Extrication, or: Tricking Fate

Also note that the only reason parties don't starve to death in the wilderness is because they almost always have a ranger that put at least a single point into Survival to bring it from untrained to trained where their wis modifier could do the rest.
...YMMV. Most of the parties I was a part of didn't starve without doing that, through the magical art of not journeying into the wilderness for very long. If we did...well, like I said, pretty much every character I made bought magic items that provided food. There are some low-level Cleric spells that can do the same, so Survival isn't always a necessity.
 
...YMMV. Most of the parties I was a part of didn't starve without doing that, through the magical art of not journeying into the wilderness for very long. If we did...well, like I said, pretty much every character I made bought magic items that provided food. There are some low-level Cleric spells that can do the same, so Survival isn't always a necessity.
True. A better phrasing may have beeen that parties aren't generally capable of cooking for themselves and have to depend on either the guy with the Survival skill, magic, or carrying Sufficient Rations.
 
...YMMV. Most of the parties I was a part of didn't starve without doing that, through the magical art of not journeying into the wilderness for very long. If we did...well, like I said, pretty much every character I made bought magic items that provided food. There are some low-level Cleric spells that can do the same, so Survival isn't always a necessity.
How many stories end in 'and then the evil witch starved'? On the other hand, 'damsel in distress' might be a trope we could aim for ... once we know more about echos.
 
And using divination for evil is also a trope. I'm not saying we shouldn't use our abilities, just to be aware about the possible reinterpretations.
There is a trope for using just about anything for evil. If we can't even do simple non-evil actions without worrying about the Echo making it evil then there is no point to doing anything, she should just give up and hope the Echo wants her to survive.
 
Fine. On the other hand, we have other ways of getting food. Make a skeletal body for some deceased hunter or poacher and have him hunt for us. Use divination to find water or alternatively berries and such. Given that water-finding is one of the most well known forms of divining, I can't see it not being an option. Some kinds of food are just fine raw, so even if we don't go the undead hunter route, we could still quite easily survive in the wilderness.
What kinds of food are safe to eat raw? Do we know? No we do not, because we know nothing of food prep.

Assuming we'll just be able to find a dead hunter, bring him back with all his knowledge intact, and have him do all the work for us is far too nebulous a hope for me. How many of those do you generally find laying around anyway? Besides, nothing says "I'm EVIL!" like having an undead minion butchering woodland critters for you.

While we could probably use our Divination to say "where is the nearest water source" or "which of these berries won't kill me", that is not its purpose and magic is generally not free. For all we know, the energy cost of casting those spells would cancel any calories we'd get from whatever food we could scrounge. Even if they don't, we're a woman who doesn't know how to make food for herself or even clean. Surviving off muddy creek water and roots for weeks on end isn't going to do nice things to our morale. By the end of that hell, we'd probably be more than ready to summon up the horde and kill every damn thing we see.

...YMMV. Most of the parties I was a part of didn't starve without doing that, through the magical art of not journeying into the wilderness for very long. If we did...well, like I said, pretty much every character I made bought magic items that provided food. There are some low-level Cleric spells that can do the same, so Survival isn't always a necessity.

It feels like stating the obvious, but...this isn't D&D. The magic system is different, the usual tricks do not apply.

Could we use our powers to fake survival skills in an emergency? Probably, but it sure as hell wouldn't be fun. Let's try to avoid it if all possible, either by getting and keeping friends who can do that crap for us or (my favorite) by not going off adventuring in the first place.

How many stories end in 'and then the evil witch starved'? On the other hand, 'damsel in distress' might be a trope we could aim for ... once we know more about echos.
They tend to go...

"And she wandered the forest for days and days, surviving on dirty roots and dew water, until she collapsed along the side of the road, the last of her strength gone. A kindly farmer found her, took her in, and his good heart melted her evil. They were married and lived happily ever after.

The End."


If you're a main character, being starving and alone always gets you found by something at the last second, but whether that 'something' is good or bad depends on your story. As an 'evil' character, we might get a visit from a demon who offers us a dark bargain or something to save our life.
 
magic is generally not free
We can raise a damned skeleton army and intentionally create intelligent magical items. I think you're getting a little bit too paranoid.

