Any Extended Project can be locked in: roads, kilns, temples, etc. Now, when you get a Paradigm Change in technology, it may require that you replace old iterations of a building type. When you unlock roads (either paved or gravel) you're going to have to rebuild a number of your trails. This wouldn't be a strict 1:1 conversion, however. Technology would influence the number of actions you need to take, how much demand the Extended Project would have (i.e. not every village needs a cobblestone road), the sheer scale of resources available, etc. For example, right now, each Settlement requires 3 trails to be considered fully served. It likely would only require 1.5 roads since only the main thoroughfares would need to be upgraded, but the smaller roads really don't need it.
More settlements always raise your caps by giving you more resources. Essentially, the way it works is that each settlement has an invisible level of certain building types it can support. These limits can be upgraded by technology, and infrastructure primarily. This is difficult, so it's often easier to begin cultivating more settlements.
Your caps did actually go up this turn, it's just that you immediately filled up the newly opened capacity by taking in foreigners.
So, as we made two new settlements for ourselves this turn, for something such as our hunting and farming caps, did our net increase in food, as we did gain more productive area for farmland and hinting, get canceled out by the need to feed so many more mouths? As it seems like we didn't really get an increase in staples like I thought we would by hitting the cap for each.
Which resources each settlement derives are a bit arbitrary, but themed. Northern terrain is simply less effective farmland and has an intrinsically lower Farm cap. Some settlements (i.e. Crystal Lake, Arrow Lake, and Hill Guard) have extensive mineral reserves where other settlements (Cave of Stars, Fingers) do not and as such, cannot build mines at all. Farmland, hunting, herding, and arboriculture roughly increase in a linear fashion as a rule of thumb. For other resources, it's much more unpredictable. Currently, for example, the two Lake settlements produce more minerals than the rest of your civilization, three times over.
For the Explore action, you can be as specific or as vague as you want. Mechanically, it doesn't change your odds of finding a new resource, but it can inform what type of resource you unlock. Exploring around Crystal Lake will likely give you more gemstones, for example. Exploring 'the North' puts you in contact with nomads, mastodons, and other unique, northern animals. You could also explore 'Lakeland territory' to fill out the giant blot in the middle of the map.
Are the ports that the Island Makers and Pearl Divers available as a technology for us on the tech tree? s you mentioned that being an innovation we could receive. However, right now I am assuming we need to do more expand fishing fleets to unlock it right?
It depends on how long it takes you to lock in Raise Warriors (Holy Orders). The longer it takes, the more hereditary the Holy Orders will become. The sooner you do it, the more they stay egalitarian.
Also, in relation to the issues we are going to have to deal with when it comes to the Holy Orders later, is this one we will have deal with? Them becoming more hereditary vs egalitarian? As we can't exactly lock in those actions anymore.
You don't really need to expand your cap for Herding. You could take it every action for your next... two or three turns and still not hit the cap. Herding is awesome since expanding it is inherently renewable; you only start developing problems when you over graze the land and you have enough available that would be very difficult.
Do we absorb the Northlands prestige for absorbing them?
Also, as we now control Arrow Lake proper, where they controlled essentially all of the lapis lazuli, does that mean we get a ton of prestige that the South Reach faction just lost?
The Horned Riders are in flux a bit at the moment. They're very strongly restricted in what territory they can operate in. Anything south of the Great River during the summer is too warm and will cause their caribou to die of heat stroke. They'd normally give you Light Cavalry (which is very strong during Skirmishes and Retreats). If you get orkers or Mastodon domesticated, they can translate to super-heavy and massive cavalry, both of which are utterly crushing in stand up battles. Mastodons are better in battle, but they require a ridiculous resource footprint. Even orkers are expensive as hell.
So essentially, due to the caribou themselves being essentially terrain locked, they're somewhat confined until we domesticate other animals that they can ride right?
Could we possibly change that by domesticating the caribou and say making them more adapted to the southern climate?
Am I correct in guessing though, that Orkers and Mastodons will require their own dedicated buildings in order to use? As I not sure how else you would track their resource use.
Nnnnnoooooo. If anything, the Mountain Clans now depend on you even more; they've officially fractured and split into three new tribes. You're going to get quite a bit of Diplomacy next update.
When you say we're going to get quite a bit of Diplomacy, do you mean as in the Diplomacy stat for helping them out, or diplomacy as in diplomatic options as we now have three tribes to deal with?
As I think we're going to have to deal with the issue of the tribes arguing over who gets the food we give them.
Also, how does that affect the island settlement they had in the middle of the Great River? Did they split it in three?
All leaders are not Shaman, but a lot of shaman are leaders. The percentage of leaders who are shaman hasn't changed to much yet, but the percentage of shaman who are leaders has gone up noticeably.
