Flandre's Quest (Touhou) World - (Madness Quest)
- Thread starter Entropy Judge
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HymnOfRagnarok
Let's Rock
If by conditional you mean, "A normal person is given a magic weapon, and the Servant comes into battle so crippled they are incapable of escaping or defending themselves or willing accept a lethal attack," then yes.
Shirou ain't a normal human. For that matter mages aren't normal humans. One of the things that sets Heroic Spirits apart is the fact that they are so beyond 'normal' humanity that they become legend and ascend to the Throne of Heroes. In their area of expertise, they really are completely beyond humanity.
And Servants are straight up immune to anything that isn't magical in some way. That's explicit in the story.
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She is not a batman expy as such the likely hood that she has prepared for someone who has so far used close combat, to instead switch to realistically high end range combat while fling in mid air. So the likely hood that she has any such counter measures on her now is laughable, also she is most certainly prepared for Flan close combating her so if you are correct then close combating her will end badly, thus by your real reasoning the option to play it fun and safe is better then to play it hard and safe.
I don't know much about Ciel however I do know that their are only 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors at a time, if she has fought many of them and beat them then she would be far more dangerous then simply 'can fight defensively against average servants'
Slith10
Back from the dead and ready to party!
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Agreed.
The only thing is, if we jump to 'yay, bullets' there isn't likely going to be any possibility of conversation until we kill her permanently.
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Their is zero chance at chatting until she can no longer fight, the safest option is to wear her down to the point to were shell be willing to small talk in order to buy time. which Damaka is best at and is the least likely option of Flan accidentally breaking her to death.
Not what I had in mind but one possible scenario. It really depending on what the victory conditional through. When I wrote that normal human could defeats a servant in battle, I writing it more along the lines Soujuurou Shizuki defeating Lugh Beowulf in combat. While Soujuurou Shizuki did not kill Lugh Beowulf, he did succeeded in taking out Lugh Beowulf in his battle against him. Lugh Beowulf was not injured in any physical way but was still defeated due to suffering a metal attack he definitely could not recover from for a while thus taking him out of the picture. If the winning conditions is to kil Lugh Beowulf, then Soujuurou Shizuki had fail. If the winning conditions was to defeat Lugh Beowulf, then Soujuurou Shizuki had succeeded. He had won.
No argument there. I however want to be clear about what I mean about normal human. It is using a human body to taking on a servant in battle without becoming something like a total fantasy.
Dead Apostle Ancestors is more like an acknowledge tittle of the most strongest and dangerous class of Vampire in the Nasu Verse. And this ranking is not based on power but rather how dangerous the vampire is to humanity. It had been confirm before there are being that are similar or equal in power, abilities etc to the Dead Apostle Ancestors. One clear sample, Lugh Beowulf. That guy is definite equal power and abilities to one of the Dead Apostle Ancestors. That why I said Dead Apostle Ancestors class opponent. I had no doubt Ciel had fought many similar level of being before and thus could handle Flan.
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No doubt that she had vast quantities of data and info on said opponents as such fighting Ciel in a way that is against all information gathered on us would be best to ensure we don't get caught in a prearranged trap, so once again fighting her from afar would be better.
Written wrongily earlier. I written as no agreement there. It is wrong. The one I want write was No argument there. Had fix it.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
I do have to say that I really don't like that particular quote. I mean, an "Average" Servant? Servants are Heroic Spirits, right? What the hell is an average Servant or an average Noble Phantasm? Someone like Zero!Lancer? I mean, he's not a demigod like Gilgamesh, Iskander, Cu, Heracles, etc. He fought Saber without being driven away, even managed to cripple her and could have killed her. How about Emiya or Caster's Assassin? Sure, Archer has his bullshit NP, but if you look at his statline pretty much any Servant should wipe the floor with him; instead, he manages to come out apparently unscathed against Assassin, Mr. "So good he drove off a Servant who was literally invulnerable to his attacks." If "Average Servant with an Average Noble Phantasm" can't actually be meaningfully quantified, it doesn't really mean anything.
