is not Molly's marriage. She isnt going to be here at the end of the night.
If this is to go well, its better to have the spouses talk, and only intervene as necessary
===
VOTE
[X] [QUESTION] Yes
-[X][FOCUS]Seek the identities of the persons involved/responsible for sealing Olivia's magic
[X] [REVEAL] No, let her take the lead
Maria's the person getting married to this person, not Molly.
Molly isnt going to be around to do followup when they are alone and talking in private.
Its a lot more appropriate for Molly to let Maria take point, and play social safety net, than for Molly to simply take this over.
Its the same reason why you dont do a person's homework for them, but render assistance.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
You forgot the minus 2 for cooking being about as far from mechanical engineering as it's possible to get and still be crafting.
On the matter of the White Council there is also the fact that they... recruit all the wizards which means that no other organization of mortal magicians will ever be in a position to challenge them, for purely apolitical and selfless reasons of course as anyone who met Arthur Langley, the current Merlin, would be able to tell. 
Just saying after the introduction Lasciel gave Molly on Harry's relationship to the White Council and then conspiring with Ebenezer to hide her own Lawbreaking as a mortal Molly is unlikely to believe the Council is apolitical.
Just saying after the introduction Lasciel gave Molly on Harry's relationship to the White Council and then conspiring with Ebenezer to hide her own Lawbreaking as a mortal Molly is unlikely to believe the Council is apolitical.
By how I meant "in what way exactly?". I'll make this clearer. I want to know exactly what was done. We understand generalities, but I want particulars. Why, and who ordered are also important, I agree. EDIT: I added why.
Can = should here. Molly is rolling inhuman amounts of empathy dice. She can handle the explanation much better, smooth the corners, etc. She's a big scary thing that Maria knows that can handle the introduction of magic to Maria's husband to be.
Ok, fair. Buying the specialty potion is even better then.
[X] [QUESTION] Yes
-[X] preload occult excellency, and all things betray to better interpet the answer
-[X] As a stranger passes by, nearly bumping into Olivia, your eyes narrow, taking in the whole of the scene, and a question comes to the forefront of your mind "In what was exactly was the magic I am seeing twisted from its natural expression?"
-[X] You hold a lock of Olivia's hair in your hand, and cast your gaze upon it, seeking the identity of the being who distorted her magic. As soon as you get an answer, you burn it into ashes with a quickly conjured burner.
-[X] You look at Olivia's favorite earrings, glad that she chose to wear them tonight, and ask "for what reason was the magic of the owner of these earrings twisted?"
[X] [REVEAL] Yes: Write in suggestions
-[X] Empathy excellency and all things betray
-[X] Flight is a good example for visual demonstration, not too intimidating. After that, talk about what Maria can do, and what benefits there are to knowing about magic.
Last edited:
Good night guys, see you all tomorrow with magic revelations and a return to school. Isabela has been busy doing what you asked her to do. 
1)Doubt it. We rolled high enough on that Per roll.
2)Thats not actually true.
We know its not true because we see all sorts of small organizations form, and the Council doesnt lift a finger as long as none of the Seven are broken. See Charity's former cult as an example.
We explicitly know of at least six sorcerers in Chicago as of last year who have been operating unmolested for years.
The Council is fine with nonmembers.
Other organizations dont form because the Dresdenverse supernatural scene can be very cutthroat, and people trying to do as you say can get very quickly stomped by the first mid-level spook that looks in their direction.
The Council is powerful enough to take care of their own, and such anyone who qualifies is incentivized to join.
Johnnycomelately sorcerer wannabe's startup is not. He gets into a dispute with a Fae lord, or a vampire, and they all die.
It took Dresden and Ellen Mallory to set up the Paranet, and even then, it took first Dresden and the Wardens to let them grow, then after his death the explicit ongoing intervention of the White Court of vampires, Baron Marcone, and some of Odin's mercs, to keep them alive during the Fomor War.
Question is whether you define that as domestic police work, or more in the line of international treaty enforcement. Because other than the Seven, they dont appear to make laws. They dont tell you how to use your abilities, or who to associate with, or how to live.
LeFay danced along the edge for half a century allegedly.
The Council will also point out they are the ones who are actually capable and willing to go out and bleed and die for this stuff.
