From Stone to the Stars

guys democracy and republics NEVER work out...just a fair warning...

[] [Pay] An elected council.
[] [Politics] Select one Big Man to become a Bigger Man (likely Crystal Lake)
[] [Men] Trial of Ordeal: a boy becomes a man after he proves himself in a dangerous situation
[] [Women] Trial of Age: after going through puberty, a girl is recognized as a woman.

the elected council may or may not work out, this is a gamble...
the bigger man is the start of feudal contract, and frankly I think constitutional monarchy (eventually) would be our best bet with a small but trusted council.
The trial of Ordeal would promote boy's to be wise and strong, as dangerous situations can weed out the stupid. unfortunately this is also reverse as well, so a bigger gamble.
The trail by age, well we don't want people marrying young girls, I prefer them to wait until they pass puberty...hopefully this wont have any bad rolls...

edited: People forgot about the Moratorium!!!
 
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That update made me too sad to vote.

We really, really need to deify Kaspar in some way or name a settlement after him. The guy deserves that much at least.
 
Pointless, it will fade as we advance, as wealth and civilization advances equality is strained as hierarchy sets in.
Also guys Moratorium i thought?

I don't expect that we'll have a totally egalitarian society, but it's totally possible to build a relatively egalitarian society by the standards of the ancient world. Just because ancient societies could be pretty heinous doesn't mean we should run towards oppressive heirarchies screaming at the top of our lungs.

*Roman Empire Intensifies*

"Oh, no we conquered the entire Mediterranean" is a pretty good problem to have, IMO. :V
 
[X] [Men] Trial of Acclaim: a boy becomes a man after he is recognized by a vote of his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Acclaim: a girl becomes a woman when she is recognized by a vote of her settlement.
[X] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.
[X] [Pay] An appointed member of the Big Man's Slate.
 
[x] [Men] Trial of Fatherhood: a boy becomes a man once he has children born.
[x] [Women] Trial of Acclaim: a girl becomes a woman when she is recognized by a vote of her settlement.
I am assuming that boys/girls don't get a vote, and thus by making it easier for the girl to become a woman then for a boy to become a man will grant the most amount of power for women overall.
 
[X] [Men] Trial of Acclaim: a boy becomes a man after he is recognized by a vote of his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Acclaim: a girl becomes a woman when she is recognized by a vote of her settlement.
[X] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.
[X] [Pay] An appointed member of the Big Man's Slate.
 
Uhh Guys What happened to the moratorium we voted to have literally like 1 or 2 votes ago?
Well w/e
[X] [Pay] An appointed member of the Big Man's Slate.
[X] [Politics] Select one Big Man to become a Bigger Man (likely Crystal Lake)
[X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Acclaim: a girl becomes a woman when she is recognized by a vote of her settlement.

I hope the Bigger man is someone of Kasper's line, maybe even his daughter
(Sudden want to form a matriarchy intensifies)
 
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[X] [Pay] An elected council.
[X] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.
[X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Utility: a girl becomes a woman when she becomes an asset to her settlement.

Local and regional elected councils to minimize salt. This would be gamed soon enough, but it helps mitigate anyone being too blatantly unfair.
Not good for major expansionism mind. We need more infrastructure under this model.
 
100 Turns Later, and suddenly, Kaspar's sitting on the Golden Throne.

Slates for the Slate Throne! Gold for the Gold Spirits! :V

Uhh Guys What happened to the moratorium we voted to have literally like 1 or 2 votes ago?

That's a good point. The turn was just posted, there shouldn't be any official votes happening yet, just plans and discussion.

[ ] [Pay] The head of each individual family.
[ ] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.
[ ] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[ ] [Women] Trial of Utility: a girl becomes a woman when she becomes an asset to her settlement.

You ask me, having both recognized by Utility is the best way to do it. If you want equality, then giving both men and women the same trial is the best way to do it. And having it the same in a way that grants the widest opportunity for everyone to have at least a chance at passing into adulthood in a way that ensures everyone contributes.

Voting I think is a bad option for who's an adult or not - it opens the door to the terrible possibilities surrounding adulthood.

I am assuming that boys/girls don't get a vote, and thus by making it easier for the girl to become a woman then for a boy to become a man will grant the most amount of power for women overall.

But at the expense of the men. You're just taking a problem and flipping it on its head by defining men by their breeding ability. That's a recipe for trouble, unrest, and societal imbalance.
 
