Firebird, a Worm AU/Xover?

[pheonix89]

Yes, but you'll note that the reason the Protectorate is freaking out is that it's not just an anti-precog effect, but an anti Thinker effect. All the Thinker powers shut down, including the non-precogs, globally.

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Ok, how the fuck does that work. There are a TON of people with minor secondary thinker powers - Flechette's perfect aim and timing for instance. Also? Thinker includes super-senses and extra senses. Unless its attacking shards directly it shouldn't shut down TT or Number Man when they are doing other things.

In addition, the power classification system is an entirely artificial thing. The only power classification that actually exists in reality as opposed to terminology is Tinker vs non-tinker, and even that is dubious seeing as Dragon may well be a thinker. Tinkers get alien databases and very subtle Shaker/Striker/Thinker effects to get around the tools to make the tools problem partly, everyone else has powers directly. ANY effect that specifically shuts down powers of just one category is non-nonsensical.

 

[earthboy]

Yes, but you'll note that the reason the Protectorate is freaking out is that it's not just an anti-precog effect, but an anti Thinker effect. All the Thinker powers shut down, including the non-precogs, globally.

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... which is no small part of why it's weird, and why it makes no sense. "Thinker" is a human-invented tactical priority category, and not a fundamental trait of powers.

Also, asserting that a power with Thinker aspects would have only the Thinker aspects shutdown is nonsense. An example: canon!Skitter has a Thinker rating due to her enhanced perception as a necessary side-effect of her Master power. How do you shut down just the Thinker rating without affecting her Master rating? I think you can't.

 

[chibipoe]

I should point out at this stage that all we know is precognitive and thinker powers were disrupted. The meeting did not go into in-depth detail so we don't know if it was straight thinker powers and not other powers with a Thinker subset. Precognitives were the ones most affected but those who have only Thinker powers as their ONLY ability experienced a disruption. The latter is small enough that it wasn't really a huge concern, but still significant enough that it warranted mention. Those powers are also adapting somewhat, but really, it's a cosmic entity that makes the worm entities seem as ants. Completely out of context for them and we don't know what sort of effects its energies have on a dimensional level. It could decide that someone's shard will start causing a frog to appear and do a dance routine with a top hat and cane whenever they use their powers and that wouldn't be outside its capabilities.

 

[Sasha]

Ok, how the fuck does that work. There are a TON of people with minor secondary thinker powers - Flechette's perfect aim and timing for instance. Also? Thinker includes super-senses and extra senses. Unless its attacking shards directly it shouldn't shut down TT or Number Man when they are doing other things.

In addition, the power classification system is an entirely artificial thing. The only power classification that actually exists in reality as opposed to terminology is Tinker vs non-tinker, and even that is dubious seeing as Dragon may well be a thinker. Tinkers get alien databases and very subtle Shaker/Striker/Thinker effects to get around the tools to make the tools problem partly, everyone else has powers directly. ANY effect that specifically shuts down powers of just one category is non-nonsensical.

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Note the highlighted text and I think you'll find that you have answered your own question. If not, I'll try to elaborate based on my understanding of cannon and the events in Firebird.

1. Secondary thinker powers - Secondary powers are powers that prevent ones own power from hurting oneself. They act only on the user. The most prominent example of this is Skitter's multitasking, which allows her to process the actions of all the bugs in her radius without having an aneurysm.

2. Extra/Super senses - This is directly tied to the highlighted text I mentioned. Powers such as these receive this rating because of the way they function, not because they are cognitive abilities. Things such as super hearing/sight/smell or super intelligence (i.e. Alexandria) fall into this category. More esoteric sensory powers, such as danger sense, Flechette's perfect timing, or Cherish's emotional sensing, rely on precognitive/telepathic/empathic abilities, which is the reason they are unacceptable to being fucked over by a psychic monstrosity such as the Phoenix Force. The Number Man/Harbinger, interestingly enough, would not fall prey to this disruption, as his abilities don't see the future, nor do they read minds/emotions, they just calculate everything.

