So are the individual settlements pretty diverse when it comes to their identity then as they're a confederation? Also, while it seems like their model of government may be useful against hard power, as in another foreign power trying to conquer them, how susceptible would they be against more subtle methods of influence? For example, how hard would it be for us or someone else to peel away one of their settlements and make it break away from the Confederation.
There's not enough cultural stuff for them to be really divergent yet, but each Pearl Diver settlement would be significantly more different than say the Fingers and Crystal Lake are.
Peeling away cities from a tribal confederation is really easy. They may not even notice that you've done so. They're very loosely tied so as long as you don't lean on the converted city too much, it won't be noticed.
Was that what we were invited to speak at? As I doubt that they would make such a sweeping decision through the input of only one settlement.
You were invited to the annual gathering.
If the Island Makers were so successful at keeping the southerners away, how come it seems that the Island Makers constantly get beat up on by other civs such as how they were doing poorly against both the Hundred Bands and South Lake? I'm guessing due to building too tall they're not very populous and can't field as much warriors as everyone else right?
The Island Makers needed time to breath. The Hundred Bands and then South Lake were at their throats for centuries. They weren't doing bad, but they needed a gap to recover and then spread their wings. The last sixty years of peace have been put to excellent use by them. They needed it to really solidify their gains.
South Lake seemed pretty expansive though, considering what we see as their position now, and then their position at the mouth of the Valge River, which seems pretty far away from the location on the other side of Lake Veri.
South Lake was running hot on the collapse of the Hundred Bands. They managed to vacuum up most of their resources after you pushed the Hundred Bands to collapse. If they hadn't had an external enemy in you and the Island Makers, they likely would have been in trouble.
When you mean going to be everywhere, is this like Sea Peoples attacking the Bronze Age civilizations bad, or just a nuisance that will muck up trade routes and such?
Not nearly as bad as the Sea Peoples. They would interfere with your shipping and would likely start settling in inconvenient places.
How so? I mean, I assume getting tools to use granite would allow us to create greater constructions, but how would that change things like walls?
Granite is like.. 2, maybe even 3 times more durable than limestone. It's
extremely hard to break. It would require advanced catapults or even trebuchet of some degree in order to break. Limestone walls would be vulnerable to early catapults like the onegar.
Huh...that's odd, I'm surprised the multiple other tribes accepted such an occurrence.
The weather and sickness were bad for them too. They wanted to rest as well and everyone's underestimating the Peace Builders because their compromise and consensus nonsense makes them come across as weak.
How exactly do you roll for that?
Smite dice. I have a number of dice I roll every turn that are basically: 'Does something go
horrifically wrong this turn?' Disease, astrological phenomena, disasters; all of that's on there.
Hmmm...good point, has this happened yet at all for us?
Yes, but not in large numbers. The People are always on the look out for cheaters.
How many times would we need to take major projects such as that?
If you do for 3 turns after Aeva's death, the system will become incorporated as long-term technology.
How exactly did that part of our reputation translate? Like how often we take in people and such, as I don't think we've really refused any refugees so far.
It feeds into your spirits narrative. You can either be supportive and free with gifts, or vengeful and murderous.
What do the tribes that have known us for awhile, like the Peace Builders, Island Makers, and Arrow Lake think of us? I doubt they see us as spirits, right?
The Peace Builders are happy that you like listening to their stories even if they're disappointed that you don't seem to like them that much. They respect you for your strength, but also really appreciate that you're good neighbours.
The Island Makers treat you like a mudslide waiting to happen. You step softly, quietly, and hope you don't set them off. They plan on poking you in the future, but only in cases of grave importance.
Arrow Lake thinks you're weird. You're warlike and paranoid and they don't see the reason for it.
Is it because the Great River lacks suitable flat floodplains? Also when it comes to the Valge, in terms of its suitability for fertility and such, on a scale of the Tigris and Euprhates Rivers to the Nile/Yellow River, where exactly does the Valge fall? I doubt it floods as regularly as the Nile does.
It doesn't actually flood. The areas around the river are flat lands that used to be underwater during the last ice age. This has resulted in a relatively high level of soil quality and quantity, especially compared to other areas.
