From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
Uh dude, he was at war and can do simple math. She had a child when he was physically unavailable to impregnate her due to being at the front.
- Location
- United States
I think but am not sure that arguing for the old laws might do this by allowing for multiple methods for becoming an adult. Hopefully it's not just a grandfather clause.
- Location
- Somewhere
I was talking the abuse of power the big man placed on prit, you chose to completely ignore. No one with power stopped the abuse. The issue he used to draw support to him.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
He was a prick who slaughtered an entire longhouse, and many other warriors besides. He refused to stop when the Big Man told him to stop, and gained ascendance only because he happened to be a Fang. While being a Fang afford you many privileges, the right to slaughter an entire longhouse of people is not one of them.
- Location
- USA
For following the laws that we established? Flat Arrow Outlook and past decisions regarding debtors and how food is to be collected are precedents which if viewed through that lens, vindicate him legally.
It has been previously mentioned before countless times that one of the most common causes for violence was trouble over women. It's no surprise that he is pissed off at how he was treated as he was made an example of, with a harshly excessive punishment compared to how these issues were handled in the past.
He is not the cause of the problems here, merely a symptom of the issues. The only reason this has ballooned as much as it has is because of the decision last turn to punish him through completely arbitrary reasoning.
There was evidence that the woman cheated on him. If he was at the war front for a long enough time, he should be able to the simple enough math to connect two and two over whether or not that child was his.
How was this justice when considering the previous traditions of the People in this regard, in terms of how debtors are treated and how disputes over women are resolved with violence, Priit was following simple precedent even if his example here was in the extreme?
He was abused in the sense that he was forced to pay for his crime in a manner that was seen as excessive when in previous cases that amount was much lower. Six lifetimes worth of food was what was said he owed. Six times. Considering debtors don't have to pay nearly as much, I do see that as excessive.
If we used some of the reasoning behind consequential justice, it could be argued that the other two Big Men in sentencing Priit as they did harmed the People directly through their actions, regardless of their intent. Which they did. The war turned against us in that moment and was only stopped due to his intervention.
As for your charge of him taking charge through murder? Well, he didn't throw the first blow in this instance, and his reasoning on calling out the Big Man of the Fingers matches exactly with how Consequential Punishment would have viewed things. He turned the rules against the Big Man of the Fingers, as his decision did cause harm to the People. The fact that the Big Man of the Fingers chose to attack that moment would give enough justification to say that he acted in self-defense.
Also it's hard to take seriously your claim that he acted this way due to a personal grudge when the update itself said that the punishment inflicted upon him by the Big Man of the Fingers was also due to a personal grudge. It's hard to make either of them seem bad when both were doing so.
- Location
- Somewhere
True, but the big man wasn't stopping, and the abuse was really blantant to beyond just enough.
This situation isn't a clean good vs evil story some comments seem to paint the conflict as.
- Location
- United States
I agree that six lifetimes of food was too much of a fine. In fairness, it was still far less than what the other options we had to vote on were (i.e. execution, exile) and we couldn't have known it would be harsher than the treatment that the Debtors get. But how was he acting in self defense when the Big Man only ordered his arrest after he attempted to take power? And for the personal grudge I wasn't referring to how he killed the Big Man but how he is threatening Aeva's position just because she ruled against him. This can lead to civil war.
Naw, the Fingers Big Man personally hated him enough to use a loophole to stack additional charges arbitrarily. Its a good idea to make weregild a thing for ending feuds but the checks on power aren't there yet so the Fingers Big Man could Catch 22 him.
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- Location
- Festering in a vat of acid
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Its fine, He is fine. We will survive this and become stronger for it. Remember, eventually he will die and we can pick up the pieces.
Yeah but the update said is arguement isn't strong and can be argued around. Him lossing the agruement means he losses his support and isn't a threat. If he wins the arguement he gains control and there is no civil war.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
You know all those Thou Shalt Not's in the bible? Yeah, they exist because of assholes like Priit.
There's an extremely important point in Priit's story and his character that I haven't seen anyone comment on yet. It's really subtle and not explicitly spelled out so I'm not surprised people haven't noticed it. Check 17.1 to see if you can figure out what it is. It's probably going to be the first thing that comes up when we switch over to Priit's perspective.