You do, however, spread your wealth a lot more freely than Arrow Lake did. Arrow Lake was hugely wealthy, but you actually dragged them down on average. Your poor people were richer, but their rich people were a lot richer than yours. You've just had a greater variety of wealth than them.
You've really hit diminishing returns for trade, right now. You dominate so much of it that there's not much anyone else can trade with you. Right now, the Island Makers trade you pottery and mica while the Pearl Divers offer preserved fish, pearls, and salt; no one else has anything you want. Everyone around you is simply so poor that they can't afford to buy things from you.
So are we so rich that our traders can essentially easily buy whatever we need from everyone else? Does that give our trade caravans an edge in terms of trading or is this brewing problem?
Essentially, since the Holy Orders had fresh converts in the Northlands and Arrow Lake, they were too busy spreading their power base through them that they didn't have enough time to make problems.
What will happen to the Arrow Lake Temple? Will we have a problem on our hands if we give a Temple to a Holy Order that already has one?
Or did we make the right settlement choices last turn to have the Fangs and the Horned Riders be able to switch off between Temples, assuming we build a new one in Arrow Lake?
The Indebted of Arrow Lake were mostly freed over time as they paid their Debts. They were still treated as slaves, but they elevated themselves out of it. Being a Debtor is easier to get out of than being Indebted.
Arrow Lake's war prisoners became Debtors for the most part. They were forced to work alongside the Indebted that they had once abused.
That must've irked the Arrow Lake debtors mightily. Did any of the slaves opt to return to their previous tribes, such as the Mountain Clans, or was that not an option?
If an individual can ride a caribou, the are automatically accepted into the Horned Riders. Most of them are trained internally, within the order, but if an outsider figures things out, they're simply inducted into the order. Note: It's not possible to say no, not that anyone has ever wanted to.
Even among the Northlands, not every one of them was capable of riding caribou. You've basically transplanted the entire Order into your tribe. Things are still in flux and will need another turn to full settle down.
You don't really need to expand your cap for Herding. You could take it every action for your next... two or three turns and still not hit the cap. Herding is awesome since expanding it is inherently renewable; you only start developing problems when you over graze the land and you have enough available that would be very difficult.
Not unless they're destroyed in some horrible disaster or war. Part of the resource cost of buildings is their upkeep. Buildings essentially sequester a certain amount of resources and tie them up permanently due to the need for repairs and replacement.
So, as we made two new settlements for ourselves this turn, for something such as our hunting and farming caps, did our net increase in food, as we did gain more productive area for farmland and hinting, get canceled out by the need to feed so many more mouths? As it seems like we didn't really get an increase in staples like I thought we would by hitting the cap for each.
Your net food cultivation increased by about one third over all. Your two new settlements actually produce some of their own food already, but it's tied up in feeding the workers that moved into the new settlements. Until you finally unlock Arboriculture, the Three Sisters, or develop irrigation or another advanced technique, you're farming as much as you can. As soon as you get either one of those technologies and implement them, you're going to have a major increase in resources available.
Are the ports that the Island Makers and Pearl Divers available as a technology for us on the tech tree? s you mentioned that being an innovation we could receive. However, right now I am assuming we need to do more expand fishing fleets to unlock it right?
Docks are an option. You're not developing them too quickly because you have no need for them. The only place you could build a dock is Hill Guard and you have no real reason to yet. War canoes are big enough to transport people and goods to the Peace Builders and back. You simply don't have an imeptus for a blue water navy yet. The Pearl Divers did because they're on the ocean and the Island Makers did because they depended on a lot on fishing and never expanded. They fished as much as they could but they maxed out their resources.
Also, in relation to the issues we are going to have to deal with when it comes to the Holy Orders later, is this one we will have deal with? Them becoming more hereditary vs egalitarian? As we can't exactly lock in those actions anymore.
Yes, eventually. I'm rethinking the what's going to trigger the transition to hereditary Holy Orders. You're very likely to get it since you already mostly have careers assigned at birth or in early childhood.
Do we absorb the Northlands prestige for absorbing them?
Also, as we now control Arrow Lake proper, where they controlled essentially all of the lapis lazuli, does that mean we get a ton of prestige that the South Reach faction just lost?
Nope, it vanishes. Destroying or conquering another civilization gives a lot of prestige, but it doesn't give as much prestige as that civilization had.
So essentially, due to the caribou themselves being essentially terrain locked, they're somewhat confined until we domesticate other animals that they can ride right?
Could we possibly change that by domesticating the caribou and say making them more adapted to the southern climate?
Am I correct in guessing though, that Orkers and Mastodons will require their own dedicated buildings in order to use? As I not sure how else you would track their resource use.
Yes. Orkers and Mastodon would be extremely expensive, however. They'd easily be Megaproject grade at your current Tech level to build even a single building. They are profoundly powerful in war, but that comes with a cost.