*sigh*

You know, I have no idea why this is even a topic of discussion. Why does it matter that Iris can't cook? If anything we should be happy about that because it means she's less likely to get chickified and waifu'd. She's exactly as capable of wilderness survival as any other high-level Wizard. Which is to say, she either makes it a point to carry infinite food with her in a Bag of Holding (Master Enchanter), goes all Contessa on it (Master Divination), or she's so powerful that she has a pet Ranger with maxed-out Survival just to make wilderness survival situations tolerable. She's probably a hell of a lot more capable of wilderness survival than the average fighter, barbarian, rogue, assassin, or monk.

There is a trope for using just about anything for evil. If we can't even do simple non-evil actions without worrying about the Echo making it evil then there is no point to doing anything, she should just give up and hope the Echo wants her to survive.
How about we go ask a bard?
 
True. A better phrasing may have beeen that parties aren't generally capable of cooking for themselves and have to depend on either the guy with the Survival skill, magic, or carrying Sufficient Rations.
Sounds about right. Or they're doing an urban campaign and food supply is not much of an issue.
What kinds of food are safe to eat raw? Do we know? No we do not, because we know nothing of food prep.
If divination cannot tell you 'don't eat these berries, they're poisonous', I'd say we wasted our skill points.
Assuming we'll just be able to find a dead hunter, bring him back with all his knowledge intact, and have him do all the work for us is far too nebulous a hope for me. How many of those do you generally find laying around anyway? Besides, nothing says "I'm EVIL!" like having an undead minion butchering woodland critters for you.
More common than princesses. Given our residential location, I'm guessing we have one floating around our house somewhere.
While we could probably use our Divination to say "where is the nearest water source" or "which of these berries won't kill me", that is not its purpose
...That is probably the main purpose the vast majority of it's users use it for. Consider for a moment how common water-divining was even as recently as the 1900's in our world.
...and magic is generally not free. For all we know, the energy cost of casting those spells would cancel any calories we'd get from whatever food we could scrounge.
If divining the location of a bard is easier than simple questions about nature, I will be very disappointed in how unbalanced and dumb Alivaril's magic system is. Basic, practical uses should be a HELL of a lot easier than seeing the future or searching miles of territory.
Even if they don't, we're a woman who doesn't know how to make food for herself or even clean. Surviving off muddy creek water and roots for weeks on end isn't going to do nice things to our morale. By the end of that hell, we'd probably be more than ready to summon up the horde and kill every damn thing we see.
...Did you include water when you asked Alivaril about making food via magic? Because, while organic compounds are highly complex, water very much is not. That would probably be much easier to create via Transmutation.
It feels like stating the obvious, but...this isn't D&D. The magic system is different, the usual tricks do not apply.
That was what is known as a tangent. Also known as a minor ADHD episode. I am easily distracted and, judging by the number of random tangents found in his other quest's discussions, so are a fair chunk of Alivaril's player-base.
Could we use our powers to fake survival skills in an emergency? Probably, but it sure as hell wouldn't be fun. Let's try to avoid it if all possible, either by getting and keeping friends who can do that crap for us or (my favorite) by not going off adventuring in the first place.
I like to keep my options open. Going adventuring is an option. You claimed it was not, and I disagreed. I never said it was the best option, but let's not close any line of thought preemptively. Needs must and all that.
We can raise a damned skeleton army and intentionally create intelligent magical items. I think you're getting a little bit too paranoid.

*sigh*

You know, I have no idea why this is even a topic of discussion. Why does it matter that Iris can't cook? If anything we should be happy about that because it means she's less likely to get chickified and waifu'd. She's exactly as capable of wilderness survival as any other high-level Wizard. Which is to say, she either makes it a point to carry infinite food with her in a Bag of Holding (Master Enchanter), goes all Contessa on it (Master Divination), or she's so powerful that she has a pet Ranger with maxed-out Survival just to make wilderness survival situations tolerable. She's probably a hell of a lot more capable of wilderness survival than the average fighter, barbarian, rogue, assassin, or monk.
This. Thanks for having my back, V. I appreciate it.
 