If you pick the Annual Festival action, yes. Not if you pick the Trade action. How that one resolves will depend on rolls and other factors.
Your law code is simply too complex. You have laws for:
1) Debt Slavery
2) War Captive Slavery
3) Extremely high punishment for food thieves
4) Lax punishments for interpersonal violence
5) Slightly reduced punishments witnesses who don't speak out
6) Punishment based on consequences, not actions (This interacts extremely poorly with the last and next points)
7) Weregild
8) Primitive family law
All of this is administered by Big Men (People who basically only have positions within the tribe due to nepotism and favours trading). It's too subjective and easily abused.
This actually would've been fine if you hadn't added the last three all this turn. The laws simply have grown too far, too fast and leave too much up to the deliberations of the Big Men.
Fining Priit was the worst decision there, it's too subjective to easily quantified, especially when you also punish consequences. Killing him would've been better purely from a legal perspective. Of course, if you had done that, Priit wouldn't have been able to single handedly save you this phase.
Lucky really should've been underlined and highlighted there. Militarily they've bumbled from success to even bigger success for the past 6 phases.
Not yet, but you are pushing the system in that direction!
Depends if you think you've slaughtered enough of them. The Northlands' military is currently rated at "Slaughtered Cavalry". Are you feeling lucky, punk?
Yes.
Most likely, yes. There's another solution as well that would be found on this decision tree but it's less likely you'll pick it. You've already missed the solution this turn.
He didn't slaughter a longhouse. Most of the People he fought off survived (although it's possible some could have been fatally injured), the six deaths he was punished for occurred in the riot immediately after he managed to grab his ex-wife and leave.
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- Location
- USA
Except that is not what happened. That is only one side of the story which you are portraying, while also leaving out key details.
Firstly, when we look to the facts of what had happened in that case. If you look at the excerpt above, both of the other Big Men, even the one from the Fingers, agreed that Priit was right in his assertion that there was a lack of paternity here. Meaning that the woman was stealing food from him in all senses of the word, and that she did so knowingly. Considering how important food was in this era, he was right to assert himself by the laws of the People.
Secondly, the story about his slaughter of the longhouse is in dispute. While it is not in dispute that he killed members of the woman's longhouse, what is in dispute is the story behind it. I find it hard to rail against his character when now that we know more about him, his story seems more likely than that of his accusers. If he truly did not care for justice then why would he still try to present the woman and child to the Big Man of the Fingers for trial when he could've easily exacted his own justice instead? If he did not care for the laws of the People and is as privileged as you are making him appear to be, then why did he not simply leave when levied with such heavy fines? He could've easily shirked his duties, not starved, and went elsewhere. Instead he came back to save the People from the Northlands when for all intents and purposes I would not have faulted him for leaving at his treatment. If we take everything into account concerning the facts of the trial, then yes he was right in what he did. While the outcome of it was horrible, his reasoning using our own laws at the time were not. With both Big Men believing the paternity of the child was in dispute, his own action showing that he did show mercy to the previous husband of his divorced wife, and now his character seen through more actions, I believe he really did try to get justice in his own way.
Unlike what people are saying, I don't think he simply walked into the longhouse and slaughtered them all for no reason. If even the Big Man of the Fingers acknowledged that the paternity was in dispute, than what does that say about his case? Also, you said that he did not stop when the Big Man of the Fingers told him to. In this first case, he actually did!
By taking the other side of the story, your bias against him here is clear.
He was right to take the actions he did the second time against the Big Man of the Fingers as you will see below he had no other recourse.
Except the option for the fines was said to have been Excessive it was even italicized for emphasis. When the option is put in contrast by other extreme examples like death and exile, we should've known that it would've been excessive in comparison, as he was literally fighting while starving himself in defense of the People against the Northlands. It's rather hard to pillory him here when for all intents and purposes he could've simply decided to leave the People to their fate against the Ivory Blooded Chief rather than continue to pay off his debt even if it was likely easier to leave and use his skills elsewhere so that he wasn't starving.