When you say we're going to get quite a bit of Diplomacy, do you mean as in the Diplomacy stat for helping them out, or diplomacy as in diplomatic options as we now have three tribes to deal with?
As I think we're going to have to deal with the issue of the tribes arguing over who gets the food we give them.
Also, how does that affect the island settlement they had in the middle of the Great River? Did they split it in three?
The Mountain Clans split into three groups: one went south to continue the war against South Reach, one remains in their normal, mountain homes, and the third fully spilled out into the lowlands around the island.
You don't make any beer yet you haven't taken the action yet.
Some of the inductees grumbled, others were impressed. The impression was mixed. The poor and middle-class liked it, the former aristocrats of Arrow Lake and their few shaman did not.
So are we so rich that our traders can essentially easily buy whatever we need from everyone else? Does that give our trade caravans an edge in terms of trading or is this brewing problem?
You can buy whatever you want, the issue is there's simply not enough to buy. It's not so much a problem because whatever you don't trade, you consume internally. It could lead to problems inside of other civilizations since your wealth attracts greed. It's like you have a bank account with ten million dollars but you can only shop at Walmart and all the shelves are bare.
It was decided by a roll, but not how you're thinking. You finished Copper this turn (Research updates in the 1st sub-phase) and that sparks problems.
Never mind, you did not finish copper this turn. I thought you were further along than you are. You will still have Religious issues next phase, however.
What will happen to the Arrow Lake Temple? Will we have a problem on our hands if we give a Temple to a Holy Order that already has one?
Or did we make the right settlement choices last turn to have the Fangs and the Horned Riders be able to switch off between Temples, assuming we build a new one in Arrow Lake?
That must've irked the Arrow Lake debtors mightily. Did any of the slaves opt to return to their previous tribes, such as the Mountain Clans, or was that not an option?
...didn't actually involve having the captives make us alcohol, in spite of being explicitly described as making them produce it and consuming enough resources to build an entire Hill or Temple?
That seems crazy. We must have at least one action's worth of "bitter water" production. If we weren't making some of it we'd have forgotten the technology and not be able to make it at all, the way these things go. Or are we making something other than beer and I'm reading too much into your statement?
Do we already have a site in mind for the Grand Temple, or will there be a decision point where we will have to choose one, which I assume will have significant effects?
Not unless they're destroyed in some horrible disaster or war. Part of the resource cost of buildings is their upkeep. Buildings essentially sequester a certain amount of resources and tie them up permanently due to the need for repairs and replacement.
Your net food cultivation increased by about one third over all. Your two new settlements actually produce some of their own food already, but it's tied up in feeding the workers that moved into the new settlements. Until you finally unlock Arboriculture, the Three Sisters, or develop irrigation or another advanced technique, you're farming as much as you can. As soon as you get either one of those technologies and implement them, you're going to have a major increase in resources available.
So would taking an action to Study Life, which would likely unlock Arboriculture this turn, immediately give us that massive increase in food cultivation? Or would we need to chain it with another action to get the implementation portion? Such as, would our farms immediately start to be more productive due to the new technologies, or would we need to be build more new things to use them?
So I take it the dissatisfaction that currently revolves around the Fingers, will likely remain a long term one then that we will need to be cognizant of?
Docks are an option. You're not developing them too quickly because you have no need for them. The only place you could build a dock is Hill Guard and you have no real reason to yet. War canoes are big enough to transport people and goods to the Peace Builders and back. You simply don't have an imeptus for a blue water navy yet. The Pearl Divers did because they're on the ocean and the Island Makers did because they depended on a lot on fishing and never expanded. They fished as much as they could but they maxed out their resources.
So will docks and bigger boats be options in the tech tree now, or do we already have the capability to build them, and as you said, just have no reason to build them?
Would doing something like maxing out and capping our fishing fleets by expanding them largely, allow us to find a reason for a blue water navy?
Yes, eventually. I'm rethinking the what's going to trigger the transition to hereditary Holy Orders. You're very likely to get it since you already mostly have careers assigned at birth or in early childhood.
Hearty Herders [Admin] [Mastery of Nature] [Familialism] - From the North, the People have learned the art of herding beasts. It's like an extremely controlled version of the Hunt. The People protect the animals in their care, they watch over them, and in turn the animals provide the People with meat, milk, and fur, so that they are taken care of in turn. Costs: None. Produces: Staples, Luxuries.
Push Unity [Elitism] [Familialism] [Diplomacy] - Long have the People valued their tradition of stories, lore from the very spirits themselves. It was within this great body of wisdom that they learned the importance of foresight and the need to always consider their children. Seven generations should be kept in mind with every action. Remind the People of their stories and how they can be used to teach and guide in the day-to-day. Cost: Nothing. Produces; Legitimacy. 0/???
Nope, it vanishes. Destroying or conquering another civilization gives a lot of prestige, but it doesn't give as much prestige as that civilization had.