Are we advanced enough or canny enough to simply combine the Mica with say our pottery and then resell it to others such as Arrow Lake and the Pearl Divers?
Yes, but it's not enough to really change the trade balance. Most of the mica you have is used internal as whitewash mix.
Are those ever going to be shown on the map? And I assume that those types of infrastructures modify their stats right?
Irrigation and trails probably aren't. I don't want to add too much which then makes the map incomprehensible.
Those things do boost their stats.
What exactly does having us as their exclusive trade partners, and only trade partners, result in when it comes to our interactions and relations with them? Currently due to our central position, I'm assuming we might have a trade imbalance with them as we seem probably have more products to trade for their Lapis Lazuli right?
There's a trade imbalance, but the effects of it haven't really hit them. They have enough lapis luzili production that they can mostly meet their trade needs with you. Arrow Lake still has sporadic trade with the south (though they lose a lot of caravans to the Mountain Clans).
Good to know, I was just curious as I wanted to know if picking a specific crop, aside from having more of it proportionally, would make a difference for our agriculture overall, or to gauge how deeply you were judging things.
More crops is generally better. It broadens the nutritional component of the People's diet and it makes it less likely that crops will be destroyed by sickness or diease.
Also, to reiterate, how would we go about forcibly developing military techs for things like better bows?
Hunting and Raids. Tech develops as there's need for it.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Do they still have the Barrows/Mounds btw?
Yes.
I forget, early in Kaspar's time, I think?
That Blood Debt trait does not sound very beneficial, as I'm guessing things like debts and other things like feuds could be passed onto their kin right? What exactly is the benefit of that?
It ties families together more tightly. It's great a defining 'us' and 'them'. It also inspires them to greater heights by the need for revenge.
As for properly paranoid, yeah I'm not surprised they have this, but considering what they did, attacking so many others, are they really surprised that it came around to bite them in the ass?
In their minds they're the victims. The Neolithic's defined by a sort of in-group egocentrism.
How come the Tribe of the West pulled out? Also, are they considered part of "The South" that are warring with the Peace Builders?
They pulled out due to the weather and disease hurting them. They took one look at South Lake and thought, 'Eh, the demons from the north'll finish 'em.'
Joy, so I'm guessing that the Mountain Clans will try again against the Island Makers and Arrow Lake then?
Yes.
How likely are the Peace Builders to lose their gains absent outside intervention? Because that is a lot of enemies. I'm assuming the only reasons the Peace Builders are doing so well when a previous update mentioned them losing some of their territory, is due to the weather changes right? Either that or their enemies are that weak.
Hard to say. The Peace Builders are apparently doing better than anyone else who's come as far as they have, however.
Is it absolutely critical that we take the Southern Trade Mission for information right now? Such as if we don't take it, will the Peace Builders start to snowball? Meaning, would we be too late if we took a Southern Trade Mission say next turn?
You don't have to take it right now, but Aeva suspects that time is going to be important.
Noted...I don't remember ever hearing the St. Lawrence as being noted for its agriculture though.
There's a triangle along the St. Lawrence from Brockville in the south, Ottawa in the west, and Quebec City in the north that's filled with farms. Everything from wheat, corn, cattle, milk, potatoes, sweet pepper, etc. is grown there.
The entire area used to be one giant lake, Lake Champlain, during the last ice age and that's made the soil evenly distributed and relatively fertile. It's not as good as the Niagara Peninsula and southwestern Ontario (that is some of the best farmland in the world), but it's high quality.
So wouldn't it be essentially better to be wide rather than tall as that would give us more chances to discover tin? Considering we need tin for Bronze, that seems like a pretty good motivator to go wide before we start rolling for that. When does rolling for tin begin anyways?
Social organization is also extremely important. Technology isn't everything. Rome came to dominant the Mediterranean and it wasn't because of technology. They had a level of social organization and cultural values that propelled them to that point. There's an argument to be made that they were
inferior technologically compared to Carthage or the various Greek petty kingdoms.
Is there a way to gain more actions?
Progressing to the Chalcolithic will give more actions. Advancing your Economic or Government system will also give more actions. Increasing your spawn rate for Heroes (by modifying your values) will also effectively give more actions.