Last edited:
Because apparently any method she can use to actually find a bard, including the non-evil-supposed-to-be-used-to-find-things-like-people-who-can-help-you-magic, is in some way evil.
I don't think that it will be twisted. I think that it can be and that Iris needs to be carefully monitoring her state of mind to make sure it doesn't end badly. This is also why I'm voting to include the Ghost Princess and track down a journal or some other record we can use to check against; theoretically, changing extant items will be more difficult than changing how a person thinks, since there isn't a a simple route like "power corrupted her and she grew evil".
 
I like to keep my options open. Going adventuring is an option. You claimed it was not, and I disagreed. I never said it was the best option, but let's not close any line of thought preemptively. Needs must and all that.
...when? I said it was a bad idea, not that it was impossible. In fact, I explicitly said we could do it if we wanted to, I just wanted us to be smart about it. Behold:

In terms of skills, we are set up to be a ruler, not an adventurer. I think leaving our kingdom to become a hero would be a bad idea.

Before doing anything rash (like abandon our powerbase or summon an undead horde), we need to know more. We can always abandon ship later.

Heroing is a valid option provided we get some minions friends, but we're still optimized for rulership and not adventure.

---

We can raise a damned skeleton army and intentionally create intelligent magical items. I think you're getting a little bit too paranoid.

*sigh*

You know, I have no idea why this is even a topic of discussion. Why does it matter that Iris can't cook? If anything we should be happy about that because it means she's less likely to get chickified and waifu'd. She's exactly as capable of wilderness survival as any other high-level Wizard. Which is to say, she either makes it a point to carry infinite food with her in a Bag of Holding (Master Enchanter), goes all Contessa on it (Master Divination), or she's so powerful that she has a pet Ranger with maxed-out Survival just to make wilderness survival situations tolerable. She's probably a hell of a lot more capable of wilderness survival than the average fighter, barbarian, rogue, assassin, or monk.

How about we go ask a bard?

Sounds about right. Or they're doing an urban campaign and food supply is not much of an issue.

If divination cannot tell you 'don't eat these berries, they're poisonous', I'd say we wasted our skill points.

More common than princesses. Given our residential location, I'm guessing we have one floating around our house somewhere.

...That is probably the main purpose the vast majority of it's users use it for. Consider for a moment how common water-divining was even as recently as the 1900's in our world.

If divining the location of a bard is easier than simple questions about nature, I will be very disappointed in how unbalanced and dumb Alivaril's magic system is. Basic, practical uses should be a HELL of a lot easier than seeing the future or searching miles of territory.

...Did you include water when you asked Alivaril about making food via magic? Because, while organic compounds are highly complex, water very much is not. That would probably be much easier to create via Transmutation.

That was what is known as a tangent. Also known as a minor ADHD episode. I am easily distracted and, judging by the number of random tangents found in his other quest's discussions, so are a fair chunk of Alivaril's player-base.

I like to keep my options open. Going adventuring is an option. You claimed it was not, and I disagreed. I never said it was the best option, but let's not close any line of thought preemptively. Needs must and all that.

This. Thanks for having my back, V. I appreciate it.

I think both of you are coming at this from the wrong genre. We are in a storybook, not D&D or historical fantasy. Rangers and monks and fighters don't exist, real-world divining isn't a thing, and compound complexity doesn't matter when turning pumpkins into carriages. Should have figured that last one would come up when I mentioned calories though, so that's my bad.


I'll agree though that this topic needs to die. It's too soon to worry about anyway. Consider the subject closed.
 
What do you base this hypothesis on? We are finding dark artifacts in our treasure room - and get invitations from warlords.
It feels like there should be a component that considers how observable an action was. Invitations from warlords are a simple result of someone else considering us to be an Evil Sorceress and are easily within the Echo's power. The artifacts appearing don't seem to happen in front of Iris's eyes and can be explained away as Schrodinger's Artifact or a glitch in the matrix. Changing text that Iris hasn't just already seen but wrote with her own hands is well beyond that.
 