But at the expense of the men. You're just taking a problem and flipping it on its head by defining men by their breeding ability. That's a recipe for trouble, unrest, and societal imbalance.
Please we all know once Men are no longer needed for the creation of new humans the women will slowly but surely drive men into extinction, I'm just helping :V
 
Please we all know once Men are no longer needed for the creation of new humans the women will slowly but surely drive men into extinction, I'm just helping :V

You say that as if all women would be happy for all men to go away forever any more than all men would be happy for all women to go away forever.

Besides, by the time Men are no longer needed for the creation of new humans, what's to say that the same developments won't ensure that Women aren't needed for the process either? :V
 
Besides, by the time Men are no longer needed for the creation of new humans, what's to say that the same developments won't ensure that Women aren't needed for the process either? :V
I have plans in place for the assured Robotic movement, :ninja:, I am simply siding with women-kind because I hope to ensure they don't move to kill off all of man-kind that is likely enviable to occur conflict. :V
 
[X] [Pay] An elected council.
[X] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.
[X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Utility: a girlbecomes a woman when she becomesan asset to her settlement.
 
Who should oversee the distribution of tributary incentives?

So local governments options:
[ ] [Pay] The matriarch and patriarch of each extended family.

Organization by clan. Highly stable and effective, but expect systematic disenfranchisement of new ideas and younger family members.
Pick this if you value efficiency and stability...but take note that its sheer stability means it's very hard to break the grip of.

[ ] [Pay] The head of each individual family.

Organization by individual family. The problem here is that larger families would have far more benefit to concentrate on their prosperity, while smaller families will gradually be unable to compete.
Theres also the problem of being too granular, divided to this extent, there really isn't a whole lot that COULD be done.

[ ] [Pay] The informal council of elders.

Organization by seniority. Expect conservative applications of resources.
Great for avoiding crisis of famine(which IS a big deal), stable, but systematically disfavors warriors and hunters, who rarely live long enough to be elders due to their risky lifestyle.
Will need additional work to keep the military from overthrowing this by force later.

[ ] [Pay] An elected council.

Relatively fairest. Expect disenfranchisement of migrants and refugees due to being minorities.
Is quite good at allocating resources to building infrastructure, planning festivals, etc, but unpopular ideas will be like pulling teeth.
Is vulnerable to government fractures. These work while things stay stable, but they tend to face issues once urbanization starts happening and "elected" no longer means "representative".

[ ] [Pay] An appointed member of the Big Man's Slate.

Increased centralization. This is functionally a command economy, and can get big projects done VERY well. Its stable as long as the Big Man retains control of the warriors.
Its also the easiest to abuse the shit out of.


How should the People reform their political system?
Regional government options:
[ ] [Politics] Give Hill Guard their own Big Man

Each settlement gets a leader, which means local issues are seen to effectively. Model would be early city-state, with overall influence swinging in many directions, but pretty stable even if Crystal Lake is going to assimilate them de-facto later on.
Discourages founding new settlements.

[ ] [Politics] Put Hill Guard under Crystal Lake's Big Man

Early hierarchy. It establishes that some settlements are subordinate to others. Convenient and encourages prosperous settlements to found more, getting more subordinates, but the top-down power level is going to be messy.

[ ] [Politics] Select one Big Man to become a Bigger Man (likely Crystal Lake)

Early Monarchy. More ability to organize big projects(again), more dissatisfaction from unmet demands. Keep them roads alive.

[ ] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.

Early republic. Every settlement sends someone, so everyone has a say.
Quite effective at keeping people happy and stable, but if a problem shows up that is beyond this threshold, things tend to fall to panic. In times of crisis this tends to end unless you do like Rome and build roads everywhere you don't have rivers.

[ ] [Politics] Organize a council from everyone selected by lot.

Selection by lottery to pick by the will of the spirits. This can't easily be corrupted, but you have to take shitty leaders as they come.


How do the People organize their Trails of Adulthood?
[ ] [Men] Trial of War: a boy is only a man after killing an enemy combatant.

Consequences are obvious the moment we run out of enemies to kill.

[ ] [Men] Trial of Acclaim: a boy becomes a man after he is recognized by a vote of his settlement.

Creation of an underclass, especially bad with receiving migrants of any type.

[ ] [Men] Trial of Ordeal: a boy becomes a man after he proves himself in a dangerous situation

Reinforces our elitism value, which is good, at the cost of attrition, and leading to polygamy down the road from loss of male population.
Disfavors men from being artisans or academics however.

[ ] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.

This is going to need revisions later on, but it pretty much means you have to complete an apprenticeship in a recognized trade. Not bad.

[ ] [Men] Trial of Fatherhood: a boy becomes a man once he has children born.

Promotes early marriage and population growth. Great if you want to go for settlement sprawl, not so great once you run out of land and population pressures start mounting.

[ ] [Women] Trial of Age: after going through puberty, a girl is recognized as a woman.

Impossible to subvert, but at the same time the women not undergoing trials to pass means that they are valued more or less only for birthing ability. Implications vary a lot by the male trial of course.

[ ] [Women] Trial of Life: there is no such thing as a girl, only women and younger women.

This depends on the male ordeal. If the men have a harsh Trial(War or Ordeal), it leads to de-facto matriarchy. Otherwise considering our elitist value it's going to invert the intent. "There is no such thing as an adult woman fit to make her own decisions" can happen easily.

[ ] [Women] Trial of Motherhood: a girl becomes a woman when she gives birth.

Promotes early marriage. Significantly riskier than the male version.

[ ] [Women] Trial of Acclaim: a girl becomes a woman when she is recognized by a vote of her settlement.

Creation of an underclass, especially bad with receiving migrants of any type.

[ ] [Women] Trial of Utility: a girl becomes a woman when she becomes an asset to her settlement.

While superficially egalitarian this will pose difficulties as specialization happens, since women have a more limited number of trades where they can be an asset in, simply due to the physical strength gap.
Depending on how we set things up, women would either be pushed to develop and maintain useful feminine trades(as in, establish certain trades as a women-only career), or potentially lose the ability to vote on matters entirely.
 
While superficially egalitarian this will pose difficulties as specialization happens, since women have a more limited number of trades where they can be an asset in, simply due to the physical strength gap.
Depending on how we set things up, women would either be pushed to develop and maintain useful feminine trades(as in, establish certain trades as a women-only career), or potentially lose the ability to vote on matters entirely.

Theoretically, for the women who who aren't able to establish themselves in certain trades, usefulness for a woman could also potentially cover women who are able to support the men who are. A mother, for example, could prove useful through raising some of the next generation, especially in cases of tending to he home when the men are away in order to ensure those men still have a home to come back to and their kids aren't left unsupervised.
 
[X] [Pay] An elected council.
[X] [Politics] Organize a council with elected representatives of all settlements.
[X] [Men] Trial of Utility: a boy becomes a man when he becomes an asset to his settlement.
[X] [Women] Trial of Utility: a girl becomes a woman when she becomes an asset to her settlement.
 
[X] [Pay] The matriarch and patriarch of each extended family.
[X] [Politics] Give Hill Guard their own Big Man
[X] [Women] Trial of Motherhood: a girl becomes a woman when she gives birth.
[X] [Men] Trial of Fatherhood: a boy becomes a man once he has children born.


The heads of the clans know best the family heads under them and how to best manage and utilise them, and they are influential enough that they can form a counterbalance to the ambitions of big men yet small enough and close enough to the ground that they are unlikely to be gaming the system anytime soon since tis both acclaim and age that makes one a respected senior of his great family.

Giving hillgaurd its big man is guarantees local efficiency and the good will of the settlement, and helps develop more conceptions of indirect rule across the people.

Now the Trails are interesting, choosing acclaim or utility will incentivese the ambition of skilled men and women to subvert or dominate the system.
Choosing war necessitates perpetual enemies.

Thus choosing parenthood is the best, as it reinforces the power of family hood and its significance, rather than the individual members of the family.
This meshes well with the politics and pay decisions, as it further enshrines the importance and significance of families and thus the heads of households and clans, not to mention the unity and obligations that are inherent in such systems.

For the household head is obliged to care for the household, the clan head for the clan and so the big man for the clans, and a bigger man for the big men. There also the fact that all the people are related and can be considered one family, which would lessen the chances of a truely catastrophic breakdown of the polity .



As for those that desire egalitarianism, parenthood is the most consistent and effective path to seek, as it effects all the women of the people and its a position near sacrosanct, whilst skill and acclaim effect only the best and does not constitute a massive continuous section of the people's psyche.

Simply put, women usually hold greater influence within families than the men, and with the family being the primary political sub unit of the polity structure, the status of family women will remain significant up until the deterioration of the powers and importance of households and clans.
 
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