- Location
- USA
Ah. I interpreted that to mean that it won't matter if you do not choose to punish him, and assumed it would still apply. Either way, I was going to go err with caution on this vote.
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
Ah. I interpreted that to mean that it won't matter if you do not choose to punish him, and assumed it would still apply. Either way, I was going to go err with caution on this vote.
It would count as 1/3.
You're not at risk of losing The Hill as an extended project, no matter how long you wait. It's simply packed earth and stone stacked on top of itself, it's too simple to really forget, especially when compared to a stone temple.
I guess, but it's not going to really do anything for you. It would limit your cultural flexibility and thus the tools you have to respond to problems in the short term.
Once you uncap IWTBTVB,however, it's going to immediately upgrade into the next level of Elite as a pure Elite value. That's good since it doubles down on what's nice about the Elite trait, but also bad because it augments its worst aspects as well. The thread may be happier if they mix something else with IWTVTVB in order to redirect or moderate it.
A huge reason why PoC crashed and burned was because the thread doubled down too much on their Elite value until they got Divinely Glorious Elites.
It was like 90% Do or Die that was leading them to commit suicide by Chief. OHCH also promoted it a bit, but without Do or Die, it wouldn't have happened.
I don't think I've given them yet. You're scheduled to pick them up next sub-phase. You're waiting on your workers to come back which will let you know what their current values are.
It starts doing more once you hit Specialization 4.
Summerized dog sleds was the development I was thinking of. It greatly increases tactical speed and is as close to cavalry as you can get. Now, the sleds break constantly, tend to lead their users with back or leg injuries from all the shocks, and are only useful on the offense (you don't have enough trails to use them practically in defense yet), but they help.
Northlands: 96
You: 75
Peace Builders 7
The Ivory-Blooded Chief is reusing the tusks; he's not an animal! He cares for the environment.
You're just not seeing him go back to collect the old ones.
No. The Northlands has the highest hero generation chance of all current factions, but he wasn't scripted.
He is a man-beast warrior.
Not practically. The technology and social organization you'd need would be Bronze Age, at least. What you can do long term is build more trails.
Summer dogs sleds were what I was thinking of.
You're going to stir your territory up next phase to have an abundance of carnivores and then systematically drive them north to screw with the Northlands' herds. It wouldn't be as effective against a settled peer, but it could hurt.
You're actually evening out the boom-bust cycle. The cycle is inherently unstable and it's only a local maxima. If all of the animals exist in consistent, predictable proportions, then the carrying capacity as a whole is higher. This is, of course, sub-optimal for the fittest animals, but as humans, you don't care about 'natural selection' or any of that nonsense.
The safe hunting cap is how much you can hunt before you start to irreparably deplete the numbers of natural wildlife and start damaging your ecosystem.
Manage Hunting involves deliberately culling invalid or sick animals, allowing mothers and juveniles to survive, protecting habitats, and deliberately rotating hunting grounds in order to allow populations to recover. Expand Hunting was just: "Yeah, lets go out an slaughter some meat."
It's more effective, reliable, and sustainable. It dampens damage due to climate rolls and provides extra Econ score for doing it. It also allows you to hunt more before doing long-term environmental damage.
Not as much as you'd like. It gets a lot better against higher tech civilizations.
The bonus applies to basically everything you can currently build. It won't in the future (it wont enhance theaters, for example). The guiding question is really: can this be made to work with terrain in order to be more effective? If yes, then it will be done that way. The Value is very strong (tier 3 traits are) is that things like Temples cost more: 1 full tier of permanent Econ per action and you're obligated to now build a Hill, Temple, Dam, or Trails every turn until you run out of valid targets.
This is the first time.
If he kills the Ivory-Blooded Chief? Certain. Even if he survives, it's almost certain.
Hill Guard hold the Fangs. The Hunt is inspired by that Holy Order so their shrine gets upgraded first due to that relationship (Aeva also thinks it's going to be politically good to give it to them due to Priit's trial).
Hand or Fist is actually a tier 2 "Grudge" value. It's basically the thought of "I expect everyone to hurt and disappoint me, but this time I'm going to let them do it once, before my fist meets their face." The biggest thing that it would do is force you to use Casus Belli in order to declare war. (Once you have a Cassus Belli, it would stick around for a very, very long time.)
You need to discover Copper before you can do The Hunt v. 2.
15%. Prize Animals can be successfully hunted about 55% of the time now.
2/3. You'll get more values over time so you'll need more in common. After a certain point (mid-Bronze Age), you stop being able to automatically merge, though.
An unmodded roll of 90. Your modifiers to rolls are in the neighbourhood of +60 (a little bit better than other war-focused civilizations) so it wouldn't be a modded roll.
Peace Builder intermarriage will get brought up in 17.2. Given the trial, I want to know how you resolve it because that will be very relevant for marriage in the future.
Truce and everyone is recovering this turn. They want at least one generation of young warriors to grow up without going into the meat grinder.
The Peace Builders honestly did not expect to be hit as hard as they have helping you.
Yes.
You're not sure.
You always want to raid if you're at war. If you're not, that's basically you just ceding ground to your enemies without an organized response.
The Mountain Clans managed to damage something important. Mostly by accident, to be honest.
1/3
You don't know.
Heroes are all on the same level. There are higher tiers (Genius, Legend), but those are still locked due to low population. The only person you've gotten who may have rolled high enough to be a Genius (in another time) was Kaspar. You have never rolled high enough for a Legend.
No, they also have a Quantity is Quality, but that's incompatible with your current Values.
It's only possible to use on compact dirt (Trails), during good weather, and it's bumpy as hell. The entire contraption is basically a solid hunk of wood glued and tied together pulled by a team of 12 dogs. They still break all the time and their riders often suffer knee and back injuries. It's not great, it's obvious inferior to all other cavalry, but if it's all you have...
Voting is Open!
How should the People commemorate this project?
[ ] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[ ] [Reward] Annual Festival x2
[ ] [Reward] Manage Hunting x3
[ ] [Reward] Explore x5
[ ] [Reward] Raise Warriors (Holy Orders) x2
Empty Honour Value Slot Detected! Where should a new Value be taken from?
[ ] [Value] Peace Builders
[ ] [Value] Pearl Divers (-1 Stability)
[ ] [Value] Arrow Lake (-1 Stability)
[ ] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[ ] [Value] Develop Internally
Should Priit be punished? (All options cost at least -1 Stability)
[ ] [Priit] No, he acted in accordance with precedent and his personal duty.
[ ] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[ ] [Pritt] Yes, he is clearly lying and went looking to fight, not to fulfill his duty.
[ ] [Pritt] No, he only defended himself.
[ ] [Pritt] Aeva would not vote against her family and abstains. (Vote deadlocks, -1 additional Stability)
[ ] [Pritt] Aeva would not vote against family and abstains alongside the Big Man of Hill Guard. (Big Man of the Fingers convicts.)
[ ] [Pritt] Aeva attempts to lean on her connections to solve the matter privately. (Chance of additional -1 to +1 Stability)
[ ] [Pritt] No, the boy is too important of a warrior to sacrifice.
How severely should he be punished? (You can vote for this, it won't matter if you do not vote to punish Priit)
[ ] [Punishment] Death. (-1 Stability)
[ ] [Punishment] Exile. (???)
[ ] [Punishment] Make Priit a Debtor. (-1 Stability)
[ ] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
How do the Big Men rule on Priit's allegation of food theft?
[ ] [Theft] The woman was no thief. A woman can always expect support from her husband.
[ ] [Theft] The woman was a thief. Taking food from a family with which your child shares no blood is done under false pretenses and a crime.
[ ] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
[ ] [Theft] The woman was a thief, but not of everything she is accused. All of the initial gifts given were hers, but what she asked for later was theft under false pretenses.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
??? It crashed and burned because we had a 1000 year time skip of our people being dumb asses
and then Scripted super human Genghis Khan.Before that we had Heroes and shit...
Anyways
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Priit] No, he acted in accordance with precedent and his personal duty.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
- Location
- Somewhere
[X] [Reward] Explore x5
[X] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
I am not paying attention to stats. This is just stuff I want.
Do we vote by plans in this thread?
[X] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
I am not paying attention to stats. This is just stuff I want.
Do we vote by plans in this thread?
Shadows
Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods
- Location
- USS Civilian, DDG-214
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
Get that potential PB merge going, get us a basically-free temple, move towards a more protective justice system, keep our Hero. The last one is just a more personal preference. It's also Legitimacy neutral.
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
Get that potential PB merge going, get us a basically-free temple, move towards a more protective justice system, keep our Hero. The last one is just a more personal preference. It's also Legitimacy neutral.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Why are you voting for explore? Temples raise legitimacy, and you lose 2 here without any gain.
- Location
- Somewhere
We don't explore anymore. I don't want our civ to slowly not care to explore anymore.
- Location
- nz
[x] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[x] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Pritt] Aeva attempts to lean on her connections to solve the matter privately. (Chance of additional -1 to +1 Stability)
[x] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
[x] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Pritt] Aeva attempts to lean on her connections to solve the matter privately. (Chance of additional -1 to +1 Stability)
[x] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
But your actively hurting that? We need legitimacy... we can't explore if our house is on fire
- Location
- Somewhere
And I acknowledged that by saying I'm ignoring stats in my choices.