...when? I said it was a bad idea, not that it was impossible. In fact, I explicitly said we could do it if we wanted to, I just wanted us to be smart about it. Behold:
See: been skimming for several pages. Sorry for misinterpreting you.
I think both of you are coming at this from the wrong genre. We are in a storybook, not D&D or historical fantasy. Rangers and monks and fighters don't exist, real-world divining isn't a thing, and compound complexity doesn't matter when turning pumpkins into carriages. Should have figured that last one would come up when I mentioned calories though, so that's my bad.
Mate, Alivaril tends to make understandable magic systems, if only because 'lol it's magic don't need to explain' ones piss him off. And if practical, minor spells are out of reach, but less minor ones are not, that starts seriously trending into 'lol it's magic' territory. Sh*t, even the law of contagion and sympathetic magic are rules, and they can be used. Especially the law of contagion and sympathetic magic, the former of which is a common thing in alchemy and both are often found in divination.

And water, aside from being simple chemically, is also one of the four elements. Transmutation magic in stories is often linked with alchemy. Alchemy was based on the whole four elements thing. So making it should be relatively easy,
I'll agree though that this topic needs to die. It's too soon to worry about anyway. Consider the subject closed.
Fair enough, but I think getting a handle on precisely what rules our magic follows, particularly Transmutation and Divination, would be a good idea before we do much planning. Both of them have iffy rules compared to enchantment and necromancy.

If we're talking about stories, some of the oldest concepts in magic, fiction-wise, are sympathetic magic and the law of contagion. Forms of sympathetic magic are found as far back as Egypt. "The image becomes the reality": make a heiroglyph or statue too realistic, and it will come to life and kill you. Voodoo dolls are a more recent form of it. Using the image of something, or a link to something, to better affect it with magic. Law of contagion is similar, the piece is linked to the whole. So you could find something if you had a piece of it, or create some more of it. The two tend to intermix a lot.
 
Last edited:
Creating a replica of the diary that's more in tune with the echo - that too?
The details don't matter. Think narratively. The warlords aren't part of the story and can be written in without trouble. The artifacts are a little bit more tricky, but can still be easily revealed by drawing back the curtains on part of the story or setting with only a small "why didn't you notice these before". A journal or research notes, on the other hand, have already been written, and by the viewpoint character's hand, no less. The Ghost Princess's journal would be suspect, as would a newspaper from the townsfolk. Iris's journal isn't bulletproof, because it hasn't appeared on-screen yet, but it's still far more solid than the contents of a random drawer in her lab somewhere.
 
The details don't matter. Think narratively. The warlords aren't part of the story and can be written in without trouble. The artifacts are a little bit more tricky, but can still be easily revealed by drawing back the curtains on part of the story or setting with only a small "why didn't you notice these before". A journal or research notes, on the other hand, have already been written, and by the viewpoint character's hand, no less. The Ghost Princess's journal would be suspect, as would a newspaper from the townsfolk. Iris's journal isn't bulletproof, because it hasn't appeared on-screen yet, but it's still far more solid than the contents of a random drawer in her lab somewhere.
I think you may be right, simply for meta-reasons - if the QM would reform each and every thing of the main character there weren't a quest left.
 
...Did you include water when you asked Alivaril about making food via magic? Because, while organic compounds are highly complex, water very much is not. That would probably be much easier to create via Transmutation.

And water, aside from being simple chemically, is also one of the four elements. Transmutation magic in stories is often linked with alchemy. Alchemy was based on the whole four elements thing. So making it should be relatively easy,
You're probably right about water's simplicity making it one of the easiest things to transmute. It's just that that's not particularly useful, because transmutations aren't permanent by default, and you're screwed if you decide to go that way anyway with master-class transmuting and then get hit by a disjunction or something. *Evil Witch Vanishes In A Puff Of Smoke* type screwed, because more and more of our body will be made out of straight up magic.
 
[x] Wait, that's not right. Hauntings? Undead armies? "Necromancy" is an industrial technology and a way to help the vitally challenged, not a weapon.
[x] Express your doubts to the princess.
 
You're probably right about water's simplicity making it one of the easiest things to transmute. It's just that that's not particularly useful, because transmutations aren't permanent by default, and you're screwed if you decide to go that way anyway with master-class transmuting and then get hit by a disjunction or something. *Evil Witch Vanishes In A Puff Of Smoke* type screwed, because more and more of our body will be made out of straight up magic.
That's...rather bizarre, frankly. Very odd form of Transmutation if conversion spells are so easily reversed. More like just shaping magic into objects than turning one object into another. Transmutation magic is usually a process than can only be reversed by the application of more transmutation magic. And why would we just poof if we turned stone to water? Wouldn't the magic reversing just turn our blood to rock, along with any other liquid we had in us that we had gained from rock-water?

