[X] Plan Admin Council
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Develop a group whose responsibility it is to ensure enough specialists are trained without wasting food.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Tribes)
-[X] [Action] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Admin] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] Food
Now that we know that this teach option creates administrators and not teachers I've made an alternative to plan learn your way
So assuming the Mountain Clans fracture and collapse like they are going to. What other opponents do Arrow Lake even have? I mean they're going to need to either develop a hereditary slave caste or raid others to keep up their slave system. And considering how brutal they are, I doubt the former is likely to happen naturally.
Hereditary slave caste is actually the most likely to happen naturally, it requires no effort, it happens to a low status social class which can't fight back, and their warrior class are fresh off victory with nobody to fight.
Slave raiding on an economically lucrative scale is rarer unless you have intensive agriculture.
So essentially the winning options were centralize, which was this option: [ ] [Teach] Empower the Big Men. Given them the ability to formally direct the labour and resources of others, move to a hereditary system, which was this option: [ ] [Teach] Delegate authority to longhouse leaders, make them responsible for organizing and training labourers, and possibly the memory/admin related option but I'm not sure if we have that yet as we don't have writing yet.
I'm not entirely sure if the option that's in the winning plan matches what you've illustrated so far. So...maybe change is needed before the vote locks...
Apprenticeship is the De Facto Hereditary route.
So lets say you have Smith Kupa, he's culturally expected to take and train an apprentice. Does he train:
1) This random kid who's patient and brawny
OR
2) His son Kupe
The majority of the time the artisan will take their children to be apprentices, as they can start even earlier in life.
So lets take Apprenticeship coupled to Blood Brothers and I Want To Be The Very Best, you're going to end up with a scenario where your apprentice is going to be socially considered your child, whether or not they're your blood kin. Its a pretty big deal.
I'd expect a large increase in economic power. All that manpower hauling wood would be replaced by a quarter their number in woodcutters and professional ashers.
Hereditary slave caste is actually the most likely to happen naturally, it requires no effort, it happens to a low status social class which can't fight back, and their warrior class are fresh off victory with nobody to fight.
Slave raiding on an economically lucrative scale is rarer unless you have intensive agriculture.
Apprenticeship is the De Facto Hereditary route.
So lets say you have Smith Kupa, he's culturally expected to take and train an apprentice. Does he train:
1) This random kid who's patient and brawny
OR
2) His son Kupe
The majority of the time the artisan will take their children to be apprentices, as they can start even earlier in life.
So lets take Apprenticeship coupled to Blood Brothers and I Want To Be The Very Best, you're going to end up with a scenario where your apprentice is going to be socially considered your child, whether or not they're your blood kin. Its a pretty big deal.
Thus, its now a hereditary system.
I'd expect a large increase in economic power. All that manpower hauling wood would be replaced by a quarter their number in woodcutters and professional ashers.
Fair enough, but I think something we might want to think about, considering the emphasis the QM put in his reply, is reworking or creating a plan that deals with handling the collapsing Mountain Clans.
Automatic Actions: Expand Aquaculture (Rice, Fishing), Manage Hunting (Dogs), Prepare for Ordeal, Trade (Arrow Lake, Island Makers, Pearl Divers, Northlands)
These are the current actions we have locked in already. Inside of them we already have three food producing actions. that is fishing, rice collecting, and hunting with dogs.
I think in this case that with that being taken into account, when we look at the actions chosen we can afford to replace a few of the options in your chosen plan.
[X] Plan Win the War
-[X] [Recall] No
-[X] [Value] Yes
-[X][Action] Raid (Northlands)
-[X][Action] Expand Hunting (Dogs)
-[X][Admin] The Hunt -> Primitive Herding
-[X][Art] Study Travel -> Summer Dog Sleds
-[X][Tribute] Megaprojects (The Hunt, The Hunt)
When we take at the actions we chose the previous full turn, we can see that in essence we only had three food producing actions like we did this turn. As rice and fishing were locked in at that point and expanding hunting with dogs was chosen to lock it in. To me that indicates that we can likely afford to not take the food tribute action this turn as not only are we going to lock in farming quinoa this turn, but also our hunting with dogs locked in action should be more efficient due to the megaproject being complete for it.
With all that being the case here is the plan or plan modifications I would make:
[X] Plan Learn Our Ways
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Action] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] Food
Looking at your plan, I agree that taking salt this turn would be a good idea, as it provides us with both material and diplomatic benefits.