While most lesser talents would happily stay home and out of it(to be fair, so would many wizards
)Point of order:On the matter of the White Council there is also the fact that they... recruit all the wizards which means that no other organization of mortal magicians will ever be in a position to challenge them, for purely apolitical and selfless reasons of course as anyone who met Arthur Langley, the current Merlin, would be able to tell.
Just saying after the introduction Lasciel gave Molly on Harry's relationship to the White Council and then conspiring with Ebenezer to hide her own Lawbreaking as a mortal Molly is unlikely to believe the Council is apolitical.
They turn away more than they recruit actually, according to Dead Beat and White Night.
If you dont make the grade, you dont make it in.
Very anarcholibertarian, if you think about it.
They do, actually, as per your own quote - they are keeping wizards out of politics. Probably military too.
Question is whether you define that as domestic police work, or more in the line of international treaty enforcement. Because other than the Seven, they dont appear to make laws. They dont tell you how to use your abilities, or who to associate with, or how to live.
LeFay danced along the edge for half a century allegedly.
The Council will also point out they are the ones who are actually capable and willing to go out and bleed and die for this stuff.
While most lesser talents would happily stay home and out of it(to be fair, so would many wizards
Point of order:
They turn away more than they recruit actually, according to Dead Beat and White Night.
If you dont make the grade, you dont make it in.
Very anarcholibertarian, if you think about it.
International treaty enforcement signed by whom? It does not really matter how you twist it, there is no consent involved on the part of the talents being policed. Whether you see them as civilians in a city under occupation by a militia or the native population of some land inflicted with the treaties of outside powers they did not choose the people who have taken discretionary power of life and death over them, nor do they have any capacity to influence their policies and methods of enforcement.
The fact that most minor talents would not spontaneously enforce the Laws does not say much either, they do not have an infrastructure to enforce the Laws within. The choice is basically 'you get policed by this self-selected militia and if you do not like it make your own... without most of the people best equipped to do so because the militia recruited them'.
If someone were to say build that anyway, say someone who has inhuman arcane lore and the ability to hand out demon powers the results would no doubt be... interesting
Last edited:
It's not like Olivia casts magic by solving spell formulae; it's something she is and feels at this level. If the power was bound but the mental end was untouched she'd be running into the problem of reflexively reaching for it and pressing against the bonds.
There's also the matter of how DF magic actually works. It's a mental and spiritual thing first and learned skill second, as important as practice and knowledge are. There isn't, to my understanding, some separate part of their souls that does some materialistic energy manipulations that simply responds to their mental state.
It seems reasonable to me that binding someone on this level either requires or results in mental alterations because that's the substrate you're working with.
My opinion:
Who did it and why are far more important. How they did it is of no relevance unless we have the ability to reverse it, which we dont; requires Countermagic, and which type of countermagic depends on who it was, and what type of creature they are.
Almost as important is Why.
Could be because of White Council rules. Could be because its too great a power for Olivia to control. Could because using it will attract enemies looking for her or her bloodline. Could even be because the person who did it is using it in her place.
These are critical questions.
Details about how they did it is just curiosity. And we dont have unlimited Crown focuses.
That doesnt matter.
Molly will not be there the next time there's questions about magic in the household, or how to handle it.
Maria will.
Give Maria a fish, and she is fed for a day.
Teach her to fish, and you feed her for the rest of her life.
Same principle.
We should not be giving Maria a fish, we should be teaching her how to fish by helping her do the explanation, so she has the confidence and experience to handle this sort of thing next time it comes up, which it will.
Note that there is no Law against it. Just custom and policy. Merlin didnt put his opinions into Law.
Morgan fought in a major war iirc(either WW1, or sometime in the 19th century), and I think McCoy was active during the Indian Wars. So their success appears to not always be perfect.
There is no consent involved in most treaties by the vast majority of the world's population, from non-proliferation to IP law. They might approve of some of the aims, but they generally werent consulted, or represented by envoys of their choosing.
Most of the debts owed by the Third World were not incurred with their consent either, and yet they are on the hook for them.
And at least in modern history, attempting to commit genocide against a portion of your domestic population can get you summarily policed by the international community, whether you agree or not.
They dont have an infrastructure because they lack the power or resources to protect themselves or any recruits.
Those magic users who dont make the Council are often courted, and sometimes end up with places like the White Court and the Faerie Courts. Its not just the Council thats interested in wizards after all, or seeking them out.
Nobody's interested in running a startup in this environment.
EDIT
And its not like muggle-majority organizations dont exist.
The Venator Umborum and the Fellowship of St Giles both exist and retain effectiveness without wizard membership. So does the Inquisition. In this AU, the Shih are also a thing in the East, and there's definitely more.
This isnt the Council strangling competition (not that they wouldnt, they just dont have to). This is just a very tough startup environment without major backing, and very few people are interested in paying the price for it, or have the resources to do so.
Last edited:
I dont believe thats accurate.
Other than when Mab made him forget about Fire Magic during Small Favor, Dresden has had his magic weakened or sealed twice in the series that I can recall:
1)Fool Moon. When he pushed too hard after using wizard meth and it just failed for the rest of the book.
2)Grave Peril. When the Nightmare literally ate a chunk of his magic, and rendered him unable to use it until he murdered and consumed the Nightmare
In neither case was his knowledge or skill impaired. Just his ability, and his strength.
That suggests its possible to simply block/depower someone's magic, if you know how and are willing.
And Dresden is a White Council-class wizard, trained by a senior ex-Warden and the Blackstaff, with 9 years of training and at least 11 years of practice(5-6years expeŕience at the time of those events).
Someone like Olivia, a minor talent barely out of her teens and with no formal training, will probably be a much easier target.
And as an aside, the events of Small Favor make it clear that its possible for a powerful enough enemy to track you every time you use a particular form of magic.
Which is why Mab took away Dresden's memories of fire magic, because it would have allowed Summer's hitmen to find him when he used it.
Thats something to remember with Olivia and her Telepathy.
Someone might have been hiding her.
Last edited:
They enforce the laws lethally though, and it's made pretty clear that you only get a real investigation if you're connected.
Maybe they don't want to be a government, but if they claim the right to kill you at will for stepping out of line they're still making and enforcing demands. The fact that their requirements are in place for a good reason doesn't change the dynamic.
The first was him getting too tired to draw energy any more. It's the same as being tapped for willpower points.
The second was incredibly weird given the rest of the context, but that was still a fairly traumatic event for him. I wouldn't be surprised if had he take too long it would have resulted in mental issues.
Blocking power isn't the same as stopping someone from using it either. You can block someone from using magic by submerging them in running water, but that works by stopping them from accessing energy.
The muscles of mortal magic are emotions and thought, binding them without influencing what they're made of seems absurd.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
The Nightmare literally took bites out of his spirit, which is servere damage. Using a method like that to block someones magic is like stopping someone from shooting Guns by chopping their arms off. Would sure work, but what remains may not be functional. Dresden already had issues from just being weakened, completely depowering someone that way could well result in them being fatally damaged spiritually (resulting in permanent coma, we saw how nasty spirit damage can get).
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[X] [REVEAL] No, let her take the lead
In democratic countries treaties are generally speaking passed through parliament. One can argue that is not very representative since a lot of those treaties were enacted at a time when the world was even less democratic than it is now and indeed many of the countries which pass treaties are not democracies now, but that is a failure of representation. As for things like IMF debt they are generally taken on by the government which should in theory answer to the legislative which should answer to the people. Where that is not the case it's again a failure of democracy. Arguing that one should be fine with policing without representation because of all the other cases where it happens due to other failures of democracy does not really stand up to the principles Olivia is invoking here (rather idealistically). She also does not feel particularly represented by the other secret societies she has barely heard of in her life because why would she? Having a comparable level of individual magical power to her does not automatically make them representative of her interests.
What exactly was done to her magic is also important. Because for all we know, there can be killswitches in there. Why is important too, of course. Which is why I added that in. We can afford 3 questions. And I avoided Olivia herself as a focus.
First impressions matter a ton in situations like this. If we handle the biggest and hardest part, everything that comes next is easier. We teach Maria to fish by showing her how it's done, not by throwing her off a cliff, using your metaphor.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] [QUESTION] Yes
[X] [REVEAL] No, let her take the lead
[X] [REVEAL] No, let her take the lead