Unless that problem has been solved; in which case, top-tier body, probably nothing better in the world for Deis. Crazy high capacity for magic, fit, even has blue hair to start with!

...Better make sure Caster doesn't try to steal Ciel, actually.
Let's assume she is a bad choice until we find out otherwise.
We can always body-snatch her later but we can't undo 'You've got evil wizard in my goddess!'
Not really a good time to go 'well, Flandre doesn't IC know, so let's do it because it would be funny.'
 
Given how seriously Caster takes Souichirou's safety and how he wasn't connected to the Grail War, I think it's safe to say that she was surprised. She was also not expecting Souichirou to handle Saber the way he did. (And then she throws it all away by being unable to stab a nearly-helpless Servant.)

Probably more that Caster was surprised Saber's Magic Resistance was so strong. Which to be fair, it is pretty bullshit. If it had been B or less, Caster would probably have been fine.

1) The Command was applicable only for the first fight, and he'd already killed Shirou once;
2) Shirou wasn't a Master at the time, therefore Lancer would not be bound by the Command;
3) No one knew that Shirou would become a Master.

I'd actually argue that since the Grail had marked Shirou as a Master and wanted him to summon Saber, in fact since Shirou and Saber meeting is a destined event IIRC that must happen, there might have actually been some behind-the-scenes stacking of the deck. Whether by the Holy Grail, the Counter Force nudging people into place (it can do subtle IIRC), or what have you, it's not impossible something looked at the wording of Lancer's command and it ended up being interpreted such that Shirou got just enough free passes to make sure he summoned Saber.

Let's assume she is a bad choice until we find out otherwise.
We can always body-snatch her later but we can't undo 'You've got evil wizard in my goddess!'

We actually might, if we can see Roa's eye in Deis. Granted, hitting Roa and not Deis may be more precise than Flan is known for, but in theory we might be able to pull a trick similar to Shiki. And we don't have to do it to ourselves....probably.
 
Probably more that Caster was surprised Saber's Magic Resistance was so strong. Which to be fair, it is pretty bullshit. If it had been B or less, Caster would probably have been fine.
Which is an interpretation I like.
Caster said:
"Magic resistance…! No, I don't know a knight that can defend against my magic…!"
Certainly, the VN seems to agree with it, as Caster appears to be saying that no knight should have enough MR to nullify her attack. (The UBW anime just has her saying "Magic resistance? Souichirou-sama!" :rolleyes: )

I'd actually argue that since the Grail had marked Shirou as a Master and wanted him to summon Saber, in fact since Shirou and Saber meeting is a destined event IIRC that must happen, there might have actually been some behind-the-scenes stacking of the deck. Whether by the Holy Grail, the Counter Force nudging people into place (it can do subtle IIRC), or what have you, it's not impossible something looked at the wording of Lancer's command and it ended up being interpreted such that Shirou got just enough free passes to make sure he summoned Saber.
That ... isn't how Command Seals work, I thought. In order for this interpretation to be correct, rather than improving (or binding) the Servant, the Command Seal would have to actually affect reality. The Command Seal wouldn't increase Shirou's ability to react to or withstand blows, for example, and rather than Lancer missing just enough to not kill Shirou, he wouldn't be able to make the attack at all without significant willpower on his part (and he only MR: C, IIRC). And you still would have the issue that it's Lancer's second time facing Shirou so he shouldn't have been affected by it anyway.
 
Well, it's deviating a bit from the point, which was "What's Ciel's combat ability", right?

So lets see what she has:
-Unkillable by conventional means, allowing her to take lethal blows and keep going without care.

-Exorcist combat training, which allows for physical competency comparable to using Servant/Vampire stat ranks instead of normal human. This basically just amounts to "she can meaningfully participate in Servant/Vampire-level combat instead of watching the colorful blurs zoom around and explode", do not expect her to successfully engage strength-to-strength against all but the weakest of them. Heavily reinforced mages like Rin, or skills like the Shikis can do comparable things.

-Church Sacrements, which allows for exorcists to have access to a variety of spells which are super effective on evil spirits and the undead. Also includes a lot of what I like to call Bullshit Cancelers, mostly based on enabling fighting with intangible, super sneaky, super perceptive opponents.

-Heavy Dakka, which are not standard issue as they are not replaceable, but which she can be expected to bring once she knows the enemy well enough.

So basically Ciel vs a Servant would be like Kotomine vs True Assassin: Extended fight to assess enemy capabilities. Fail to die. Trap them, hit them with a type advantage move/exploit their weaknesses. Succeed or die.