Yes. Orkers and Mastodon would be extremely expensive, however. They'd easily be Megaproject grade at your current Tech level to build even a single building. They are profoundly powerful in war, but that comes with a cost.
Just for clarification, when it comes to the Orkers and Mastodons, are the megaproject structures simply for keeping domesticated versions of them or for keeping the ones meant to be trained for war? As it seems like we already keep Orkers in our settlements considering how easily those young men were able to wrangle one in the last update.
Also, similar to the dog choices we made earlier for smarter or bigger/faster. When it comes to caribou domestication, which we will likely get in the sub-turn based on our choices, will something such as caribou size and adapting them to warmer climates be mutually exclusive options?
Well, at least it looks like we won't have to worry about that diplomacy option then as people are coming to us. Hopefully things aren't too bad for us, such as needing to intervene or something.
The Mountain Clans split into three groups: one went south to continue the war against South Reach, one remains in their normal, mountain homes, and the third fully spilled out into the lowlands around the island.
Well...I think our plan may have backfired considering we're not prying them off of that island anytime soon. Have the third faction learned how to farm in the lowlands yet?
Also, how is South Reach taking the Mountain Clans raiding them again?
Some of the inductees grumbled, others were impressed. The impression was mixed. The poor and middle-class liked it, the former aristocrats of Arrow Lake and their few shaman did not.
You can buy whatever you want, the issue is there's simply not enough to buy. It's not so much a problem because whatever you don't trade, you consume internally. It could lead to problems inside of other civilizations since your wealth attracts greed. It's like you have a bank account with ten million dollars but you can only shop at Walmart and all the shelves are bare.
Good to know about the sub-phase thing and about the potential copper issues. Now that we know about it, we might be able to pre-empt our actions surrounding it.
Never mind, you did not finish copper this turn. I thought you were further along than you are. You will still have Religious issues next phase, however.
We're close to finishing copper, so maybe next turn. But I guess that means we might want to slow things down in order to avoid too much tensions as I think that combined with our religious issues, especially the prominence of the Ember Eyes, that could lead to another internal crisis.
Good to know, we picked right in terms of which settlements to go for as now we can build the Temple in Arrow Lake and give the Fangs that Temple while the Horned Riders get Hill Guard's Temple.
Trade GoodStatusCompetitorsLuxuriesCommon Pottery CompetingIsland MakersDyesLittlePeace Builders, South LakeFursSignificantEveryoneGemsDominant (Pearl Divers, Island Makers) South Reach, Pearl Divers, Island MakersIvoryLeadingNoneMedicineLittlePeace BuildersStrategicObsidianDominantNoneSaltNonePearl DiversSlavesNo ExportPeace Builders, Mountain ClansStoneCompetingEveryoneCulturalPilgrimageDominantPeace Builders
The People! (Prestige: 38, Army: Hardened Neolithic Warriors and Holy Orders, Economy: Agriculture Supplemented with Hunting, Art: Sacred Construction and Advanced High Quality Tools, Magic: Fire, Stone, and Spirit)
Tribe of the West (Prestige: 29, Army: Numerous Professional Neolithic Warriors, Economy: Unprecedented Boom in Agriculture, Art: Innumerable Tools, Magic: All Things Alive)
Island Makers (Prestige: 20, Army: Elite Neolithic Warriors, Economy: Intense Early Agriculture, Art: Advanced Quality Tools, Magic: Earth and Water)
Peace Builders (Prestige: 19, Army: Fanatical Neolithic Warriors, Economy: Broad Agriculture and Aquaculture, Art: Ephemeral Crafts and Imported Advanced High Quality Tools, Magic: Of Song and Story)
Roundstone (Prestige: 18, Army: Professional Slingers, Economy: Extensive Aquaculture, Art: Cloth and Paint, Magic: Shouts)
Bond Breakers (Prestige: 17, Army: Organizing Militia, Economy: Early Agricultre, Art: Durable Weapons, Magic: Little)
Cracktooth (Prestige: 17, Army: Bloodthirsty Militia, Economy: Agrculture and Herding, Art: Tools of Terror, Magic: Bone and Beat)
Aside from the three new tribes which have replaced the Mountain Clans on this list, nothing much, even Arrow Lake still being on the list, has changed.
In terms of which tribe is which based on @Redium description. The Hard Foot are likely the faction of the Mountain Clans which decided to continue the war and attack South Reach based on their angry militia description.
The Soft Eyes are likely the faction that remained on the island and are currently popping up around the lowlands near it as they are still on the dole economically, and as that island was the spot where we dropped off their food, it is likely that they are our soon to be vassals.
The Stoutheart on the other hand, based on the process of elimination and their own economic status, are likely the faction of the Mountain Clans who chose to return to the mountains and continue their old ways.
Edit Edit:
Right, since no one else is voting, I may as well:
Since veekie isn't here, and I support his plan anyway...