This magic system is really bizarre and breaks a ton of conventions found in fiction. Heck, transmutation making water from nothing would be defying the very definition of transmutation.
 
Last edited:
The transmutation system sounds like it was lifted from HPMoR: Transmutation is inherently temporary and physical rather than conceptual: you transmute gold molecules into water molecules with some duration, you drink the water, it's used for hydrolysis reactions and transport and stuff, the water molecules turn back into gold molecules inside cells and midway through chemical processes, all hell breaks loose as .5% or 1% of your cells die on the spot.
 
The transmutation system sounds like it was lifted from HPMoR: Transmutation is inherently temporary and physical rather than conceptual: you transmute gold molecules into water molecules with some duration, you drink the water, it's used for hydrolysis reactions and transport and stuff, the water molecules turn back into gold molecules inside cells and midway through chemical processes, all hell breaks loose as .5% or 1% of your cells die on the spot.
Hm. I suppose that makes sens-
*sudden realizaton*
...So, I'm an idiot. Goblets, flasks, and the like that never empty are pretty common in mythology and old stories, on the level of 'reoccuring type of object', anyway. Given our skill in Enchantment, I suspect endless clean water would not be completely out of reach.

Might want to start making objects that would help us if we ever have to flee our castle at some point. If we haven't already. Contingencies and all that. Amongst other things, endless water would help if we ever end up besieged.
 
I think we'd be better off making a goblet that like, summons water and purifies it rather than one that transmutes it?

Purification only removes, so it shouldn't be reversible in the same way.
 
That's...rather bizarre, frankly. Very odd form of Transmutation if conversion spells are so easily reversed.

But when the clock strikes twelve...



HPMOR had/has nothing to do with this.



Today was a bit stressful and busy IRL, I'll see if I can
get out an update tomorrow morning. Could I have a vote tally either then or now?


EDIT: For the record, you guys don't need to worry too much about food. Iris can bring boring, nutritious food along, play with its shape and taste, and go from there.
 
Last edited:
Vote Tally : Original - Fantasy - Extrication, or: Tricking Fate | Page 12 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4

[X] Appoint a regent to keep the place intact in your absence, then temporarily cut ties with your home.
-[X] Start searching for an appropriate area practically begging for a hero. While you can't fill that role right now, perhaps you could attach yourself to the party of one.
--[X] Just use divination to look for an appropriate hero instead of searching on foot or via ghostly scouts.
No. of Votes: 4

[X] Appoint a regent to keep the place intact in your absence, then temporarily cut ties with your home.
-[X] Start searching for an appropriate area practically begging for a hero. While you can't fill that role right now, perhaps you could attach yourself to the party of one.
No. of Votes: 3

[x] Wait, that's not right. Hauntings? Undead armies? "Necromancy" is an industrial technology and a way to help the vitally challenged, not a weapon.
[x] Express your doubts to the princess.
No. of Votes: 3

[x] Use Divination to:
- [x] Research those ruling near your own little domain
- [x] Look into the backgrounds of all the people who insulted you
-- [x] Taking particular note of their loved ones who are dead
- [x] Look for an appropriate area begging for a hero, and a suitable hero you can maybe attach yourself to
- [x] Look around for a nearby bard you can consult on Echos
[x] Share your findings with the princess and your ghostly advisers, get their thoughts on the strategic/political situation.
-- [x] Girl talk with the princess! What's her story?
No. of Votes: 3

[X] Research those ruling near your own little domain.
-[X] Using divination.
-[X] Take particular note of their loved ones who are dead.
No. of Votes: 2

[X] Look into the backgrounds of all the people who insulted you.
-[X] If any of them have deceased loved ones, turn them into ghosts and task them with annoying thier erring friend/lover/family member/etc.
--[X] Explain your predicament to them and ask for their help. The Echo might force them to forget, but perhaps you could remind them every time they come back?
--[X] Make sure their temporary forms are durable and difficult to exorcise. That would be a rather anticlimactic end which would leave you right back where you started.
[X] Research those ruling near your own little domain.
-[X] Ask for volunteers from the castle ghosts, then task any who step forward with being diplomats with the neighboring rulers.
No. of Votes: 1