And in Ciel's case, once she gets killed she'd be back next time with a more effective weapon and knowledge of their capabilities/weaknesses. This may or may not be enough, while exorcists are badass, they generally encounter Dead Apostle or Servant level opponents only once in a lifetime. Even if you win you're going to be wrecked enough that you're heading for retirement.
 
-Unkillable by conventional means, allowing her to take lethal blows and keep going without care.

For this battle against Flan, I thinks this is her plan. Engage Flan, learn what she can, then comeback with the big gun.

-Exorcist combat training, which allows for physical competency comparable to using Servant/Vampire stat ranks instead of normal human. This basically just amounts to "she can meaningfully participate in Servant/Vampire-level combat instead of watching the colorful blurs zoom around and explode", do not expect her to successfully engage strength-to-strength against all but the weakest of them. Heavily reinforced mages like Rin, or skills like the Shikis can do comparable things.

A question veekie, in your opinion if she got a mystic code that enhance her strength along with her reinforcement spell she does on her body, do you thinks she could overpower a servant in physical strength?

-Church Sacrements, which allows for exorcists to have access to a variety of spells which are super effective on evil spirits and the undead. Also includes a lot of what I like to call Bullshit Cancelers, mostly based on enabling fighting with intangible, super sneaky, super perceptive opponents.

I thinks we will be seeing some Church Sacrements on this fight. If Flan fighting from the sky, no doubt Ciel is going to set her black keys with homing spell on them.
 
So if we don't want anything from her/those behind her, let's just kill her quickly to avoid her learning too much.
She might even stay dead, depending on what has happened with her.

Do we want to show any more of the 'cards' in our hand or do we want to keep them hidden?
Both imply certain strategies and deny others.
 
That ... isn't how Command Seals work, I thought. In order for this interpretation to be correct, rather than improving (or binding) the Servant, the Command Seal would have to actually affect reality.

Command Seals are able to produce miracles, IIRC. Or an effect so close as to make no difference. Granted, that's usually a instant command, but the potential is there.

The Command Seal wouldn't increase Shirou's ability to react to or withstand blows, for example, and rather than Lancer missing just enough to not kill Shirou, he wouldn't be able to make the attack at all without significant willpower on his part (and he only MR: C, IIRC).

Nothing saying the prohibition has to act like Archer's Command Seal to not hurt Shirou or disobey Rin.

And you still would have the issue that it's Lancer's second time facing Shirou so he shouldn't have been affected by it anyway.

The Command Seal was to have Lancer fight each Servant once and retreat, right? He can only do that if Shirou, Saber's destined Master and summoner, survives to summon Saber. Ergo, factors collude to ensure this comes to pass. Maybe the Holy Grail nudging Lancer via the fine print of the Command Seal, maybe something else, like the Counter Force, going, "Okay this needs to go here so I'm gonna nudge this girl to be here and then this guy to miss here..."
 
The Command Seal was to have Lancer fight each Servant once and retreat, right? He can only do that if Shirou, Saber's destined Master and summoner, survives to summon Saber. Ergo, factors collude to ensure this comes to pass. Maybe the Holy Grail nudging Lancer via the fine print of the Command Seal, maybe something else, like the Counter Force, going, "Okay this needs to go here so I'm gonna nudge this girl to be here and then this guy to miss here..."
At which point I bring up the cases where Command Seals don't succeed (Kayneth, Waver, Kirei, Kiritsugu, I believe Caster, Ilyasviel) and ask if Command Seals have ever been known to operate in the manner you're positing. Command Seals amplify or hinder the Servant in an undertaking, but they don't set the object of the Command to 'True' and twist reality to accommodate it.


Votes are not locked.
[X] Fight her.
- [X] Four in kind. Let clones fight her while you go invisible and observe her. Study her style, weaknesses and strengths.
- - [X] Should she win against the clones, use the acquired knowledge and beat her into unconsciousness. Take all her possessions sans underwear from her.
- - - [X] Get some answers from her once she recovers. Proceed from there ...
1

[X] Kill her.
-[X] Go back to the temple.
1

[X] Play with her.
- [X] Danmaku.
4

[X] Play with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Keep trying to talk as you do.
1

[X] Fight her.
- [X] Keep trying to talk.
1

[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she escalates in response or does anything suspicious.
3

[X] Beat her senseless.
- [X] Take her back to the temple. Maybe Deis can use her body?
3
 
At which point I bring up the cases where Command Seals don't succeed (Kayneth, Waver, Kirei, Kiritsugu, I believe Caster, Ilyasviel) and ask if Command Seals have ever been known to operate in the manner you're positing. Command Seals amplify or hinder the Servant in an undertaking, but they don't set the object of the Command to 'True' and twist reality to accommodate it.