[X] [Orker] It was to be commemorated in festival. (Annual Festival)
[X] Plan Admin Overboost v3
-[X][Action] Clay Pits [Admin] [Art]
-[X][Action] Craftsmen [Art]
-[X][Action] Hearty Herders [Admin] [Mastery of Nature] [Familialism]
-[X][Admin] Archaic Charcoal Kilns (Cave of Stars) [Mastery of Nature] [Admin] [Art]
-[X][Art] Raise Temple (Arrow Lake) [Admin] [Art]
-[X][Double Down] Raise Temple (Arrow Lake) [Admin] [Art]
-[X][Martial] Explore (Route between Crystal Lake and Fingers) [Mastery of Nature] [Martial] [Diplomacy]
-[X][Empowerment] Headman of Fingers
-[X][Empowerment] Star Shaman
-[X][Empowerment] Horned Rider
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Sep 13, 2018 at 2:14 AM, finished with 7 posts and 1 votes.
[X] [Orker] It was to be commemorated in festival. (Annual Festival)
The reasoning was, that if we empower the Headman of the Fingers we can hopefully avoid any degradation of our legitimacy or stability as we were empowering him/her. As the Headman of the Fingers, and a Pareem, they represent the interests of the Fingers Faction. So while we may not be directly mandating the building of a Hill to address their issues, the reasoning goes that we are still giving them the resources and power to do so. If we have enough resources leftover from rush building a Temple in Arrow Lake, which we can hopefully use to switcheroo the Fangs and Horned Riders with, then the Headman of the Fingers can start to build a Hill for them. If not, we are still giving their faction a message that we are listening to their demands.
For the Explore action, you can be as specific or as vague as you want. Mechanically, it doesn't change your odds of finding a new resource, but it can inform what type of resource you unlock. Exploring around Crystal Lake will likely give you more gemstones, for example. Exploring 'the North' puts you in contact with nomads, mastodons, and other unique, northern animals. You could also explore 'Lakeland territory' to fill out the giant blot in the middle of the map.
Hmm...yeah want to fill out the map blot first.
Crystal Lake probably isn't a super high priority owing to just how much we dominate trade at the moment.
North...finish domesticating the Orkers and we start searching for more.
You don't really need to expand your cap for Herding. You could take it every action for your next... two or three turns and still not hit the cap. Herding is awesome since expanding it is inherently renewable; you only start developing problems when you over graze the land and you have enough available that would be very difficult.
I imagine The Hunt is helping to avoid overgrazing?
Though long term wise, the larger our herds the more that local ecosystems shift towards monoculture, so if we push it too much we're going to see issues(and in the super long term its a lot less productive than grain planting per acre, but thats for future us to deal with, since the herders don't need roads and the farmers do)
The Horned Riders are in flux a bit at the moment. They're very strongly restricted in what territory they can operate in. Anything south of the Great River during the summer is too warm and will cause their caribou to die of heat stroke. They'd normally give you Light Cavalry (which is very strong during Skirmishes and Retreats). If you get orkers or Mastodon domesticated, they can translate to super-heavy and massive cavalry, both of which are utterly crushing in stand up battles. Mastodons are better in battle, but they require a ridiculous resource footprint. Even orkers are expensive as hell.
Man, we won't even need much. A pair of mastodon under wood and leather armor is basically going to just mow through any force if you can keep it controlled. Even in the bronze age.
Nnnnnoooooo. If anything, the Mountain Clans now depend on you even more; they've officially fractured and split into three new tribes. You're going to get quite a bit of Diplomacy next update.
You've really hit diminishing returns for trade, right now. You dominate so much of it that there's not much anyone else can trade with you. Right now, the Island Makers trade you pottery and mica while the Pearl Divers offer preserved fish, pearls, and salt; no one else has anything you want. Everyone around you is simply so poor that they can't afford to buy things from you.
Wasn't there a mechanic for us to tech drain/culture push for trade imbalances, or are they not interested enough in the goods(other than Salt and Sugar)?
You rolled so high, you didn't need to worry about an RA problem yet. You're going to get your first problem in 21.1.
Essentially, since the Holy Orders had fresh converts in the Northlands and Arrow Lake, they were too busy spreading their power base through them that they didn't have enough time to make problems.
More that everyone else (outside you) was too poor to really buy anything from them. Their Aesthetic value also happened to prize Lapis Lazuli more heavily than anything else.
The Indebted of Arrow Lake were mostly freed over time as they paid their Debts. They were still treated as slaves, but they elevated themselves out of it. Being a Debtor is easier to get out of than being Indebted.
Arrow Lake's war prisoners became Debtors for the most part. They were forced to work alongside the Indebted that they had once abused.
Building Breweries [Art] [Admin] [Vendetta] - An ingenious way to make use of food that would otherwise go to waste, the People regularly make pots full of mashed grains and water that go subtly off. The resulting drink is quite bitter, but also extremely fun! Costs: Staples, Materials. Produces: Luxuries.