[X] Look into the backgrounds of all the people who insulted you.
-[X] Use Divination, talk to their dead relatives, try every strategy possible
--[X] Surely some of them need replacing, find one of them a hero needs to deal with
---[X] Appoint a regent to deal with your lands
----[X] Go join a hero in dealing with them
-----[X] Use glamour to look like an old man
No. of Votes: 1

[x] Use Divination to find a bard that can advise you.
-[x] If possible, bring the Ghost Princess along as a character witness. You don't exactly trust your thoughts right now.
-[x] Also bring your journal, if you have one.
--[x] Review it first to make sure the Echo hasn't already rewritten your personal history.
No. of Votes: 1

[X] Research those ruling near your own little domain.
-[X] Using divination.
-[X] Take particular note of their loved ones who are dead.
-[X] Share your findings with the princess and your ghostly advisers, get their thoughts on the strategic/political situation.
--[X] Girl talk with the princess! What's her story?
No. of Votes: 1

Total No. of Voters: 19

Vote Tally : Original - Fantasy - Extrication, or: Tricking Fate | Page 12 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4

[X] Appoint a regent to keep the place intact in your absence, then temporarily cut ties with your home.
No. of Votes: 7

-[X] Start searching for an appropriate area practically begging for a hero. While you can't fill that role right now, perhaps you could attach yourself to the party of one.
No. of Votes: 7

[X] Research those ruling near your own little domain.
No. of Votes: 7

[X] Look into the backgrounds of all the people who insulted you.
No. of Votes: 5

--[X] Just use divination to look for an appropriate hero instead of searching on foot or via ghostly scouts.
No. of Votes: 4

-[X] Share your findings with the princess and your ghostly advisers, get their thoughts on the strategic/political situation.
No. of Votes: 4

--[X] Girl talk with the princess! What's her story?
No. of Votes: 4

[x] Wait, that's not right. Hauntings? Undead armies? "Necromancy" is an industrial technology and a way to help the vitally challenged, not a weapon.
No. of Votes: 3

[x] Express your doubts to the princess.
No. of Votes: 3

-[X] Using divination.
No. of Votes: 3

-[X] Take particular note of their loved ones who are dead.
No. of Votes: 3

[x] Use Divination to
No. of Votes: 3

- [x] Look for an appropriate area begging for a hero, and a suitable hero you can maybe attach yourself to
No. of Votes: 3

-- [x] Taking particular note of their loved ones who are dead
No. of Votes: 3

- [x] Look around for a nearby bard you can consult on Echos
No. of Votes: 3

-[X] If any of them have deceased loved ones, turn them into ghosts and task them with annoying thier erring friend/lover/family member/etc.
No. of Votes: 1

--[X] Explain your predicament to them and ask for their help. The Echo might force them to forget, but perhaps you could remind them every time they come back?
No. of Votes: 1

--[X] Make sure their temporary forms are durable and difficult to exorcise. That would be a rather anticlimactic end which would leave you right back where you started.
No. of Votes: 1

-[X] Ask for volunteers from the castle ghosts, then task any who step forward with being diplomats with the neighboring rulers.
No. of Votes: 1

-[X] Use Divination, talk to their dead relatives, try every strategy possible
No. of Votes: 1

--[X] Surely some of them need replacing, find one of them a hero needs to deal with
No. of Votes: 1

---[X] Appoint a regent to deal with your lands
No. of Votes: 1

----[X] Go join a hero in dealing with them
No. of Votes: 1

-----[X] Use glamour to look like an old man
No. of Votes: 1

[x] Use Divination to find a bard that can advise you.
No. of Votes: 1

-[x] If possible, bring the Ghost Princess along as a character witness. You don't exactly trust your thoughts right now.
No. of Votes: 1

-[x] Also bring your journal, if you have one.
No. of Votes: 1

--[x] Review it first to make sure the Echo hasn't already rewritten your personal history.
No. of Votes: 1

Total No. of Voters: 19
 
Back
Top