There is one exception to that. If a Command Seal is used to beckon a servant, they defy all time and space to appear immediately as they're called.

There might be other exceptions as well, but I can't think of any right now.
 
Changing my vote to the following:

[X] Fight her.
- [X] Four in kind. Let clones fight her while you go invisible and observe her. Study her style, weaknesses and strengths.
- - [X] Should she win against the clones, use the acquired knowledge and beat her into unconsciousness. Take all her possessions sans underwear from her.
- - - [X] Get some answers from her once she recovers. Proceed from there ...
 
[X] Fight her.
- [X] Four in kind. Let clones fight her while you go invisible and observe her. Study her style, weaknesses and strengths.
- - [X] Should she win against the clones, use the acquired knowledge and beat her into unconsciousness. Take all her possessions sans underwear from her.
- - - [X] Get some answers from her once she recovers. Proceed from there ...
 
Well, it's deviating a bit from the point, which was "What's Ciel's combat ability", right?

So lets see what she has:
-Unkillable by conventional means, allowing her to take lethal blows and keep going without care.

May i repeat that this is NOT the case if this progresses from Tsukihimes true ending? I tell you this only in case you dont want her killed off permanently.
 
At which point I bring up the cases where Command Seals don't succeed (Kayneth, Waver, Kirei, Kiritsugu, I believe Caster, Ilyasviel) and ask if Command Seals have ever been known to operate in the manner you're positing. Command Seals amplify or hinder the Servant in an undertaking, but they don't set the object of the Command to 'True' and twist reality to accommodate it.

Yes? But in this case, since al that needs to happen is throw Lancer off his game just enough for Shirou to ultimately summon Saber, it still applies here.
 
Votes are still not locked.
[X] Fight her.
- [X] Four in kind. Let clones fight her while you go invisible and observe her. Study her style, weaknesses and strengths.
- - [X] Should she win against the clones, use the acquired knowledge and beat her into unconsciousness. Take all her possessions sans underwear from her.
- - - [X] Get some answers from her once she recovers. Proceed from there ...
3

[X] Kill her.
-[X] Go back to the temple.
1

[X] Play with her.
- [X] Danmaku.
3

[X] Play with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Keep trying to talk as you do.
1

[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she escalates in response or does anything suspicious.
3

[X] Beat her senseless.
- [X] Take her back to the temple. Maybe Deis can use her body?
3
Two things of note:
1) Yes, I'm over half an hour early making this, but I'm tired and I'm going to go to sleep after this post.
2) Yes, that is a four-way tie.

I'm not sure how long voting will remain open. At least another hour and a half, probably less than a day. But :shrug: I really don't know.
 
[X] Fight her.
- [X] Four in kind. Let clones fight her while you go invisible and observe her. Study her style, weaknesses and strengths.
- - [X] Should she win against the clones, use the acquired knowledge and beat her into unconsciousness. Take all her possessions sans underwear from her.
- - - [X] Get some answers from her once she recovers. Proceed from there ...
 
Which one should we consolidate into?

Ideally the one with the additional failsafe in case things get dicey. That is, this one:

[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she escalates in response or does anything suspicious.

@Redshirt Army, @Cataquack, @asdx, you guys up for consolidating?
 
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Okay, changing my vote once more:

[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she escalates in response or does anything suspicious.
 
I'll change my vote to:

[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she escalates in response or does anything suspicious.
 
Votes are locked.
[X] Fight her.
- [X] Four in kind. Let clones fight her while you go invisible and observe her. Study her style, weaknesses and strengths.
- - [X] Should she win against the clones, use the acquired knowledge and beat her into unconsciousness. Take all her
possessions sans underwear from her.
- - - [X] Get some answers from her once she recovers. Proceed from there ...
3

[X] Kill her.
-[X] Go back to the temple.
2

[X] Play with her.
- [X] Danmaku.
2

[X] Play with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Keep trying to talk as you do.
1

[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she
escalates in response or does anything suspicious.
5

[X] Beat her senseless.
- [X] Take her back to the temple. Maybe Deis can use her body?
3
Post should be up sometime in the next couple hours.
 
Are You Not Entertained? I
[X] Play around with her.
-[X] Danmaku.
--[X] Though...just because you're playing with her doesn't mean she'll see it the same way. Be on your guard in case she
escalates in response or does anything suspicious.