An interesting thought is that once we propagate the Kilns, the Breweries may be able to do better brewing via better pottery. Possibly some kind of distilled spirits by using the winter cold to freeze out the water content?
Hearty Herders [Admin] [Mastery of Nature] [Familialism] - From the North, the People have learned the art of herding beasts. It's like an extremely controlled version of the Hunt. The People protect the animals in their care, they watch over them, and in turn the animals provide the People with meat, milk, and fur, so that they are taken care of in turn. Costs: None. Produces: Staples, Luxuries.
Push Unity [Elitism] [Familialism] [Diplomacy] - Long have the People valued their tradition of stories, lore from the very spirits themselves. It was within this great body of wisdom that they learned the importance of foresight and the need to always consider their children. Seven generations should be kept in mind with every action. Remind the People of their stories and how they can be used to teach and guide in the day-to-day. Cost: Nothing. Produces; Legitimacy. 0/???
Artificial River [Mastery of Nature] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
The Dam [Mastery of Nature] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Inspired by the feats of ingenuity demonstrated by a large, but common, rat, the People have decided to emulate their creations on a more massive scale. By blockaded a river, it would be possible to accumulate an enormous amount of water, something that could easily be put to use. Costs: Craftworks, Materials. Produces: Staples.
The World, A Shield [Mastery of Nature] [Might Makes Right] [Martial] [Admin] (12 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
The World in Miniature [Mastery of Nature] [Diplomacy] [Admin] (7 actions) - The world is a grand place, seemingly endless in scope. The People's exploration and search for wonders has pushed them to find a way to more effectively communicate discoveries with each other. Trail markers are a start, but they are not easily portable. More can be done. Costs: Magic? Produces: Efficiency.
A Temple, Grand [Mastery of Nature] [Elitism] [Art] (8 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
The Sisters Three [Mastery of Nature] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
A Field of Gold [Mastery of Nature] [Admin] (6 Actions) - Prerequisites not met.
Docks are an option. You're not developing them too quickly because you have no need for them. The only place you could build a dock is Hill Guard and you have no real reason to yet. War canoes are big enough to transport people and goods to the Peace Builders and back. You simply don't have an imeptus for a blue water navy yet. The Pearl Divers did because they're on the ocean and the Island Makers did because they depended on a lot on fishing and never expanded. They fished as much as they could but they maxed out their resources.
Yes, eventually. I'm rethinking the what's going to trigger the transition to hereditary Holy Orders. You're very likely to get it since you already mostly have careers assigned at birth or in early childhood.
The Mountain Clans split into three groups: one went south to continue the war against South Reach, one remains in their normal, mountain homes, and the third fully spilled out into the lowlands around the island.
@Redium
Didn't we take the action to build at least one brewery with the War-Debtors?
If not we're probably going to want to build some soon, or I assume we'd start losing an unused tech.
It was decided by a roll, but not how you're thinking. You finished Copper this turn (Research updates in the 1st sub-phase) and that sparks problems.
Never mind, you did not finish copper this turn. I thought you were further along than you are. You will still have Religious issues next phase, however.
So will docks and bigger boats be options in the tech tree now, or do we already have the capability to build them, and as you said, just have no reason to build them?
Would doing something like maxing out and capping our fishing fleets by expanding them largely, allow us to find a reason for a blue water navy?
Look at our geography. Expanding our fishing fleets will just further increase our riverine fleets at present. No impetus for Docks(which are hard to build without metal tools, and low demand until we have Metal enabled Big Boat, though our Lime Mortar means we can make simple Ash Cement to build those easier than others could)
Just for clarification, when it comes to the Orkers and Mastodons, are the megaproject structures simply for keeping domesticated versions of them or for keeping the ones meant to be trained for war? As it seems like we already keep Orkers in our settlements considering how easily those young men were able to wrangle one in the last update.
Also, similar to the dog choices we made earlier for smarter or bigger/faster. When it comes to caribou domestication, which we will likely get in the sub-turn based on our choices, will something such as caribou size and adapting them to warmer climates be mutually exclusive options?
I assume war-versions. Work elephants pay for themselves in upkeep, but a war elephant eats just as much as work elephants except they can't be used for labor. War elephants are dangerous to be around for anyone but their designated handlers.
As for the caribou choices, I assume they are pre locked in for the first choice to breed for size because thats the key priority of the Horned Riders.
Well...I think our plan may have backfired considering we're not prying them off of that island anytime soon. Have the third faction learned how to farm in the lowlands yet?
Also, how is South Reach taking the Mountain Clans raiding them again?
Eh, its going mostly as planned. They settle, we have them indebted to us, and can probably diplo-annex them down the road. Hence my hurry on the infrastructure.