Looking at this excerpt from the update specifically, it is hard to say Priit was not justified when the Big Man of the Fingers really was out to get him.
Six Lifetimes worth of food he had to pay, something seen as deeply unusual when even criminals would not have to pay the same price for their freedom. His legal status put in limbo.
Then there is the fact that the Big Man of the Fingers kept trying to hammer him with this finding. If he tried to pay off his fine that we levied on him, he would've been seen as negligent to his duty as a warrior in aiding the war effort. If he had focused on the war effort, he would've been seen as negligent in failing to pay his fines. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
No one can say in any similar instance that he was not justified in his anger when he was essentially put in an unwinnable situation due to the grudge harbored by the Big Man of the Fingers who really did have it out for him. Under the precedent WE set, what other recourse did he have? We gave the Big Man extreme powers, and with a Big Man who hated him as much as this, what choice did he have aside from trying to take power. Aeva herself even saw it as the travesty it was.
So yes, this was self-defense if we take in all the facts and actually look at things through his lens rather than just labeling him a trouble maker for not agreeing with some of our views and disbelieving him at every turn. It is at this point clear that the Big Man of the Fingers was going to likely have him punished or killed for his actions due to the enmity against him. Legally Priit had not other recourse. Should Priit have just laid down and died, as that was would've happened if he was taken prisoner? Under the laws of the People and the precedent set, what other recourse did he have?
As for his grudge against Aeva. If we take a look at things through his view, sure he is upsetting the balance and the peace through pursuing his grudge against her, except legally speaking he is correct. By our own laws, something we acknowledged could later be a problem. Aeva is not an adult. While his choice can lead to civil war. It is also arguably true that some of the voters last turn bear some responsibility, and Aeva in this case as their avatar does, for jeopardizing the war effort and potentially fracturing the People.
He was done a great injustice, so I can see where he is coming from in pursuing his grudge against others. Especially as this combination with Blood Brothers made this inevitable.
Pieces we caused to be shattered in the first place in what is now clearly a rather arbitrary decision, that does not seem at all like justice.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Yeah, I am biased against him. I simply dont like his attitude.
Bite me.
- Location
- United States
Does he have PTSD from the fighting? He's been a child soldier fighting for much of his life.
- Location
- USA
Wow how petty.
Good to know that we can likely put your opinion as firmly in the biased category here. Especially as all of your arguments are both biased, one sided, and fallacious.
- Location
- a
I don't see the problem with prit here really.
He beat up the guy her wife cheated on?
Well that's fair, he was nice enough not to kill the bastard
He got to his wife longhouse and demands to bring everyone who was using his food rations to the big man?
Yes that's ok.
He beat up the people who attacked him, and nice enough to not simply kill them all?
No problem here really.
After being given a fucking SIX LIFETIME WORTH OF DEBT, he removes the big man using his own trick, which is actually kinda true considering prit could defeat the Northlanders earlier? Yes this is also still legit. Besides he obviously held a grudge for the guy who have really unjustly treated him.
Now, seeks to remove her aunt who let the unjust proceedings go? Yeah, that isn't nice but cmon she is kinda guilty for letting it pass here.
He beat up the guy her wife cheated on?
Well that's fair, he was nice enough not to kill the bastard
He got to his wife longhouse and demands to bring everyone who was using his food rations to the big man?
Yes that's ok.
He beat up the people who attacked him, and nice enough to not simply kill them all?
No problem here really.
After being given a fucking SIX LIFETIME WORTH OF DEBT, he removes the big man using his own trick, which is actually kinda true considering prit could defeat the Northlanders earlier? Yes this is also still legit. Besides he obviously held a grudge for the guy who have really unjustly treated him.
Now, seeks to remove her aunt who let the unjust proceedings go? Yeah, that isn't nice but cmon she is kinda guilty for letting it pass here.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Your entire post was accusatory in tone and very provocative, or I felt that it came off as that way. I dont feel inclined to be cooperative with you. I want to resolve this issue too, if Priit turns out to be a good leader, fine, whatever, I wont get butthurt.
But all I have seen from him is a prick using his ability and position to thrust us to the brink of civil war.
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