So what is the incentive of going tall aside from not making it exponentially harder to get infrastructure?
Stability. Tall civilizations are far, far, far, far more stable. Venice, for example, existed as a powerful independent polity for something like 1400 years, at times dominating much of the eastern Mediterranean. China was a tall civilization and as such while it crumbled many times, it was never replaced. The Eastern Roman Empire was tall compared to the Western Roman Empire's wide and they were much more stable and wealthy as well as a result.
Wide civilizations fracture and collapse much more easily than tall ones. Wide civilizations are bigger, but much more vulnerable to war and natural disaster. Tall civilizations also tend to be more well developed, they're wealthier, more technologically and culturally advanced as well. They very much play the quality to a wide civilization's quantity.
Firstly, where is Manitoulin Island in all of this?
It's a peninsula. It's along the western side of Rahu bay. Manitoulin island and the other islands in the chain extend all the way back to what would be Saule Ste. Marie in the modern day.
Also, how does Hill Guard factor into all of this? Does it help with our efforts at controlling the bay? I'm guessing not enough.
It helps but it's not enough. It gives you an unassailable foothold, but it doesn't allow you to control.
How do we develop ports like the Island Makers and Pearl Divers have by the way?
You've been rolling for that innovation since you settled Hill Guard. You just haven't developed it yet. Do more fishing if you want to rush it.
Considering the fact that the Island Makers build tall, the Mountain Raiders are about to explode, and Arrow Lake is separated from the Flood Plains by a mountain range, would it not be easier for us to control the Flood Plains here compared to the Bay?
Yes, it's easier to control the east than the west. The lands south of Rahu bay are more fertile, however.
Ahh, okay then, good to know. Are there benefits to having buildings such as this last into later epochs like say the Medieval Era?
Cultural continuity. It's going to make your culture more stable and enduring over time. There's also Legacies available if you avoid collapsing.
I'm assuming money is not currency as that hasn't been invented yet, but instead trade goods?
Yes.
Are their side effects that are related to us having a cultural trade good being dominant that is unique from generating wealth? Such as does this give us more diplomacy or influence?
It counts twice for trade good generating Diplo. After currency is invented, it would give wealth.
Huh...that was more than I expected. So how do you determine if an Art Hero is a craftsman rather than say a shaman or something?
Now that you have Mysticism, those will start differentiating. Art before Mysticism wasn't complex enough to generate different types of heroes. Now Heroes will be one or the other (or for Double Heroes, potentially both).
Are certain actions and behaviors weighted in some fashion? For example, the fact that every time we've dealt with refugees we've always taken them in? Does that narrative come in the stats anywhere?
It does contribute to your stats as well. You haven't taken in refugees in a long time so most of that boost has burned off.
How much would actions like sharing our magic with Arrow Lake and the Pearl Divers help us?
At least 1 point.
Would going back to annihilate the South Lake Tribe help shore up our diplomacy?
After South Lake starts attacking the Island Makers, yes.
So assuming we succeed with repairing our relationship with the Northlands for killing their shaman, would that help? As it's not like we intended to.
It would help.
So assuming that our martial would the highest, it would've been siphoned off to buoy the rest of our stats then? How would that be seen narratively?
Warriors are being forced to give up their martial training to plug gaps in the People's resource base. This is immensely unpopular and makes the warriors quite mad.
Comparatively how do we look compared to everyone else? As I'm sure other tribes are more in the negative than us.
The other tribes don't have a Mystcism score so they're a bit better in that regard. Generally, their peak stats aren't as high as yours; they're more consistent.
How focused are rolls? Do you just roll for a region and then figure out or are rolls more narrow for certain events?
There's a general roll for the region i.e. China, or Western Europe, and then sub-rolls to flesh it out. For example, a plague happened and it started somewhere in France.
Well, guess it's time to change my vote, as it sounds like we're the access to salt for the others right?
Yes.
Good to know. So picking this won't upgrade a value or give us new ones then?
It will influence future values, however. Not ones right now.
By building on it do you mean accommodating them? As I'm not sure how egalitarian their society is in terms of outsiders, as I doubt they would like us speaking in their gatherings too often.
By doing this, are we welding ourselves to their side?
It's more that they don't have enough pearls to allow the 'right' people who 'should' be speaking at their gatherings to speak.
Every option, other than ignoring them, will push the Pearl Builders closer.
So we don't need to worry about anyone else taking the Cave of Stars anymore then?
Yes.
So did the map change recently to reflect that or has it always been this way?
I make corrections all the time, but I haven't retconned that much.
How did we gain the original information about this situation then? Mostly curious.
You don't, you heard everything second hand from the Peace Builders.
But even though it's rooted in perspective, would say the others like the Peace Builders acknowledge that we're at the top of the pile? As in, while the perspectives may change, would the overall list still be the same no matter who is looking at it in terms of order?
There's a general acknowledgement of who the top spots are, but not everything is clear to everyone.
Elk? So they don't have mastodons tamed yet?
Not yet.
Is this based on previous games or have Tall civs with this specific behavior pattern actually existed in history? If yes, what was their real world incentive or cultural reason for being that way?
This existed historically. Centralized civilizations (AKA: tall) tend to be much more cohesive, rich, technologically advanced, and better organized. The general trend was for an area to become dominated by an uncentralized group who were then replaced by a centralized power which could more effectively marshal its resources, or the uncentralized group fractured and then some of its fragments eventually became centralized.
The big example for this is Rome. As a whole it was decentralized, with the periphery existing solely as a form of extracted wealth for the center. It slowly broke down in multiple polities over time since the center could no longer adequately control and support all of the periphery states. The roman empire was eventually subdivided (Diocletian divided the empire in four) to make administration easier. Some of these fell, but the Eastern Roman Empire reorganized, centralized, and developed as a whole region and went on to outlast the rest of the empire by 1000 years.
Could you give some examples of what things like that we have been doing currently/lately? Also, how does that "consume" our magic stat? I thought that stat represents how comparatively advanced our knowledge is when it comes to impressive natural secrets.
Consume probably isn't the right word, redirected is likely better. What you're doing is having the Holy Orders act externally to shore up the People's reputation. To most people, it's
extremely intimidating when an Ember-Eye starts a fire by pouring water on wood (they only use a little to dampen lime which then starts an exothermic chemical reaction). Creating the temple was also an exercise of magic (primarily masonry) to raise your cultural capital (diplomacy) among other tribes.
How does one "boost" intellectual capabilities with masonry and chemistry?
Making people interested in it. Holy Orders are basically using their magic to get kids interested in becoming part of their holy order. The kids growing up around this ubiquitously used magic makes them develop intellectually.
Does automatizing infrastructure like that increase the costs of building a settlement as well? I mean, say we go through insane efforts and end up having a 5 meter ivory statue in every settlement for 3 consecutive turns. That doesn't mean that ivory will suddenly be free and easy to install in every new town, will it?
Or what about things like castles in the future? While I can see us having those in every important place at some point in the future, it neither makes sense for every pioneering settler to build a fortress first thing within the first 25 years of a town even existing, but neither does it seem sensible to have every single castle require a specific decision on our side forever just because one in 8 towns doesn't have one.
Settlements are a bit of a misnomer. They're better thought of as 'the smallest centralized administrative unit'. Most of the People don't live in the settlements, but around them in very small communities. The actual settlement is only a fraction of a part of what goes into making a new settlement. Over time, the settlements will evolve to be provincial and regional capitals.
Does that mean that essentially only one Pearl Diver settlement has asked us to build salterns for them? Would doing so mean that the settlement closest to us suddenly becomes the richest and most important one of them unless they actually figure out how we built them those salterns and show it to their brothers further east?
The settlement where you'll build the salterns is the third one to the east. The westernmost Pearl Diver settlement actually only has brackish water (well, it's fresh or salty depending on whether the tide is coming in or out), The Pearl Diver's council as a whole is asking for your assistance. The individual settlement you help is likely to become more influential. There's degrees involved here though. The east produces a lot more food while most of their salt is produced in the west.
That sounds awfully familiar. But where's the human sacrifices, cattle slavery and xenophobic superiority complex at?
I couldn't quite fit that in with only six values.
Wait, are most shamans actually hallucinating or otherwise suffering from what in modern days would be considered a mental illness? I though those were just a subsection, with many others being simply well versed in some useful magic and/or have strong opinions on the will of the spirits and the charisma and intuitive insight to back it up. How exactly does one get recognized and nominated a shaman outside of holy orders? Who decides who to feed for free and who is just a useless fool with crazy ideas that don't make sense? I mean if our independent shamans are really just a bunch of crazies then they should constantly and publicly be disagreeing on the will of the spirits. Such a thing would be untenable, especially in the face of organized holy order wise men who can back up their claims with magic.
Also, regarding the chronic lying, hasn't that been practiced by countless people throughout history and in all cultures in the form of fortune tellers, hand readers, mediums, snake oil vendors, cult leaders and who knows what else? And isn't endless and consistent lying to get through life more easily, even without any supernatural flair, something seen so frequently it may as well be considered an integral part of the human experience?
A lot of what would be 'normal' shaman are being sucked up into your Holy Orders. A lot of your unaffiliated shaman have mental or physical disabilities because you currently lack enough resources to have 'normal' shaman. Shaman select and teach their own, while they might pick weird people, they could pick the lucky, the lame, the wise, those with positive traits, or others that don't matter like handedness.
To some extent, historically, mental or physical disability were signs of magic. For example, the words obsession is a cousin of possession and refers to the interference of demons on a person's psyche. Epilepsy used to be called the 'divine disease'. People with genu recurvatum were immortalized as monsters in many cultures. Individuals with William's Syndrome inspired tales of changlings or fey.
People faking to be spirit-touched does happen. If you want power, though, why not get yourself elected to be a representative of a longhouse? Shaman are respected, but they're not well-liked. If you lie about being spirit-touched, and you're caught, then you're quite likely to get beaten to death.
Are they often backstabbed and sneaked upon by people who pretend to be their friends then?
They think they are.
Wait, is Rahu Bay salt water? Or do you mean naval power on a small enough scale that naval warfare on a lake will be an actually important facet of life?
Rahu Bay is enormous. It's surface area is something like 15,000 km
2. You're in the Great Lakes region. There are some
massive lakes; they're big enough to generate sea-like conditions. Travel on them can be quite dangerous, especially in storm season.
Oh no. Does this mean the People have a reputation for being flaky and unreliable?
More mercurial.
So in theory we could use all the pearls we buy to dominate their politics according to their own laws? I don't even want to know what crisis we would start if we learn how to cultivate pearls with our own shell aquaculture.
The crisis is more that they're running out of pearls to let them speak at their own government gatherings.
What exactly is considered magical there? Or in other words, what animal-related tricks and wisdoms do our traders see, get impressed by, and report back home that lets our shamans decide "The people of the Northlands are well versed in magicks of Bonds and Beasts"?
If you don't want to spoil the mystery by downright stating the science behind what they are doing, feel free to only tell us how what they do appears to a member of our tribe.
They've some how managed to make it so that the caribou they hunt
don't run away. The sheer amount of frustration that caused among your hunters was humerous to behold.
Huh. Is every veteran member of the holy orders a shaman then? I thought that it was simply that they had many shamans among their numbers and following things they learned there but that at least a plurality were still just elite warriors or hunters with magical blessings and such.
Yes. Holy Orders are basically mystery cults so there's an enormous overlap between them and shaman or 'wise men' type rolls. Most people who're accepted into a holy order eventually transition to a shaman-like role.
All those are nice benefits, but I don't think it's worth tossing 3 free legitimacy and stability out the window to get those benefits everywhere a few turns earlier. We've been handed a license to pull at the seams of society while in the middle of a mega-project purpose build to do just that. Honestly, if i had thought of this before I might have advocated for overmaxing one of our values with the temple, but then again we really do need to deal with FAO.
If you wait on building the temples, all of the accumulated skills you've developed from building the first temple are going to disappear. They'll be forgotten. Do you want to try replicating them in the future, but at a time where you don't have an Admin/Art Hero? An Admin/Art hero is literally the ideal person to have organizing this and the only reason it was possible at all. The only one better would be a Genius and you don't have access to them yet.