Need metal tools for quarries. With bone and stone tools, it just takes too much WORK to make producing blocks of stone all the time(as a quarry does) logical.
As do I. But it's likely going to take a lot of work and study to get to it, all the while we will likely be trying to juggle internal and external pressures so it may take awhile.
Either way though I think if we do, we're likely to have a huge advantage over our adversaries as we seem to be the only tribe in the surrounding region with such technologies.
Look at our geography. Expanding our fishing fleets will just further increase our riverine fleets at present. No impetus for Docks(which are hard to build without metal tools, and low demand until we have Metal enabled Big Boat, though our Lime Mortar means we can make simple Ash Cement to build those easier than others could)
While this is true for right now, I expect with how much emphasis the QM has put on Rahu Bay before, and the connecting Lakes around it, that we will likely need docks sooner or later in order to deal with the Great Lakes acting as some kind of Mediterranean for us. Plus, seeing how we're running out of people to trade with I was kind of hoping we might be able to expand our trade missions through merchant ships.
This does remind me though...
@Redium When you said that absorbing Arrow Lake earlier might give us access to unique foods/crops, what were those?
I assume war-versions. Work elephants pay for themselves in upkeep, but a war elephant eats just as much as work elephants except they can't be used for labor. War elephants are dangerous to be around for anyone but their designated handlers.
I hope that's the case. I don't even know what we'd even use work elephants for, though, to be honest, and what we plan to breed as qualities into them.
As for the caribou choices, I assume they are pre locked in for the first choice to breed for size because thats the key priority of the Horned Riders.
Personally I was hoping we could choose adaptability to the southern climates eventually, as that would expand the usefulness of the Horned Riders immensely, though size is important as I doubt we're going to have small enough riders forever.
Eh, its going mostly as planned. They settle, we have them indebted to us, and can probably diplo-annex them down the road. Hence my hurry on the infrastructure.
I hope we can keep that them way long term, as I wouldn't be surprised if someone else like the Island makers decide that island of theirs looks nice, as we really need to lock in those flood plains.
Need metal tools for quarries. With bone and stone tools, it just takes too much WORK to make producing blocks of stone all the time(as a quarry does) logical.
While this is true for right now, I expect with how much emphasis the QM has put on Rahu Bay before, and the connecting Lakes around it, that we will likely need docks sooner or later in order to deal with the Great Lakes acting as some kind of Mediterranean for us. Plus, seeing how we're running out of people to trade with I was kind of hoping we might be able to expand our trade missions through merchant ships.
We'd need to resolve our backfill issue first.
Currently our premier trading post remains the Fingers, which is pretty far from the lakes, and mainly serviced by smaller rivers to downstream to the Pearl Divers. They don't need docks because nothing they service needs docks or large ships to reach.
On the other side you have Hill Guard and Crystal Lake, which COULD press the issue by saturating boatness...but you'd need to saturate river fishing first(since its just so much more economical short term), and our new Cave of Stars settlement only reinforces that emphasis. I don't think I need to explain just how hard it is to achieve at present, we'd wipe out our artisan capacity before we begin to approach it.
Its not long now. Copper Age tools(which we're a couple of generations from) will make the production of planks cheaper, and thats going to make dugout canoes look like a massive waste of time compared to larger ships. It'd make quarrying much easier, and thus demand even larger vessels to transport whole blocks of stone for construction. Once the Bronze age rolls around, docks to enable the bulk trade of metal, fuel and ore are going to be highly valued.
Theres no need to specifically pursue it in the stone age. Its time is coming as the formula changes.
Yep. The pool of applicants simply isn't important, what you lose from narrowing the pool is more than made up by starting from age 3 instead of age 10, in terms of nutrition, physical and mental development.
Effectively the pool isn't narrowed at all, the people who get picked for Ember Eyes or Frost Scarred most often would tend to have parents who are Ember Eyes or Frost Scarred as it is. The main difference comes in when we suffer massive losses, or when resources swell...but given how expensive elites are to produce, they don't really swell faster than natural pop growth.
I hope that's the case. I don't even know what we'd even use work elephants for, though, to be honest, and what we plan to breed as qualities into them.
Earthmoving. Elephants are great for hauling lumber and stone, being able to move much more mass. Which makes Hills, Kilns, and Temples cheaper to build or maintain, because you no longer need so many bulk haulers.
Personally I was hoping we could choose adaptability to the southern climates eventually, as that would expand the usefulness of the Horned Riders immensely, though size is important as I doubt we're going to have small enough riders forever.
I hope we can keep that them way long term, as I wouldn't be surprised if someone else like the Island makers decide that island of theirs looks nice, as we really need to lock in those flood plains.
We'd need to resolve our backfill issue first.
Currently our premier trading post remains the Fingers, which is pretty far from the lakes, and mainly serviced by smaller rivers to downstream to the Pearl Divers. They don't need docks because nothing they service needs docks or large ships to reach.