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To be perfectly honest Saber is a crappy servant, strongest class my foot. So going by average well it be Saber but she isn't an average servant due to her back story.... she hasn't even reached the throne yet and wont until she gets the holy grail. Honestly Nusavrse has less rules and
anyway.
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Darkgenerallord
Makes shitty respect threads
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While this is mostly semantics,
Heroic Spirit /=/ Servant.
A Heroic Spirit is their full form on the Throne of Heroes, basically a tier below Divine Spirits.
A Servant is a fraction of them shoved/copied into a Class Vessel, they're much weaker in comparison.
I know of no instances off hand of Ciel fighting or defeating a DAA level opponent, save Roa. Usually she kills Roa before he incarnates. The one time I know she fought a DAA, she got brutally beaten.
DAA class level of opponent are never easy to defeat. I suspect most of the time Ciel always lost the first time, then able to win the second time due to being more prepare. Information, tactics, abilities etc...
Slith10
Back from the dead and ready to party!
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So this is your Head-canon version of Ciel, who is absolutely wonderful and Batman, Yes?
But this has never happened. The only instances we've seen of Ciel fighting a DAA has her getting thoroughly ruined, even with her immortality and anti-vampire equipment.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
And yet she consistently does well - she beats Rider at his own game, she stands off Herakles despite being handicapped (and when fully powered can possibly kill him), and when she actually has her proper equipment is ridiculously tanky. If she's a crappy Servant, then being able to fight defensively against an "average" one is a huge achievement.
But it cycles back into "what is an Average Servant capable of," because without knowing that the information isn't particularly useful. It's something that, on the face of it, ought to be easy to figure out, but actually doing it seems impossible.
Hm? Ciel was Roa's 17th incarnation, SHIKI was his 18th. Ciel was born in 1976, Roa woke up when she was ... 16, I believe ...
Hold a moment.
...
SHIKI is 17+ at the time of the main game, because he's at least as old as Shiki. Ciel died in 1992 or so, so that's when SHIKI had to have been born. Which means that Tsukihime has to take place in 2009 if what we're told about how Roa reincarnates is correct. (Unless I screwed up the math or an assumption, which is always possible.)
...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Ciel hadn't encountered Roa prior to Tsukihime, at least not after her first death. Arcueid is usually the one who kills him, but the Church usually doesn't seem to realize where he is until he's subverted an entire town. And Roa hadn't been killed 'prior to incarnating' at any point - that would mean killing his soul between hosts, which would ... well, kill him.
No. She not batman. Ciel just had access to resource that make her a batman. Without those resource, CIel is very unlikely to be able to match and defeats any DAA class level opponent unless conditions are correct. Ciel is no batman. If any normal human had access to the same resource that Ciel had, they are likely able to match DAA class level opponent if they are wise and smart enough to used those resource properly. There more than one way of fighting and more than one way to win.
Oh, I do believe you are correct. I think i mixed up Arcueid and Ciels actions.
Mixup aside, We've seen her fight a named DAA once, and it was a gruesome defeat.
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She has really good stats and yet Assassin has better skills then her despite his shitty stats, Archer kill Hercules 6 times without going into UBW's, And rider powered by shini is so weak that she got wrecked by a school teacher, Saber does not do better then people that she should clearly outclass thus she is a crappy servant.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
I suspect this is hyberbole or else the Church would have a better track record against them and there wouldn't be so many.
Unless the entire Church is morons, I guess.
That's kind of his deal, though.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Saber's stats are kind of meh under Shirou, actually, they're Bs and Cs. That's pretty much average right there.
Assassin has an A+ in Agility and a C in Strength; his Endurance is crap, yes, and so is his Mana, but he doesn't really need the Mana for anything so that doesn't really matter. What's funny about Assassin's stats is that, discounting their Noble Phantasms, Assassin's total is higher than Emiya's stats.