She skips back as you leap into the air, and you slip to the side contemptuously as she hurls her swords at you. Even as they pass by you she's holding two more, but a line of red bullets stretches toward her. She throws herself to the side and you send the line after her, your grin widening as she throws her swords in an attempt at disrupting your aim. You simply fly a little higher and increase the volume of the danmaku - instead of a single stream of bullets, you send out a torrent of bullets to saturate a cone targeted at the woman. She dashes away from the danmaku, and you laugh and clap your hands as you keep aiming at her. Even though you're using regular danmaku instead of lethal bullets, you're shooting a lot of bullets, and the roof is getting pitted and scarred already. If she wants to stay up here, she'll need to find another roof soon! "Come on, come on! Don't be boring, didn't you come here for me?" You increase your elevation once again, then change the way you're shooting the bullets. Instead of a flood from a single source, four sources of bullets fire individual streams at the woman, but at different angles, and you start herding her back toward you.

She doesn't cooperate, however - it doesn't take her long to notice what you're doing, and she dashes back through a line of bullets to escape. You giggle as she darts toward the street, your bullets chasing after her. What does she plan to do? She reaches the corner of the roof and leaps, pushing off the edge and hurtling forward more than up, across the street. You applaud as a stream of swords tries to catch you - she's throwing them in mid-leap, and so many! The first four are thrown in sequence and try to hit you directly, but you slip away and down, and then they start coming in bursts of three, trying to bracket you. She throws fifteen swords at you before landing on a rooftop far down the street, on the same side as you. You clap loudly and stop firing as she rushes toward you. Then, when she's twenty meters away, you put your hands behind your back and start firing again, grinning wickedly. Instead of the brightly-glowing red bullets of before, you use more difficult blue arrow-style bullets, and fire them in somewhat-random canister blasts. She barely manages to leap over your first attack and is caught by the second in mid-leap. Despite the arrest of her movement, her attack is almost spot-on, and one of the trio of swords she hurls carries your hat away. You scowl and launch several sets almost simultaneously, flooding the area between you and her with dimly-glowing bullets as you spin to follow your hat. You yank the sword out of the wall and pat your hat back on your head; Loki repairs the damage within moments and you grin. As you turn back to the woman, however, you study the sword - it's long and thin, longer than Laevateinn, but what catches your eye is the small hilt, identical to the bladeless ones Kirei was holding. Interesting; you put the sword away as crashing glass alerts you to the woman's next move.

Instead of moving against you, she seems to have retreated into one of the buildings. You laugh and fly toward it, but stay on your side of the street. She kept trying to close with you and engage in melee, and despite your superiority in that field you don't plan on letting her succeed. Instead, you drop to ground level and create a single bullet, a large green one. A lethal bullet, for its greater effect. You hurl it through the store's window and into a supporting wall. The glass shatters and the bullet bursts against the wall, penetrating and exploding. You frown; if you could use something like Remilia's Servant Flier it wouldn't be a problem, but if you try to take down the building with danmaku by yourself you run the risk of the woman taking you by surprise. You could use your clones, but that's a trump card you'd rather keep hidden for now. Hmm … you can't enter the building and find her that way, using standard danmaku risks being surprised, and even lethal danmaku just isn't efficient. Your other methods of destroying buildings risk killing her - will almost certainly kill her …. Another crash startles you and you start to leap back, but stop when you realize it's just her cassock, and the distraction is enough that she's able to hit you with one of her swords. You slam into the building behind you, although the blade fails to penetrate Loki, and an instant of rage overwhelms your caution. You hurtle toward the blade's launch point, but manage to regain control of yourself as you pass through the window. You bring yourself to a halt and then throw yourself back and up so you're over the street and away from whatever trap the woman set.

Your retreat nearly backfires - the woman had gone up after throwing her sword, either to escape from you or to try and sneak in after you, and only the apparent fact that she wasn't expecting you to come back out so quickly kept her from attacking you as you tore through the air past her. You come to a halt and stare down at her, studying her new appearance. Instead of the cassock, she's wearing a short blue one-piece dress, and its sleeveless nature shows off the many tattoos on her arms and shoulders. The most distinctive change is the huge weapon she's holding - a massive rifle-like weapon with a thick bayonet, about as tall as she is. Considering how overbuilt it is and how easily she holds it, it almost seems like she'd be more comfortable in melee than at range.


What do you do?

[ ] Keep with the plan; stay at range and fling danmaku at her.

[ ] Charge into melee and beat her senseless!
- [ ] Use Laevateinn and see how sturdy her weapon is.

[ ] Stop playing around and just kill her.

[ ] Other?
 
[X] Stop playing around and just kill her.

We are doing exactly what every other over powered bad guy in the Nasuverse does, were playing with our prey. And I think we all know how that ends so lets stop before it's to late.
 
[X] Stop playing around and just kill her.

She just bring out the Seven Holy Scripture, I think we should drop the play and end the fight as soon as possible.
 
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