On the other side you have Hill Guard and Crystal Lake, which COULD press the issue by saturating boatness...but you'd need to saturate river fishing first(since its just so much more economical short term), and our new Cave of Stars settlement only reinforces that emphasis. I don't think I need to explain just how hard it is to achieve at present, we'd wipe out our artisan capacity before we begin to approach it.
Its not long now. Copper Age tools(which we're a couple of generations from) will make the production of planks cheaper, and thats going to make dugout canoes look like a massive waste of time compared to larger ships. It'd make quarrying much easier, and thus demand even larger vessels to transport whole blocks of stone for construction. Once the Bronze age rolls around, docks to enable the bulk trade of metal, fuel and ore are going to be highly valued.
Theres no need to specifically pursue it in the stone age. Its time is coming as the formula changes.
Yeah that's fair. It shouldn't be too long for us to enter the Copper Age considering we seem close by the QM's estimate to discovering how to smelt copper and finally getting metal tools with which to work with.
Yep. The pool of applicants simply isn't important, what you lose from narrowing the pool is more than made up by starting from age 3 instead of age 10, in terms of nutrition, physical and mental development.
Effectively the pool isn't narrowed at all, the people who get picked for Ember Eyes or Frost Scarred most often would tend to have parents who are Ember Eyes or Frost Scarred as it is. The main difference comes in when we suffer massive losses, or when resources swell...but given how expensive elites are to produce, they don't really swell faster than natural pop growth.
So we're essentially creating a hereditary Priest-Hood then?
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, seeing how we already have a hereditary ruling class, I am just wondering if that may not be too constraining for us if we ever decide to expand. Then again, considering a good portion of our Holy Orders are Warrior Priests, the hereditary part makes a lot of sense.
Earthmoving. Elephants are great for hauling lumber and stone, being able to move much more mass. Which makes Hills, Kilns, and Temples cheaper to build or maintain, because you no longer need so many bulk haulers.
Hopefully we'll get the wheel by then so as to make their carrying capacity greater, as I think by the time we domesticate them we will have moved on in infrastructure needs.
True enough, I just can't really figure out what other use we would have for developing large scale stonecutting so soon but for large construction projects like this. I've always thought that the World, A Shield Megaproject was some kind of gigantic stone wall or something.
Wasn't there a mechanic for us to tech drain/culture push for trade imbalances, or are they not interested enough in the goods(other than Salt and Sugar)?
They officially split? How are our food shipments being distributed among them then? Do they fight over it? Also, could you give us some insight on what effect several generations of getting food from us has had on their culture?
All leaders are not Shaman, but a lot of shaman are leaders. The percentage of leaders who are shaman hasn't changed to much yet, but the percentage of shaman who are leaders has gone up noticeably.
What effect does that have on how those tribes see us? Especially our allies the Peace Builders might become more distant due to this. How are our relations with them lately?
Is that a rule or a suggestion to do the sensible thing? Like, we could just purposely snub Arrow Lake if we really wanted to, no?
Personally I think getting the Horned Riders a usable temple is a higher priority than giving Arrow Lake one.
Also, what is the current religious situation in Arrow Lake? I assume that they have a shrine already. But what's the status of their shamans for instance? How will they be integrated into our 4 Order system where independents are traditionally "spirit-touched"?
When they became Debtors they were shipped to work in and around our towns, right? But many of them are bound to still have one or more wives back in (now conquered) Arrow Lake. And all of them are now considered part of The People. So what's happening there? Are they considered to have been essentially divorced by force? After all especially non-primary wives could even be happy to not be considered married to what to them looks like a recently enslaved person with nothing to their name.
I also have a few more old questions that never got answered:
What are the mysteries of the Horned Riders other than animal husbandry and mounted warfare? How big is their role in keeping Northern culture alive post integration.
Does Empower Fingers Headman currently equate Empower Admin Hero since they are the same person? Are there any benefits/consequences for this?
How much of a population increase was it to integrate the Northlanders? And how much the Arrow Lakers?
How are our various Holy Orders organized, hierarchy wise? Do they have any formal systems of government? Or is it just an informal "follow the wisest/oldest/most martially successful/Pareem shaman of your Order"?
And from even further back there's the questions from this post. I'm linking it instead of copying the questions over because they make more sense in context of the attached quotes. If you find the time to answer those as well, great. If not I'll just keep them in mind for next update.
And lastly, because I haven't seen anyone say it in a while, your quest is really damn awesome. I may not be as invested in the specific votes or what direction this thread's community wants to take our people, but I'm really engrossed in the world you are creating here and even more so due to how quickly and in detail you can answer all kinds of questions about it, all backed up with what seems like an extensive amount of knowledge and informed opinion regarding the relevant history. And your writing is great too on top of that. Kudos to you, and thanks.