3. Precognition and and other thinker abilities - These are primary powers, usually one of, if not the, main manifestation of a shard in its host. These include Dinah's numbers, Contessa's Path to Victory, Accord's crazy-ass planning, Tattletale's ability to pick facts out of practically nowhere (though I suppose that one is debatable, as you could liken it to an observational ability taken to the extreme, sort of like Alexandria), Coil's split timelines/simulation-based precognition, and other I can't think of right now. These all fail for the same reason I mentioned above in (2).

Of course, this is all just my understanding of the situation, so feel free to believe what you want about it until @chibipoe gives us a definitive explanation.

 

[Amberion]

As per canon WoG, all 'precog' powers in Worm operate by computer modeling. It's just really really GOOD computer modeling via clarkean alien tech.

 

[pheonix89]

I should point out at this stage that all we know is precognitive and thinker powers were disrupted. The meeting did not go into in-depth detail so we don't know if it was straight thinker powers and not other powers with a Thinker subset. Precognitives were the ones most affected but those who have only Thinker powers as their ONLY ability experienced a disruption. The latter is small enough that it wasn't really a huge concern, but still significant enough that it warranted mention. Those powers are also adapting somewhat, but really, it's a cosmic entity that makes the worm entities seem as ants. Completely out of context for them and we don't know what sort of effects its energies have on a dimensional level. It could decide that someone's shard will start causing a frog to appear and do a dance routine with a top hat and cane whenever they use their powers and that wouldn't be outside its capabilities.

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But WHY is the Phoenix force choosing to fuck with that set of powers? Blue-screening precogs makes sense, but bluescreening Number Man and TT requires it to attack those shards, because those two just have stupidly power analysis systems plugged into their heads. The Phoenix force showing up shouldn't inherently fuck with Number Man's ability to do crazy math bullshit.

As per canon WoG, all 'precog' powers in Worm operate by computer modeling. It's just really really GOOD computer modeling via clarkean alien tech.

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Never quite bought that. The entities are absolutely capable of true, causality breaking precognition. Why? Because they have time travel, and precog is simply grabbing information from the future. I've read that WoG as saying that precog is too expensive to be useful, so they want to improve the cheaper simulation functions so they are more accurate.

 

[Sasha]

As per canon WoG, all 'precog' powers in Worm operate by computer modeling. It's just really really GOOD computer modeling via clarkean alien tech.

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Can I get a citation for that? It's not that I think you're wrong, I just want to confirm it and I never read through all of the comments sections of Worm so I don't know what Wildbow may have said.

 

[Amberion]

Can I get a citation for that? It's not that I think you're wrong, I just want to confirm it and I never read through all of the comments sections of Worm so I don't know what Wildbow may have said.

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I'm looking. I'll update when I find it. It's been a while since I read that particular quote.

 

[Sasha]

The Phoenix force showing up shouldn't inherently fuck with Number Man's ability to do crazy math bullshit.

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To be fair, we don't yet know that it will. I mean, Number Man hasn't even show up yet.

EDIT: Of course, his calculations could still be messed with by a cosmic-level entity of nigh-infinite power showing up out of nowhere!

 

[earthboy]

I should point out at this stage that all we know is precognitive and thinker powers were disrupted. The meeting did not go into in-depth detail so we don't know if it was straight thinker powers and not other powers with a Thinker subset. Precognitives were the ones most affected but those who have only Thinker powers as their ONLY ability experienced a disruption. The latter is small enough that it wasn't really a huge concern, but still significant enough that it warranted mention. Those powers are also adapting somewhat, but really, it's a cosmic entity that makes the worm entities seem as ants. Completely out of context for them and we don't know what sort of effects its energies have on a dimensional level. It could decide that someone's shard will start causing a frog to appear and do a dance routine with a top hat and cane whenever they use their powers and that wouldn't be outside its capabilities.

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Okay, that's funny, and you're entertaining, but having the Phoenix force accidentally make such an arbitrary decision ("All Thinker powers, unless the person has other better powers, so like fuck Lisa Wilburn but Rebecca Costa-Brown can keep her very similar power because she can fly, too.") ... and having the arbitrary decision being made on purpose implies more agency than I'd expect from the Phoenix force at the moment.

Note the highlighted text and I think you'll find that you have answered your own question. If not, I'll try to elaborate based on my understanding of cannon and the events in Firebird.

1. Secondary thinker powers - Secondary powers are powers that prevent ones own power from hurting oneself. They act only on the user. The most prominent example of this is Skitter's multitasking, which allows her to process the actions of all the bugs in her radius without having an aneurysm.

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That's just plain wrong. Alexandria's secondary Thinker powers don't fit your formulation at all, and they "act only on the user" to the exact same extent that Lisa's only power does, because Alexandria has an inferior version of Lisa's power.

Miss Militia's secondary Thinker power (perfect memory) is not required to protect her from anything that her power can do.

You are just plain wrong.

2. Extra/Super senses - This is directly tied to the highlighted text I mentioned. Powers such as these receive this rating because of the way they function, not because they are cognitive abilities. Things such as super hearing/sight/smell or super intelligence (i.e. Alexandria) fall into this category. More esoteric sensory powers, such as danger sense, Flechette's perfect timing, or Cherish's emotional sensing, rely on precognitive/telepathic/empathic abilities, which is the reason they are unacceptable to being fucked over by a psychic monstrosity such as the Phoenix Force. The Number Man/Harbinger, interestingly enough, would not fall prey to this disruption, as his abilities don't see the future, nor do they read minds/emotions, they just calculate everything.

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We are never told how Flechette's perfect aim / timing power works, so you're just making stuff up here.

She might work in the same manner as the Number Man.

More importantly, in Worm, precog is nothing more than the results of a detailed simulation... which is nothing more than a calculation. You seem to think that calculations are okay, but precog is not.

3. Precognition and and other thinker abilities - These are primary powers, usually one of, if not the, main manifestation of a shard in its host. These include Dinah's numbers, Contessa's Path to Victory, Accord's crazy-ass planning, Tattletale's ability to pick facts out of practically nowhere (though I suppose that one is debatable, as you could liken it to an observational ability taken to the extreme, sort of like Alexandria), Coil's split timelines/simulation-based precognition, and other I can't think of right now. These all fail for the same reason I mentioned above in (2).

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Now you're contradicting what you previously made up about Flechette's power, so uh... yeah, maybe try to get your story straight.

Tattletale is not precog in Worm, since she's easy to blind-side, and that's canonically how she gets roped into serving Coil. Her lack of fore-knowledge is how she's snared. She always knows a lot about what's in front of her, but nothing special about the future.

 

[Amberion]

So, Wildbow is a bit famous for non-answers.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/12864119/

Mrs. Yamada, Parian and Flechette are Asian-American, by the by, and they don't tend to get a lot of complaints about how stereotypical they are.

As a sort of follow-up to Golden Lark's question, how does precog actually work in Worm? Is it some sort of advanced modelling/extrapolation, a way of looking at the future directly, something else entirely, or are a variety of different methods at work depending on the person/shard in question? Or am I just completely off-base with all of this?

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Yes.

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So yeah, it can be whatever you want it to be I guess.

 

[Nianque]

I think it's less that Thinkers were effected and more that everything changed when the Phoenix showed up and caused all of the shards that dealt with precognition/perception/similar (ie: any power that that tells you stuff) ended up blue-screening because the Phoenix decided it felt like changing reality because why not?

 

[chibipoe]

But WHY is the Phoenix force choosing to fuck with that set of powers? Blue-screening precogs makes sense, but bluescreening Number Man and TT requires it to attack those shards, because those two just have stupidly power analysis systems plugged into their heads. The Phoenix force showing up shouldn't inherently fuck with Number Man's ability to do crazy math bullshit.

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They have those, yes, but it isn't -their- brains doing that. They're receiving input from an outside source. And the Phoenix choosing? It probably isn't even aware it's doing it. It's still more or less asleep. It made contact with Taylor and the influx as it did so prompted Taylor to do the 'I am the flame of life, etc etc' and the projection of the Phoenix from a mind that had just become its host. Taylor's throwing off flares as she gets closer to Real Power that are causing white noise, basically. And it isn't even happening often. Once in January for an extended amount of time(if you call 10ish minutes extended) and then once briefly when she drew more directly on the Phoenix during her tantrum.

TL;DR, it isn't the Phoenix doing it, it's Taylor using the Phoenix's power that is causing distortions on a scale she isn't even aware of. You've got Overwhelming Cosmic Power in your stomach and it's the source of all your powers... but there's no manual or anyone to really teach you... Well, there's the memories of the previous host floating around in your subconscious... but the freshest, most recent of those... well, she kind of went on an insane power trip, so maybe those aren't the best guide.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

TL;DR, it isn't the Phoenix doing it, it's Taylor using the Phoenix's power that is causing distortions on a scale she isn't even aware of. You've got Overwhelming Cosmic Power in your stomach and it's the source of all your powers... but there's no manual or anyone to really teach you... Well, there's the memories of the previous host floating around in your subconscious... but the freshest, most recent of those... well, she kind of went on an insane power trip, so maybe those aren't the best guide.

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No, something like that is the best guide. Because it tells you what not to do and what to do to make yourself a better overlord.

 

[chibipoe]

I think it's less that Thinkers were effected and more that everything changed when the Phoenix showed up and caused all of the shards that dealt with precognition/perception/similar (ie: any power that that tells you stuff) ended up blue-screening because the Phoenix decided it felt like changing reality because why not?

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Everything changed when the Fire Nation attack- oh wait.

No, really, it's a cosmic firebird that predates the universe and will exist when everything is gone. It does pretty much what it wants.

For a more technical answer that will hopefully lay this to rest(hah!)

The Phoenix barreled in to this corner of the multiverse through a series of pathways that had been set up by some other agency(it didn't pay much attention to the source, because whatever it was wasn't actively observing them). Due to how it came in, flares of its real power are creating white noise along those connections. The ones that are getting the brunt of them are all clusters of similar powers, what the PRT calls Thinker abilities.(just straight Thinker powers, not powers that get that as a subset.) Scion planted shards in various worlds/clusters of reality and they are grouped in a theme. 'These twenty-seven here are Thinker, these forty two here are Tinker, etc). Those all have channels to Earth Bet via their attached hosts(the 'pathways' the Phoenix traveled along to get here before it took a step to the right and dropped out in EB into Taylor.

 

[Sasha]

@jerkface Let me start by saying that, if my analysis of the situation in someway pissed you off, I'm sorry as that was not my intention. As for the rest of your post, allow me to respond in order:

That's just plain wrong. Alexandria's secondary Thinker powers don't fit your formulation at all, and they "act only on the user" to the exact same extent that Lisa's only power does, because Alexandria has an inferior version of Lisa's power.

You are just plain wrong.

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I believe I misspoke. I only said "secondary" because it was the terminology of the poster I was responding to. In context, what I meant was "required secondary powers." Alexandria's accelerated cognitive processing does not fall under this category, as it more closely resembles one of the enhanced senses mentioned in the next section of my post (note: I mean super hearing, etc., NOT supernatural senses).

(1)We are never told how Flechette's perfect aim / timing power works, so you're just making stuff up here.

(2)She might work in the same manner as the Number Man.

(3)More importantly, in Worm, precog is nothing more than the results of a detailed simulation... which is nothing more than a calculation. (4)You seem to think that calculations are okay, but precog is not.

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1. You are right, I made an assumption and that ability could function on any number of other principles.
2. I know, I said that in the parenthetical.
3. That is only speculation, as you'll note from the quote @Amberion found above.
4. That's because precognition involved time travel and/or causality manipulation, whereas probabilities are more uncertain, but do not require such esoteric abilities.

Now you're contradicting what you previously made up about Flechette's power, so uh... yeah, maybe try to get your story straight.

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Not sure what you mean by that, because I her power doesn't fall under the third part of my post, nor did I imply it did (even if my analysis of her power based on speculation, which I acknowledged above). The second part of that sentence just seems needlessly inflammatory.

 

[Nicholai]

Everything changed when the Fire Nation attack- oh wait.

No, really, it's a cosmic firebird that predates the universe and will exist when everything is gone. It does pretty much what it wants.

For a more technical answer that will hopefully lay this to rest(hah!)

The Phoenix barreled in to this corner of the multiverse through a series of pathways that had been set up by some other agency(it didn't pay much attention to the source, because whatever it was wasn't actively observing them). Due to how it came in, flares of its real power are creating white noise along those connections. The ones that are getting the brunt of them are all clusters of similar powers, what the PRT calls Thinker abilities.(just straight Thinker powers, not powers that get that as a subset.) Scion planted shards in various worlds/clusters of reality and they are grouped in a theme. 'These twenty-seven here are Thinker, these forty two here are Tinker, etc). Those all have channels to Earth Bet via their attached hosts(the 'pathways' the Phoenix traveled along to get here before it took a step to the right and dropped out in EB into Taylor.

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So Phoenix is generating interference in their "cell phone network." Interesting.

I assumed it was because Phoenix was changing things in an unanticipated way. Thus it was less "blue screen of death" and more "now I have to recalculate everything.. [censored!]" (The basis being that the Phoenix Force is an Out of Context Problem for the Shards, so they can't accurately model Taylor's actions / options / choices.)

 

[earthboy]

For a more technical answer that will hopefully lay this to rest(hah!)

The Phoenix barreled in to this corner of the multiverse through a series of pathways that had been set up by some other agency(it didn't pay much attention to the source, because whatever it was wasn't actively observing them). Due to how it came in, flares of its real power are creating white noise along those connections. The ones that are getting the brunt of them are all clusters of similar powers, what the PRT calls Thinker abilities.(just straight Thinker powers, not powers that get that as a subset.) Scion planted shards in various worlds/clusters of reality and they are grouped in a theme. 'These twenty-seven here are Thinker, these forty two here are Tinker, etc). Those all have channels to Earth Bet via their attached hosts(the 'pathways' the Phoenix traveled along to get here before it took a step to the right and dropped out in EB into Taylor.

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If you tell me that the Phoenix is deliberately fucking with THESE arbitrary people for whatever reason, then that's well within the capabilities of the Phoenix, and I'll buy it.

If you tell me that the Phoenix is accidentally fucking with some aspect of the space-time continuum, and that has a knock-on effect which jams THIS fundamental thing which affects THESE powers, then I'll buy it.

But it seems like you're telling me that the Phoenix accidentally affects an arbitrary list of people, whose only common trait is a shared threat priority category... that's stretching credulity. It's like an EMP which only kills Sony products. (Panasonic would love to invent this but it's not a credible threat to Sony shareholders.)

@jerkface Let me start by saying that, if my analysis of the situation in someway pissed you off, I'm sorry as that was not my intention.

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Nobody is angry with you for being wrong.

 

[chibipoe]

So Phoenix is generating interference in their "cell phone network." Interesting.

I assumed it was because Phoenix was changing things in an unanticipated way. Thus it was less "blue screen of death" and more "now I have to recalculate everything.. [censored!]" (The basis being that the Phoenix Force is an Out of Context Problem for the Shards, so they can't accurately model Taylor's actions / options / choices.)

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Some powers will handle this better than others and it may be that they'll adapt to deal with the interference. TT's certainly seems to be figuring out something, even if it isn't anything particularly concrete as of yet.

 

[chibipoe]

If you tell me that the Phoenix is accidentally fucking with some aspect of the space-time continuum, and that has a knock-on effect which jams THIS fundamental thing which affects THESE powers, then I'll buy it.

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That's pretty much a much more concise version of what I was saying.

 

[MadGreenSon]

Honestly, my reading of that scene(if we're thinking of the same scene) was that the fact that he could do anything was more due to who was wielding that power. Warlock outright stated that the shit he was pulling couldn't work against Thanos and Thanos was mocking her incompetence the whole time. She clearly had less than a solid grip on the absolute power that the IG grants.

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We are not thinking of the same scene. It was a contest of raw power vs raw power, Strange stalemated Adam Warlock long enough to reach behind his defenses and through Warlock's link to the Soul Gem to show him the consequences of his actions, which stopped him in his tracks. Thanos was nowhere around.

It took every trick Strange had, every unique talisman and called on all of his connections with the great arcane powers, but it was a genuine stalemate that lasted just long enough. It was after the original Infinity Gauntlet affair, when Warlock was going insane with the power. I think it was before he divested himself of his "good" and "evil" sides.

There is a reason Eternity has called Strange the mightiest being that any mortal is likely to ever meet.

As to the Surfer. I dunno. He's very low-end for cosmic tier, so I don't know if he'd actually be able to do anything more than annoy the Phoenix. He'd crap all over the entities though.

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The Surfer is the only Herald who might be able to hang in the big leagues. Galactus has outright stated that he made the Surfer more powerful and better than the other Heralds.

The problem with gauging his power is that in 99% of his appearances he's holding back, a lot.

 

[earthboy]

That's pretty much a much more concise version of what I was saying.

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Okay, so the Phoenix force has enough agency to select specific people for whatever arbitrary reason, or it's using Taylor's human mind -- perhaps via her subconscious -- and that's why it's affecting an arbitrary (human-constructed) set of power users, because Taylor thinks in those categories.

Either of those is plausible, and I don't particularly need to know which.

Thanks for clearing this up!

 

[Sasha]

Nobody is angry with you for being wrong.

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If you're going to ignore what I say in favor of being condescending and rude, I'm not gonna debate this any further with you. I've said all I have to say on the topic, in any case.

So, apart from all this discussion of the story and its mechanics, I thought I would share some fan art I've been working on.

I'm not nearly a good enough artist to do anything from scratch, so I've been using Hero Machine to lay the groundwork, and I'll add to it by hand. This is only a work in progress, but here are two versions of Rockshow/Catherine Minako :

Spoiler: Coat

Spoiler: Ninja

Is either of these close to what you were imagining? Taylor described her as both looking kind of like a ninja and with a coat that made her look like David Bowie from Labyrinth, so I've got two versions going right now.

With a name like "Rockshow," I imagine she's a tad more chaotic looking than what I have so far, so that's something I'm gonna add in by hand. I'm also trying to figure out how to get all of her colors (red, white, blue, and a little green) to look good together.

 

[chibipoe]

So, apart from all this discussion of the story and its mechanics, I thought I would share some fan art I've been working on.

I'm not nearly a good enough artist to do anything from scratch, so I've been using Hero Machine to lay the groundwork, and I'll add to it by hand. This is only a work in progress, but here are two versions of Rockshow/Catherine:

Spoiler: Ninja

Spoiler: Coat

Is either of these close to what you were imagining? Taylor described her as both looking kind of like a ninja and with a coat that made her look like David Bowie from Labyrinth, so I've got two versions going right now.

With a name like "Rockshow," I imagine she's a tad more chaotic looking than what I have so far, so that's something I'm gonna add in by hand. I'm also trying to figure out how to get all of her colors (red, white, blue, and a little green) to look good together.

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Omg, fanart.

The pics are broken though.

As to Rockshow. She went for a sort of japanese aesthetic. Try crossing a ninja with a J-Rock star. Taylor doesn't have familiarity with J-Rock, so she crossed it with the first thing she could think of... which was David Bowie being fabulous in Labyrinth.

 

[landcollector]

@Sasha
Your images are broken for me.