I'm not expecting to win.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
My point wasn't about the stats, it was about the future, if our house is on fire because we lost a lot of legitimacy and stability and were at war, its basically suicide.
- Location
- Minnesota
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
[X] [Priit] No, he acted in accordance with precedent and his personal duty.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
[X] [Priit] No, he acted in accordance with precedent and his personal duty.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
- Location
- Somewhere
-2 legitimacy does not feel like a panic button?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[x] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[x] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
We have the temples to counter legitimacy loss. Let's take this chance to reign in Flat Arrow Outlook.
Also, no preference between Northlands and internal, as long as this is the trial result that wins. Otherwise it's definetly northlands for me.
[x] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[x] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
We have the temples to counter legitimacy loss. Let's take this chance to reign in Flat Arrow Outlook.
Also, no preference between Northlands and internal, as long as this is the trial result that wins. Otherwise it's definetly northlands for me.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
1 legitimacy and likely -1 stability however is when were at war against a martial hero.
- Location
- United States
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
What's the difference between making Priit pay fines vs making him a debtor?
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
What's the difference between making Priit pay fines vs making him a debtor?
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
We need that temple for stability after our horrid raid rolls.
As for the traits, anythibg but Northlander traits. We need the PB as alloes, and becoming more like their hated foe is bad for our diplomacy.
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
We need that temple for stability after our horrid raid rolls.
As for the traits, anythibg but Northlander traits. We need the PB as alloes, and becoming more like their hated foe is bad for our diplomacy.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
WELL THEN. Looks like we're going skyscraper tall.
Their values have nothing to due with why the Peace builders hate them. Heck, they probably had relatively little contact before this war.
ThatGazzer
Minds Eye Bind
- Location
- PNW
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship
- Location
- USA
Immediately? As in automatically?
Also, how do we consciously mix another trait with IWTBTVB as it seems like fusing traits is hit or miss sometimes? And I don't think we've ever redirected one of our traits rather than straight up upgraded them, same with moderating them either.
What exactly do we need to do to hit that? A new form of government? More centralization?
The summerized dog sleds were described as primitive. Would studying travel more improve it and give it a better modifier? What kind of modifiers does it give us anyway?
Is this modded or unmodded rolls?
Also are allied war rolls counted separately in battles or are they combined, and if combined how is it weighted?
What exactly were they doing with the ivory beforehand anyway? Do they just keep it around for when someone needs impaling?
Why does the Northlands have the highest hero generation chance?
So, was their really high roll what triggered their hero generation?
Joy, cavalry warrior. Oh well, time to kill Genghis.
Ah okay, that makes sense.
Wouldn't trails hurt us though at the moment as it would help their mobility too?
So, we will likely need to go all in next turn with war stuff as I don't think we can do this many times can we?
So, is Manage Hunts (General) locked in then?
If so, is there any way for us to increase the carrying capacity?
Also, will our animal populations now increase back to their previous levels?
So instead of normally getting one econ score from it, like if it were expand hunting, we would instead get two then?
It seems like this would allow us to get a good surplus if we managed it right.
So I am assuming when you say it gets a lot better, that you mean right now it's not as good, but once it's improved it will be more potent correct?
How so, as in I'm not entirely sure how we could stretch this to make it better against more higher tech civs?
So when you mean costs, do you mean that each and every improvement we make now costs a full tier of econ per action? And if so, what exactly were the bonuses that each of the buildings and improved gave us to help mitigate this?
Do we need to use more math to take into account how taxing building these buildings will be for us now in terms of econ, as we are still at a small surplus?
But they've met other times for other reasons right?
So we should probably make sure that he survives then.
Just for clarification, if we fine him immensely will that effectively take him out of the war? It will obviously make him vengeful, but I'm not sure what it will do for our performance.
That makes sense. Were they the ones who discovered the Hunt info?
What do Grudge Values do? Because right now, I'm not entirely sure what benefit it brings to them, or any it would bring to us as it seems to hem us in when it comes to our decisions.
How is copper related to hunting?
Wow, that makes it much more palatable to hunt for prize animals from now on, considering the bonuses it gives us not only in terms of innovations in technology but also in tactics!
Why that specific cut-off point?
Was that applied earlier?
Also, what's the Northlands and Peace Builder's mod if you can answer them?
Right this is pretty important, so here are their values:
From their social values it seems they are very communally oriented.
On the Other hand their honor and spiritual values seem to indicate that elitism is fine and that Do it Or Die might reinforce Priit's actions.
After all, if we punish Priit too severely, enough so that it hurts the war effort it might go against protective justice. At the same time, if we want to reach a consensus, then maybe it would be best to have Aeva resort to dealing with this through backroom deals?
When it comes to the wife's punishment, she likely should be punished somewhat as in terms of their values she may have broken protective justice.
Overall, I'm not sure how entirely to read the Trial decisions into fitting this into the Peace Builder's values.
Are they likely to pull back soon?
Is there no way to specify something such as allow the enemy to raid into our territory and then catch them in a trap, following that then right?
How did they do it by accident?
And did they damage a canal or something?
What's the difference in terms of the tiers?
That's going to be devastating morale wise for those who don't know how it works. It's going to look like the spirits disapprove of the fight.
...and as a nomadic herder civ, waves of hungry predators is going to take defending against relentless, expert trackers that prioritize their civilians.
Well, over an extended period it's going to deselect animals from either extremes of aggression and physical fitness, and select for fast breeders to take the most advantage of managed boom periods?
Locked into Super Tall then. We're going to want to automate as many of these as we can or we'd break our necks trying.
[x] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[x] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Pritt] Aeva attempts to lean on her connections to solve the matter privately. (Chance of additional -1 to +1 Stability)
[x] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[x] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Anyway, 2 final questions for @Redium before I go back to arguing my case.
So the problem was when it merged with do or die to become "and keeps meeting their face UNTIL MY HAND IS BROKEN"? Not inherent demand for a war to the knife from HoF itself?
Does this require that we finish one thing a turn, or just that we work on one thing a turn? Because otherwise we're screwed when the dam comes up.
[X] [Reward] Raise Temple: Hill Guard 1/2 + 2/2
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
[X] [Priit] No, he acted in accordance with precedent and his personal duty.
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Pritt] Aeva attempts to lean on her connections to solve the matter privately. (Chance of additional -1 to +1 Stability)
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
[X] [Theft] The woman was a thief, but not of everything she is accused. All of the initial gifts given were hers, but what she asked for later was theft under false pretenses.
Do we do approval voting in this quest?
[X] [Value] Peace Builders
[X] [Value] Northlands (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Value] Develop Internally
[X] [Priit] No, he acted in accordance with precedent and his personal duty.
[X] [Priit] Yes, his actions lead to tragedy regardless of intent.
[X] [Pritt] Aeva attempts to lean on her connections to solve the matter privately. (Chance of additional -1 to +1 Stability)
[X] [Punishment] Extract immense fines from Priit. (-1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Theft] The woman was not yet a thief. She would have only stole food once Priit officially ended their relationship.
[X] [Theft] The woman was a thief, but not of everything she is accused. All of the initial gifts given were hers, but what she asked for later was theft under false pretenses.
Do we do approval voting in this quest?
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I also concur, how would a legend handle things compared to a Hero? I assume their so good they are borderline magical at something...
Kasper is close to a genius, being a quad hero.
Get an Obligation or Loyalty trait of some kind. It's the most compatible with elitism.
The Northlands Blood Brothers trait is one example. Arrow Lake's All For One is another
Can't improve the sleds much more without metal tools.
We can get more navigation ideas though.
It sounds like those might be ritual execution tools actually.
Not like ivory is THAT hard to get for nomadic herder/hunters, their relatively low population means they got a lot of ivory per pop.
Nomads have high hero generation because of their environment. We had it while we were nomads and lost it in the transition to settled.
Thing about heroes is that they in reality, spawn ALL the time. But most of them are never discovered, because they live nice, stable lives and never need to exert themselves.
For nomads, they get increased hero generation because nomadic hunters puts heavy selection pressure on society, basically every potential hero will be exposed...in exchange for a high loss of their pop growth to the environment.
For elitist cultures, we get increased hero generation by artificially creating incentives for them to stand out and be recognized, as well as granting near-hero grade persons the food and equipment needed to stand out.
Helps more than it hurts. We know our own trails better, so it mainly improves response time to their raids, and makes it easier to channel them in pursuits into traps.
A big fine basically means we allow the rich and powerful to buy their way out of punishments with weregild.
As a Hero warrior he's probably going to go steal the Northlands ivory to pay that though. Or get his supporters to lend him the wealth to pay it off.
Grudge values are justice values and morale values.
As a Justice value, a grudge value gives a social outlet for unrest, by designating approved targets for offended parties to vent themselves on, rather than escalating to the rest of society. The drawback is that when justice fails, then you get worse unrest than normally would happen.
Our Retributive Justice is a grudge value in itself.
As a morale value, a grudge value gives substantial morale bonuses for conflicts involving a valid grudge, see for instance the Peace Builders going absolutely freaking berserk on the northlands because they offended multiple grudge points, in exchange for not being able to disengage easily.
This is important because ancient warfare is enormously about morale, someone willing to fight you to the death is more likely to win than the one who's concerned about injuries, because they'd try to keep fighting without retreat.
Metal tools is needed for making the tools needed to maintain an expanded project probably.
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