So does this mean that:
1) Herakles is a poor Servant;
2) Archer is a great Servant;
3) Comparing Servants is entirely arbitrary and thus an 'Average Servant' is impossible to determine.
I was referring to Zero Rider there, actually.
By this logic, I think Assassin and Archer are the only Servants who comes out of Fate/Stay Night looking like they didn't take a dive into a septic tank:
* Berserker, as you pointed out, got his ass handed to him by Archer.
* Lancer couldn't kill a schoolboy despite given twenty meters with no interruptions in which to work. Shirou manages to deflect an attack after Lancer decides to just kill him and blocks a "fatal, inescapable blow" after being launched twenty meters.
* Rider only does well in Heaven's Feel, particularly the endgame where she helps fight against Saber Alter, but it doesn't really make up for the other two routes.
* Caster isn't nearly as clever as she thinks she is (who gets surprised by a Knight class having Magic Resistance?) and really only does as well as she does because of Assassin, her nearly unlimited mana supply, and time to work.
* Gilgamesh loses to Shirou and to Saber, he's obviously a crappy Servant.
* Well, I suppose you could add Assassin to the list, because he loses to Saber and Gilgamesh.
* True Assassin can't beat Kirei, gets wrecked by every Servant he fights.
Archer, by the low standards of F/SN and its terrible Servants, at least "does better than you'd expect him to."
powerlevels pls stop
[X] Beat her senseless.
- [X] Take her back to the temple. Maybe Deis can use her body?
Flan doesn't know that. You know what they say about gifts, it's the thought that counts.
[X] Beat her senseless.
- [X] Take her back to the temple. Maybe Deis can use her body?
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Was she really surpirse or did she just want to ensure that saber would rush headlong into a trap?
Lancer was under a command seal to not kill any of the masters or servants, Shirou was going to become a master, thus Lancer would fail to kill him.
Berserk still won that fight though,
I think you got some words wrong here
true.
Personally I always thought of servant and the over all grail wars as having checks and balances so that the beginning teams all have a chance at winning.
I mean all Assassin would have to do is kill Gilgamesh's master while he was out at the big servant meeting's for the fourth war.
HymnOfRagnarok
Let's Rock
Unless that problem has been solved; in which case, top-tier body, probably nothing better in the world for Deis. Crazy high capacity for magic, fit, even has blue hair to start with!
...Better make sure Caster doesn't try to steal Ciel, actually.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Given how seriously Caster takes Souichirou's safety and how he wasn't connected to the Grail War, I think it's safe to say that she was surprised. She was also not expecting Souichirou to handle Saber the way he did. (And then she throws it all away by being unable to stab a nearly-helpless Servant.)
1) The Command was applicable only for the first fight, and he'd already killed Shirou once;
2) Shirou wasn't a Master at the time, therefore Lancer would not be bound by the Command;
3) No one knew that Shirou would become a Master.
"Won." Berserker got his ass kicked, no two ways about it; the fact that he survived and his enemy didn't doesn't change that fact. (He then goes on to lose to Saber and Shirou, for another helping.)
No, I don't think I did. If you want to claim that Gilgamesh losing is due to "plot" then the same holds true for every other Servant - they lost not because they're poor Servants, but because they went up against "plot." Gilgamesh loses because of his hubris - he doesn't believe that anything can stand against Ea (something he is pretty much right in), and he toys with someone who isn't remotely on his level because Shirou isn't remotely on his level.I think you got some words wrong here
Hm? Kirei and Tokiomi were still allied at that point, and Tokiomi wasn't at the Banquet of the Three Kings anyway. If you meant Waver (Rider's Master), that was kind of the point - either the horde of Assassins manages to kill him, or Rider is forced to reveal his Noble Phantasm:
Kirei even burned a Command Seal on it.Fate/Zero said: