Firebird, a Worm AU/Xover?

You seem to forget the fact that legally there isn't any other option. Taylor's legal guardian signed the papers. She, Taylor, doesn't have full legal freedom as a minor. This happens a lot in showbiz with child actors. Taylor's choices are, "agree and join the Wards" or "get fucked." There isn't a middle ground here. Legally speaking Taylor has no say. Her wants don't matter.
Which, as has been discussed before, is a terribly stupid system in a world where minors can decimate army platoons with a well-timed fart. I'm actually surprised that there isn't a protocol for this. It couldn't have been the first time that a Ward had been signed up against his or her will and had the power to simply walk away.

Honestly, I'm kind of hoping we'll get a section where we're told what usually happens in a situation like this (as in, examples from other cities).
 
I just feel that you and others are assigning malice to Piggot and the PRT when there are easy explanations for their actions that require neither malice or incompetence. I think the issue is that people feel Taylor's desires should be in the forefront for the PRT. That's silly, the PRT's job isn't to make her happy, it's to make sure that parahuman crime is dealt with. Taylor is only important to them because her constant involvement in more and more parahuman incidents.

As Chibipoe gave the OK I'll answer your posts.

First the above. I admit, my opinion of Piggot is heavily influenced by the original story. Because of this it is easier for me to notice certain aspects of her behavior. However, I do not see her as incompetent. In fact, I greatly enjoy the fact that Chibipoe wrote her as both competent and intelligent. That is why I said:
Altogether this makes me see her as an intelligent, competent, dedicated, hateful and manipulative woman who will ignore the rules and a person's rights when she can get away with it and doing so will further her goal.

As to malice... I don't think we've been given enough information about this Piggot to make that call.

Now for your previous post.

Or no one has offered help and she's too proud to ask. Or she doesn't want to use her influence to get help anyone else wouldn't be able to have.

No. We know that in Firebird at least Armsmaster has offered to upgrade her dialysis machines multiple times.

Her features looked paler than yesterday and he made a note to see about implementing a new system for her that would help her health issues more. There were a few things he could do that would make it more efficient and reduce the strain such a system had on the body. Perhaps this time she would actually make use of one of his offerings.

"She rejected my latest submission for upgrades to the dialysis machines," he shrugged. "They would have improved things for her by quite a bit. At any rate, you're with me. So, you're a teenage girl on the outs with your father. Where do you go?"

That is why I believe that she dislikes (even hates) or distrusts parahumans enough that she would rather have her health suffer than accept their help.

Yeah, because there was some urgency to all of this.
My point there was that she had no authority over Taylor at that point. So she could ask or persuade, but she wasn't yet able to order.

This is a classic negotiation tactic. You make people wait to show them that you're the one in charge. It makes you seem like the authority in the situation.
Yes, either that or a ploy to get Taylor even tireder or both.

So you're mad that she considered all her options?
No, I consider this to very good writing. However, the fact that she considered it and discarded it not because she considered something like that wrong but because it might backfire if discovered does show us what kind of person she is.

Those were her only two options as far as the legal situation was concerned. If Danny put her in the Wards she was legally a Ward. If she felt that was unfair that's between her and Danny, not Piggot.
Not quite. She neglected to mention the fact that Danny could just not file the papers, that Taylor could become a Rogue, that Taylor could just wait until she's older... Basically, from what I read she spoke as if there were only two options, Ward or Probationary Ward. And that is what I based my opinion on.
 
You seem to forget the fact that legally there isn't any other option. Taylor's legal guardian signed the papers. She, Taylor, doesn't have full legal freedom as a minor. This happens a lot in showbiz with child actors. Taylor's choices are, "agree and join the Wards" or "get fucked." There isn't a middle ground here. Legally speaking Taylor has no say. Her wants don't matter.

That's what I'm saying, the other guy was saying that whole thing was a compromise, which is what I was disputing. Taylor choices are join the wards or get fucked. That's not a compromise. That is why its wrong and Danny and Piggot are arseholes, they went completely over Taylor's head and are not giving her a choice in the matter. Which technically is slavery. Taylor has no choice but to follow every command they give her, she, understandably, doesn't want to, so she has no choice but to run away. The fact that 'her wants don't matter' is precisely what I'm saying is wrong in the situation, and why Piggot and Danny are dicks.

I say that she has a lot of say in the matter.

Considering she is the one that can blow up people's heads with her mind.

But your right that legally that doesn't mean shit.

But laws tend to only matter if someone can actually force them. And Taylor? Well, they can't force Taylor to do shit. Which is why when they do try to force Taylor it's not going to end pretty.

Anyway, honestly there should be a legal clause that helps minors that are conscripted to join what amounts to a military unite against their will by their parents.

Because an unwilling employ would not help anyone, and Piggot probably realised that.

Agree.

s Chibipoe gave the OK I'll answer your posts.

First the above. I admit, my opinion of Piggot is heavily influenced by the original story. Because of this it is easier for me to notice certain aspects of her behavior. However, I do not see her as incompetent. In fact, I greatly enjoy the fact that Chibipoe wrote her as both competent and intelligent. That is why I said:
As to malice... I don't think we've been given enough information about this Piggot to make that call.

Now for your previous post.

No. We know that in Firebird at least Armsmaster has offered to upgrade her dialysis machines multiple times.

That is why I believe that she dislikes (even hates) or distrusts parahumans enough that she would rather have her health suffer than accept their help.

My point there was that she had no authority over Taylor at that point. So she could ask or persuade, but she wasn't yet able to order.

Yes, either that or a ploy to get Taylor even tireder or both.

No, I consider this to very good writing. However, the fact that she considered it and discarded it not because she considered something like that wrong but because it might backfire if discovered does show us what kind of person she is.

Not quite. She neglected to mention the fact that Danny could just not file the papers, that Taylor could become a Rogue, that Taylor could just wait until she's older... Basically, from what I read she spoke as if there were only two options, Ward or Probationary Ward. And that is what I based my opinion on.

Agree.


Piggot and Danny are trying to force Taylor into the Wards. Taylor doesn't want to. They are ignoring her, and forcing her against her will anyway.

I consider trying to force someone to do something against their will is wrong, Taylor is not breaking the law, Rogues and Independents are perfectly lawful, Taylor has every single fucking right to refuse the Wards. Danny and Piggot are taking that decision, that fundamental right to freedom of choice away from her, that is why they are C(insult).
 
I will interject here. The intent was that it was much later that day/night when Taylor arrived at the PRT HQ. If that wasn't clear in the text, that's my failing in not conveying it properly.

I thought that it was either very late at night or very early in the morning. After all, it was after school, after Catherine and Minako, after her first trip to the boat graveyard, after Victoria and Amy and after the disaster with her father. Which is a lot of afters.

I just believed that the time between Piggot giving the order and Taylor arriving at the PRT headquarters wasn't that long. 45 minutes, maybe an hour and a half tops, depending on where Armsmaster and Miss Militia started.
 
The chief thing some people are forgetting is that the PRT does not know they cant force the issue from a physical standpoint.

Shes a minor, ergo legally she doesn't get a choice in the matter, and legally once the paperwork was filed neither does the PRT. By law, they have to rein her in.

The fact that Piggot has been sitting on this and taking the softest possible approach says a lot about her character imho.

Shes not sending out brute squads trying to chain Taylor up and force her to do anything. Shes sending groups out to talk and offer aid and assistance, which is the least she has to do to comply, and even then she's probably pushing the limit of just how LITTLE she can do without being called to account.

Sure she want's to ultimately control Taylor, but that's because it's her job!

Also, I think some people are reading way too into Piggot's orders to armsmaster to go get Taylor 'right now' and they are thinking she was saying for Taylor to be delivered to her right that instant. It's an extremely common saying that when you want something done with urgency you say to get it done 'right now.'

And I also doubt she expected it to happen immediately either, hence why she was still on the machine when Taylor showed up.
 
Shes not sending out brute squads trying to chain Taylor up and force her to do anything. Shes sending groups out to talk and offer aid and assistance, which is the least she has to do to comply, and even then she's probably pushing the limit of just how LITTLE she can do without being called to account.

Sad thing is, doing that just irritated Taylor more. Because most of the people sent to talk to her treated it like a chore.
 
Again, she didn't offer anything of the sort, she basically said "We can do this the easy way or the hard way"

Easy way: Taylor agrees to become a normal Ward, with all the restrictions that comes with.

Hard Way: Taylor refuses, so they force her and she becomes a Probationary Ward (like Sophia), which is the same as a normal ward but with the added caveat of her being sent to juvie if doesn't follow their rules.

This is what Piggot told her, Taylor refused both which is what caused her to run away. If there was a deal like what you're suggesting Taylor wouldn't have run away


Yes I am, everything I'm using is from this fic'. Unless you somehow know my mind better than I do.

Actually, from what we're shown the affiliated cape contract Piggot had readied in advance just happened to have on her is a lot better than the Wards contract. However it does enable the PRT/Protectorate to call her to patrol with a Ward or Protectorate member or face either legal action or the cancellation of the agreement. (I assume the choice of whether to cancel or go legal is up to the PRT.) So Piggot would have been able to soft sell the Wards and if that didn't work control Taylor by having the Wards/Protectorate requesting her presence constantly. (Or push her enough to refuse and be able to take legal action.)

Both had sections on penalties, though the full membership was more comprehensive. It started with fines and penalties against any wage I would make and ranged all the way up to outright legal action if I was conducting myself in an unsuitable manner. Unsuitable appeared to cover a wide variety of things and my eyes were glazing over as I read through all the things that I wasn't allowed to do.

The forms to be an affiliated cape were more forgiving, but there were still whole sections that went on about what was and wasn't permissible. I let the papers fall to the bed and began nibbling on a french fry, letting myself absorb all that I had just read.

On one hand, I would stay independent. I would be able to be the Cape I wanted to be. I could move and act as I saw fit, provided I stayed on friendly terms. There were no real drawbacks, just some terms I had to play by and they would give me a respectful distance. The only caveat in all of it was that on occasion, they wanted me to patrol with a Ward and if they called me, I was required to assist them.

I bit my lip, thinking of how easily they could use that against me. Just having a Ward or Protectorate member asking for my assistance regularly and having to answer to retain my freedom of action as an Affiliate would suffice. If I refused, there was a section mentioning that or negligence could result in legal action against me or the nullification of the affiliate agreement. Somehow, I didn't expect that it was going to be that simple if it came to that.
 
Actually, from what we're shown the affiliated cape contract Piggot had readied in advance just happened to have on her is a lot better than the Wards contract. However it does enable the PRT/Protectorate to call her to patrol with a Ward or Protectorate member or face either legal action or the cancellation of the agreement. (I assume the choice of whether to cancel or go legal is up to the PRT.) So Piggot would have been able to soft sell the Wards and if that didn't work control Taylor by having the Wards/Protectorate requesting her presence constantly. (Or push her enough to refuse and be able to take legal action.)

I will interject again. Bear in mind that the interpretation that Taylor got out of the auxillary Ward documents is an extreme one. Not necessarily one that would be (though it could) implemented, but her mind is leaping to the worst case scenario. Biased narrator. :)
 
That's what I'm saying, the other guy was saying that whole thing was a compromise, which is what I was disputing. Taylor choices are join the wards or get fucked. That's not a compromise. That is why its wrong and Danny and Piggot are arseholes, they went completely over Taylor's head and are not giving her a choice in the matter. Which technically is slavery. Taylor has no choice but to follow every command they give her, she, understandably, doesn't want to, so she has no choice but to run away. The fact that 'her wants don't matter' is precisely what I'm saying is wrong in the situation, and why Piggot and Danny are dicks.



Agree.



Agree.


Piggot and Danny are trying to force Taylor into the Wards. Taylor doesn't want to. They are ignoring her, and forcing her against her will anyway.

I consider trying to force someone to do something against their will is wrong, Taylor is not breaking the law, Rogues and Independents are perfectly lawful, Taylor has every single fucking right to refuse the Wards. Danny and Piggot are taking that decision, that fundamental right to freedom of choice away from her, that is why they are C(insult).
You don't seem to understand that as a minor Taylor doesn't have the freedom of choice. Legally her choices are limited by what her legal guardian decides.
 
Actually, from what we're shown the affiliated cape contract Piggot had readied in advance just happened to have on her is a lot better than the Wards contract. However it does enable the PRT/Protectorate to call her to patrol with a Ward or Protectorate member or face either legal action or the cancellation of the agreement. (I assume the choice of whether to cancel or go legal is up to the PRT.) So Piggot would have been able to soft sell the Wards and if that didn't work control Taylor by having the Wards/Protectorate requesting her presence constantly. (Or push her enough to refuse and be able to take legal action.)

Exactly, that affiliate status was never the end goal. It's a contract designed to give the person the rope with which to hang themselves. People seem to be under the preconception that 'forcing' requires "Brute Squads" and "Join or Jail" tactics. It doesn't, forcing someone to do something is any method that has the goal of getting someone to comply to something that in their right mind they would not. That can be anything from Brute force to Manipulation to mind altering effects. The method's do not matter, Piggot's end goal is to take away a parahuman's agency and instead work towards the PRT/Protectorate's will.

After all, independents don't last long, they either join the PRT/Protectorate, a gang, jail, or die. So as affiliate's are independents that contract doesn't last long, it isn't designed to.

You don't seem to understand that as a minor Taylor doesn't have the freedom of choice. Legally her choices are limited by what her legal guardian decides.

Within reason. Otherwise there wouldn't such a thing as child protection laws. And I'd like to think a legal guardians power doesn't extend to forcing them to become a member of the Gov'ts Child Soldier Division.
Wards require Parental consent, as in the child wishes to join the Wards but requires parental permission to do so. Like piercing's under a certain age, with parental consent you can get them earlier, but the parent can't force you to get a peircing. Parent's have Veto, not total control.
 
Sad thing is, doing that just irritated Taylor more. Because most of the people sent to talk to her treated it like a chore.

While very true, it's the very least they had to do. They have to make 'attempts' to show they at least tried. It's not based only on appeasing Taylor, but appeasing their own legal department and watchdogs.

---
Legal - Under the law you had to bring her to a heel! Why didn't you bring her in?
Piggot - We tried. We sent teams out every day to make contact and approach her but she refused, constantly. She even broke some of their equipment!
Legal - A likely story...
---

Because of the filed paperwork there are things they have to at least 'try' and do. Yes they happen to aggrivate Taylor, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting on the news because you used brute force against a minor to bring them in when they didn't want too.
 
While very true, it's the very least they had to do. They have to make 'attempts' to show they at least tried. It's not based only on appeasing Taylor, but appeasing their own legal department and watchdogs.

---
Legal - Under the law you had to bring her to a heel! Why didn't you bring her in?
Piggot - We tried. We sent teams out every day to make contact and approach her but she refused, constantly. She even broke some of their equipment!
Legal - A likely story...
---

Because of the filed paperwork there are things they have to at least 'try' and do. Yes they happen to aggrivate Taylor, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting on the news because you used brute force against a minor to bring them in when they didn't want too.

-shrugs-

Personally I thought it as a stupid idea though. Constantly aggravating someone will just drive them away.
 
-shrugs-

Personally I thought it as a stupid idea though. Constantly aggravating someone will just drive them away.
A lot of law is stupid.

But in this case, they have no idea she can force her will should she want too. They are still operating under the asumption that she can be controlled/contained.

Things get murky when your minor can make your strongest option, the trimvirate, cry like little bitches. But they dont know that yet.

Yet.
 
The chief thing some people are forgetting is that the PRT does not know they cant force the issue from a physical standpoint.

Shes a minor, ergo legally she doesn't get a choice in the matter, and legally once the paperwork was filed neither does the PRT. By law, they have to rein her in.

The fact that Piggot has been sitting on this and taking the softest possible approach says a lot about her character imho.

Shes not sending out brute squads trying to chain Taylor up and force her to do anything. Shes sending groups out to talk and offer aid and assistance, which is the least she has to do to comply, and even then she's probably pushing the limit of just how LITTLE she can do without being called to account.

Sure she want's to ultimately control Taylor, but that's because it's her job!

Also, I think some people are reading way too into Piggot's orders to armsmaster to go get Taylor 'right now' and they are thinking she was saying for Taylor to be delivered to her right that instant. It's an extremely common saying that when you want something done with urgency you say to get it done 'right now.'

And I also doubt she expected it to happen immediately either, hence why she was still on the machine when Taylor showed up.

Quite true that legally Tailor doesn't have a choice and that after Danny put his signature on the contract the PRT had certain obligations. They also have an image to maintain, which is why Taylor's refusal to accept their authority couldn't be allowed to stand long term. (Or even short term if she became too visible.)

However from Piggot's thoughts in chapter 3.2 it seems to me that that she hasn't forcibly brought Taylor in mostly because doing so without Taylor providing an excuse would wreck the Brockton Bay Wards program. (Although I can be wrong about what Chibipoe intended there.)

The girl's continued refusal, her increasing capacity with her powers, or the fact that she couldn't curb the girl without causing potentially irreversible damage to the Wards program.

The option to forcibly rein in the girl was looking better all the time. But until the girl misstepped, she couldn't. Her hands were tied. A situation she was never fond of encountering.

As to the "right now" portion, that might be me being biased. However her saying "as soon as possible" was taken by Armsmaster and Miss Militia to mean just that when they received the order, and they presumably have experience with interpreting her orders.
 
Things get murky when your minor can make your strongest option, the trimvirate, cry like little bitches. But they dont know that...........yet.

But see if she joins the Wards that wont happen :p and Rule of Cool says THAT MUST HAPPEN! :p :D

Taylor: (*Inarticulate rage*) (*Outburst of pure POWER!!*)
Eidolon: "Waaaaa! I want my mommy!!"
Ziz/Simurgh: "There, there, Daddy, it'll all be alright, it'll be fi-........OH SHIT SHE'S A STRONGER VERSION OF ME! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!"
.....
Alexandria: "I never told you this Contessa.....but I love yo-
.....
Legend:"(*whimpers*)
.....
......
........
Jack Slash Zion:
"VENGENCE", "AGREEMENT".........."AWESOMENESS".
 
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So, Taylor isn't going to be joining the wards any time soon.

Just wandering, but what's the probability that everything escalates?
 
Translation: He was killed by a farmer with a gun. Who also happens to have a huge marijuana carrot patch.

I don't think I've mentioned them in-story yet, but... in this world, Jack met his end under mysterious circumstances a few years back. The bounty was claimed and the Nine's killer now is independently wealthy and spends her time writing a series of young adult novels under a pseudonym that have gained in popularity, but no one knows that they're actually her life story...

She also regularly has tea with a lady wearing a fedora once a week.
 
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It's not a great solution but it's probably the best option Piggot has in the circumstances.

Look at it this way, she has a couple options:

Drag Taylor In- Assuming this doesn't somehow go violent the Wards team is going to suffer terribly for it. Having someone on the team who doesn't want to be there without any way to pressure them to behave how you like is going to be downright TOXIC. Piggot has no reasonable way to get Taylor to do any of the 'duties' in this instance and her entire Wards team can be screwed over by simple passive resistance. Docking pay doesn't work because if that was important to Taylor she'd have signed on already. Console duty and community service assignments won't work because she can just not go to them which means now console duty when Sirin is supposed to be there now means two wards sitting back at base. None of the available discipline options will work here. Her only real option to put pressure on Taylor might be legal action against her father for breach of contract but then that runs into the wall of a.) she's super-pissed at him now, and b.) it puts this whole business into the public eye where there will be scads of lawyers smelling blood in the water and just waiting to help the poor girl exercise her civil rights (and in the meantime here's all these additional 'damages' we will be suing for). If it goes to public opinion it wouldn't take much for them to crucify the PRT over this.


Do Nothing- This is unworkable because if Taylor gets injured or killed while out heroing it's going to come down on the PRT's head. She was signed up legally for the Wards making it their responsibility to train and keep her safe in learning her powers. Any investigation will show that absolutely none of that was happening and then you have a PR nightmare once again that might damage the Wards program nation-wide. The same for if Taylor goes too far and kills someone or injures bystanders, or the like. That's going to bring up inquiries as to why exactly Piggot was ignoring the well-being of one of her charges.

Soft Sell- Do the minimum required to get Taylor to come in and work with the wards without antagonizing her so as to not further sour her on the program while at the same time having something she can point to in case of an inquiry to go 'See, I was trying to get her to come in with the measures I had available." This is basically the only option that lets Piggot cover herself and still try to get Taylor to willingly come in.


Basically it means that thanks to the quirks of our legal system we have achieved a state where every party involved is unhappy with how things have turned out.
 
As to the "right now" portion, that might be me being biased. However her saying "as soon as possible" was taken by Armsmaster and Miss Militia to mean just that when they received the order, and they presumably have experience with interpreting her orders.

I attribute it more to a common saying that she wanted them to immediately work towards that goal, rather than work it into their schedule sometime...

As evidenced by her being on the dialysis pump when Taylor showed up. She likely didn't know it was going to be so easy to convince her to come in for a chat.
 
It's not a great solution but it's probably the best option Piggot has in the circumstances.

Look at it this way, she has a couple options:

Drag Taylor In- Assuming this doesn't somehow go violent the Wards team is going to suffer terribly for it. Having someone on the team who doesn't want to be there without any way to pressure them to behave how you like is going to be downright TOXIC. Piggot has no reasonable way to get Taylor to do any of the 'duties' in this instance and her entire Wards team can be screwed over by simple passive resistance. Docking pay doesn't work because if that was important to Taylor she'd have signed on already. Console duty and community service assignments won't work because she can just not go to them which means now console duty when Sirin is supposed to be there now means two wards sitting back at base. None of the available discipline options will work here. Her only real option to put pressure on Taylor might be legal action against her father for breach of contract but then that runs into the wall of a.) she's super-pissed at him now, and b.) it puts this whole business into the public eye where there will be scads of lawyers smelling blood in the water and just waiting to help the poor girl exercise her civil rights (and in the meantime here's all these additional 'damages' we will be suing for). If it goes to public opinion it wouldn't take much for them to crucify the PRT over this.


Do Nothing- This is unworkable because if Taylor gets injured or killed while out heroing it's going to come down on the PRT's head. She was signed up legally for the Wards making it their responsibility to train and keep her safe in learning her powers. Any investigation will show that absolutely none of that was happening and then you have a PR nightmare once again that might damage the Wards program nation-wide. The same for if Taylor goes too far and kills someone or injures bystanders, or the like. That's going to bring up inquiries as to why exactly Piggot was ignoring the well-being of one of her charges.

Soft Sell- Do the minimum required to get Taylor to come in and work with the wards without antagonizing her so as to not further sour her on the program while at the same time having something she can point to in case of an inquiry to go 'See, I was trying to get her to come in with the measures I had available." This is basically the only option that lets Piggot cover herself and still try to get Taylor to willingly come in.


Basically it means that thanks to the quirks of our legal system we have achieved a state where every party involved is unhappy with how things have turned out.

I think that you are right and that Piggot is making a best of the shit storm that Danny created. Taylor could say no to the wards completely if Danny was not hell bent on signing her up and the PRT could focus on important things like the gangs. The thing is once Danny turns in the paper work Piggots choices in how to handle the situation go from many to one. So if you want to blame someone blame Danny because I bet Taylor and Piggot sure do.
 
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