Similarly, now that you've explained how the apprenticeship system is likely going to be a mostly hereditary one, I am fine with that as the option for solving our skill issue, though I also wouldn't have minded the big man option either for centralization.
When it comes to the North I think that the shaman decision is one that we should keep as well as we already are similar enough to them that all we need to do to nudge them to become closer and assimilate with us is to change their sister value that is similar to supernal symphony into supernal symphony and then absorb them later.
Now for the actions themselves, here are what I would keep. We need to lock in quinoa so choosing it is a must. Similarly we also need to produce sugar to mitigate the production of salt, potentially lock it in later so that we don't have to worry about it later. Raiding the Peace Builders is a must for our stability. Finally, raising a temple is something we need to do to make it so that we can lock in Aeva's gains as well as help with our low stability and legitimacy.
Now for what I would change I would replace train warriors with either Trade (Mountain Clans) or Raid (Mountain Clans) and then replace our tribute from food to war.
Here is my reasoning. Right now the Mountain Clans are collapsing this turn, considering how close they are to us this will likely be the only chance we have on influencing how they collapse. That being said, this is an opportunity for us. Rather than have them constantly raid our periphery while Priit and his warriors go off to war, I think we can afford to potentially trade with them and maybe take them in as refugees, which we've done before with others, or raid them before we raid the Peace Builder's enemies in order to deter them.
When it comes to changing our Tribute option, I personally think that we have enough food right now to survive. We still have a small surplus, and with the actions we've chosen and that are currently locked in we will have four food producing choices this turn. That is why I think it might be a good idea to switch to war as our choice of action. We're already committed to a raid so I think that if we choose this we can regain the train warriors option we lost and possibly increase our chances of getting further warriors or more success if war is our focus.
In essence my plan would look like:
[] Plan Two Fronts
-[] [Salt] Yes
-[] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[] [Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[] [Action] Raid (Mountain Clans) or Trade (Mountain Clans)
-[] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[] [Tribute] War
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jun 22, 2018 at 6:03 AM, finished with 55 posts and 22 votes.
[X] Plan Learn Our Ways
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Clans)
-[X] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] War
[X] Plan Learn Our Ways(mountain edition)
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Tribes)
-[X] [Action] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Admin] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] Food
[X] Plan Sugar and Spices (with a side order of War)
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Limit the amount of skill needed to be an adult, numerous dilettante can serve just as well as a specialist.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Tribute Focus] Spirit
[X] Plan Admin Council
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Develop a group whose responsibility it is to ensure enough specialists are trained without wasting food.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Tribes)
-[X] [Action] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Admin] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] Food
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jun 23, 2018 at 11:02 PM, finished with 71 posts and 24 votes.
[X] Plan Learn Our Ways
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Clans)
-[X] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] War
[X] Plan Sugar and Spices (with a side order of War)
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Limit the amount of skill needed to be an adult, numerous dilettante can serve just as well as a specialist.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (The Fingers)
-[X] [Tribute Focus] Spirit
[X] Plan Learn Our Ways(mountain edition)
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Tribes)
-[X] [Action] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Admin] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] Food
[X] Plan Admin Council
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Develop a group whose responsibility it is to ensure enough specialists are trained without wasting food.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Tribes)
-[X] [Action] Train Warriors (Warriors)
-[X] [Admin] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] Food
Fair enough, but I think something we might want to think about, considering the emphasis the QM put in his reply, is reworking or creating a plan that deals with handling the collapsing Mountain Clans.
Now for what I would change I would replace train warriors with either Trade (Mountain Clans) or Raid (Mountain Clans) and then replace our tribute from food to war.
[X] Plan Learn Our Ways
-[X] [Salt] Yes
-[X] [Teach] Have teachers take apprentices by finding promising children, like the Holy Orders do.
-[X] [North] Put the People's shaman in with the Northlands as advisers or leaders to their new High Shaman.
-[X] [Action] Expand Agriculture (Quinoa)
-[X] [Action] Trade (Mountain Clans)
-[X] [Admin] Manage Forests (Sugar)
-[X] [Martial] Raid (Enemies of Peace Builders)
-[X] [Art] Raise Temple (Crystal Lake)
-[X] [Tribute] War
@veekie
I think we can probably select multiple teach options. QM has indicated that the economic planning board is actually an economic planning board. Look more interesting now?
@veekie
I think we can probably select multiple teach options. QM has indicated that the economic planning board is actually an economic planning board. Look more interesting now?
It's the kind of thing that would stimulate the development of writing: beginning from tallying symbols. Cuneform started literally as things like a picture of wheat next to a number.
Edit: It also means we'll be doing something resembling a census, which is awesome.
The idea of locking in sugar production boosts is nice, but i don't think it's that necessary. It's good this turn to blunt the impact of salt, but after that i would rather have an extra hill or 2 more actions into stone age law. Besides, as noted, it IS pretty labour and fuel intensive.
I'd love that for purely aesthetic purposes. We still need a Holy Order to represent the fourth element/season. Caribou Cavalry is the perfect representative for Spring/Air as long as navy isn't a thing yet. The Fangs would then be Autumn/Earth of course.
It's the kind of thing that would stimulate the development of writing: beginning from tallying symbols. Cuneform started literally as things like a picture of wheat next to a number.
Edit: It also means we'll be doing something resembling a census, which is awesome.
Been there. Not that PoC is a perfect reference, but I did the exact same stunt to push the development of Early Algebra by mucking with tax complexity.
Leading to a drop of 3 Stability and Legitimacy across the whole event sequence.
...lets just say if we're going to deliberately stress society to generate Writing early, we're better off doing it when we're at full Legitimacy.
Also we're going to trigger Writing soon anyway, we're putting in so many new clauses to society that I'm pretty sure the Stone Age Law trigger should go off within the next two turns. Which would force writing development anyway, in order to track our rules.
@veekie
I disagree, the idea to make a admin council doesn't create a need for writing, the tally writing system we have right now should be good enough to handle it, only a place for it to develop while get stone age law would create a need for writing
Trying to get early algebra by increasing tax complexity like stone age law only creates a need whoch is what stresses the society and can lower stability and legitimacy
Been there. Not that PoC is a perfect reference, but I did the exact same stunt to push the development of Early Algebra by mucking with tax complexity.
Leading to a drop of 3 Stability and Legitimacy across the whole event sequence.
...lets just say if we're going to deliberately stress society to generate Writing early, we're better off doing it when we're at full Legitimacy.
Also we're going to trigger Writing soon anyway, we're putting in so many new clauses to society that I'm pretty sure the Stone Age Law trigger should go off within the next two turns. Which would force writing development anyway, in order to track our rules.
Beyond that, these options are already innovation from societal stress. Implementing the one that requires a second innovation to not stress society even more seems wasteful of stability even if we are at max, especially since double down exists as an alternative way of spending stability.
@veekie
I disagree, the idea to make a admin council doesn't create a need for writing, the tally writing system we have right now should be good enough to handle it, only a place for it to develop while get stone age law would create a need for writing
Trying to get early algebra by increasing tax complexity like stone age law only creates a need whoch is what stresses the society and can lower stability and legitimacy
The big deal here is that the approach actually requires a lot of communications. Tallys are counts. You need labels, because you need to distinguish between baskets of corn, meat, wood and lime. Which means you need ideograms or icons. You need to move these tallys independently of the goods if you want a central committee to use them for planning and organization
THAT is writing.
Not an alphabet, but the use of symbolic representations.
Separate from all that, some more questions: what does double down actually do and why do we have control of it now? Because we raised our centralization?
Trial By Fire (Maxed Development)
Tests and trials are a way of life for the People. They separate corns from the husk and the weak from the capable. Those who struggle and overcome the opposition of men and spirits are the ones that the People should look to for guidance. The spirits have put them through the crucible and refined them into something great. Those who prove themselves by overcoming adversity are righteous.
Pros: People are more willing to endure hardship, can spend Stability in order to double down on failed/incomplete actions, increased appreciation for experience
Cons: Increased costs for 'failure', 'I can do it, damn it!'
It comes from our 'Trial By Fire' Legacy, and it lets us spend stability for an extra chance at an action. I think we've had it for a while, though I don't know if it's normally explicitly stated at the end of an update like the most recent one.
Edit: It seems we got Trial By Fire in thread-mark 13.0, after we fused Ordeal of Fire with Double Down. But I'm not seeing where we originally got Double Down. Maybe we got in when we absorbed The Hundred Bands?
It comes from our 'Trial By Fire' Legacy, and it lets us spend stability for an extra chance at an action. I think we've had it for a while, though I don't know if it's normally explicitly stated at the end of an update like the most recent one.
