Remove ads

Extrication, or: Tricking Fate

Reader mode
[x] Use Divination to find a bard that can advise you.
-[x] If possible, bring the Ghost Princess along as a character witness. You don't exactly trust your thoughts right now.
-[x] Also bring your journal, if you have one.
--[x] Review it first to make sure the Echo hasn't already rewritten your personal history.

edit: I'm a little bit worried about using divination to find our adviser here. That's a slightly Evil-Sorceress act. We'll have to be extremely careful not to end up threatening him into helping us, which is another common evil sorceress trope.
Kai Merah said:
We will utterly suck as an adventurer
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Where do you get that idea? If anything, we're too powerful to be an adventurer. We've got enough Necromancy ready to go that one of our default options is to personally raise an army big enough to conquer a nearby kingdom. And we've got illusion/mind control and scrying at the same level, and transmutation and enchantment just a little bit lower. We are capable of mind-controlling our way past any social problem, Divining our way through any puzzle or maze, and simply rolling over any physical obstacle. If you're talking about our lack of cooking skill, why do you think adventurers gather at taverns all the time?
 
Last edited:
Vebyast said:
If you're talking about our lack of cooking skill, why do you think adventurers gather at taverns all the time?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To hear rumors about quests and meet with friends. They don't go there for the food. Well, not just the food, anyway.

Most adventures require weeks of travel through the countryside, cooking and preparing your own food. Think Lord of the Rings: 90% walking around, 10% fighting. Without the ability to gather and prepare food we would be utterly dependent on others to provide for us. Our power will likely ensure that someone will be willing to do so, but ultimately we would still be totally dependent on our companions. If they die or turn against us out in the wilderness, we'd be up the creek.

Heroing is a valid option provided we get some minions friends, but we're still optimized for rulership and not adventure.

Kai Merah said:
As several people have already said, we're specced to be a ruler. We will utterly suck as an adventurer, especially when we don't have a plan. As such, I'd like to stay in our castle and evaluate our options. I know it's unlikely we'll succeed in overcoming the Echo head on, but since we're staying in the castle, it can't hurt to try? And the rest of my vote is just all about getting all the info we can get our hands on. We need info to see what our neighbours and probable-enemies are like so we can see what alternative Echoes we can fit into, playing off them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I entirely agree, staying put as a ruler is my first choice. I would still prefer going adventuring over trying to out-muscle an echo though: it has too many resources to use against us. Think of it like martial arts: blocking strikes head-on is inefficient. It's far better to just redirect their motion and use it to your advantage. We just have to find an advantage we can exploit...which is where "evaluate our options" comes in, something I'm all for.

Because knowing is half the battle!


 
AramilOniasha said:
The possible evilness of the user does not make an action evil. Using a non-evil magic for a non-evil reason is still not an evil action.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actions require context; and the echo is going to paint our actions so it suits its narrative. That's where the possible danger lies. As somebody else wrote: we got our personal Murphy, and he's got an agenda.
 
MTB said:
Actions require context; and the echo is going to paint our actions so it suits its narrative. That's where the possible danger lies. As somebody else wrote: we got our personal Murphy, and he's got an agenda.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Context is still not going to make using a legitimate not evil school of magic for it's intended not evil purpose an evil action. If any action she takes is going to be evil regardless of what it is, then there is no point to trying to do anything because the Echo has already taken her over completely.
 
AramilOniasha said:
Context is still not going to make using a legitimate not evil school of magic for it's intended not evil purpose an evil action. If any action she takes is going to be evil regardless of what it is, then there is no point to trying to do anything because the Echo has already taken her over completely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not any action; only actions the echo can interprete in the context of its narrative.
And using magic looking for help can be interpreted in such a way - 'mirror mirror on the wall' is divination, for example. It would really help if we knew which narrative == echo tries to influence us.
 
Our kingdom is a bunch of huts here and there. Nothing particularly major. Which means that there is a pretty good chance of our advisor being:
A)Incompetent
B)Unwilling to come
C)Having his own evil agenda
D)All of the above.

I'd suggest going for finding the most lawful good/idealistic person, preferably a woman, from our kingdom and setting them up as our morality pet. Then we could try to restrain our evil though them, possibly even having them save us in the end, where we get blasted, allowing us to learn to be a better person rather than becoming dead.
 
"Mirror Mirror on the wall whose the wisest of them all?"

That sounds like the perfect person to ask for advice. Honestly if that queen had just asked Snow White for beauty care advice that whole thing could have been avoided.
 
MTB said:
Not any action; only actions the echo can interprete in the context of its narrative.
And using magic looking for help can be interpreted in such a way - 'mirror mirror on the wall' is divination, for example. It would really help if we knew which narrative == echo tries to influence us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Using the magic for its legitimate non-evil purpose cannot be taken as an evil action. The queen using the magic mirror to find the most beautiful person was not evil, it was divination as it was supposed to be used. What she did afterwards was evil, but the act of using the mirror was not evil.
 
AramilOniasha said:
Using the magic for its legitimate non-evil purpose cannot be taken as an evil action. The queen using the magic mirror to find the most beautiful person was not evil, it was divination as it was supposed to be used. What she did afterwards was evil, but the act of using the mirror was not evil.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Intent and perceived intent count too. Why are we looking for them? What does it look like we're looking for them for?

Those matter too.
 
AramilOniasha said:
Using the magic for its legitimate non-evil purpose cannot be taken as an evil action. The queen using the magic mirror to find the most beautiful person was not evil, it was divination as it was supposed to be used. What she did afterwards was evil, but the act of using the mirror was not evil.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Of course not; but in the logic of the story she used this magic to further her evil goals. That (or something similar) is what the echo will/may try to do with our action, too. That's why we need to be cautious how we proceed afterwards - to deny the echo the option of reinterpretation of our action.
 
DreamerGhost said:
Can we even ever use divination then?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We can use it we just have to remember that everything is a trope. We just have to remember the tropes before we act in order to resist their influence if we can't resist the influence even when we expect it and are prepared ahead of time we might as well give up now.
 
I think so; however we need to be aware about the ways the echo could intervene. That's one of the reasons I mentioned 'ask experts' - I'd like an IC explanation of how echos work and what goes and what not.
 
Vebyast said:
[x] Use Divination to find a bard that can advise you.
-[x] If possible, bring the Ghost Princess along as a character witness. You don't exactly trust your thoughts right now.
-[x] Also bring your journal, if you have one.
--[x] Review it first to make sure the Echo hasn't already rewritten your personal history.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I... don't think Echoes can do this.

edit: I'm a little bit worried about using divination to find our adviser here. That's a slightly Evil-Sorceress act. We'll have to be extremely careful not to end up threatening him into helping us, which is another common evil sorceress trope.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...I can't think of any examples off Evil Monarchs or Evil Magical Users doing this off the top of my head. Isn't it more common for a lack of competent advisors to be a bad sign?

Where do you get that idea? If anything, we're too powerful to be an adventurer. We've got enough Necromancy ready to go that one of our default options is to personally raise an army big enough to conquer a nearby kingdom. And we've got illusion/mind control and scrying at the same level, and transmutation and enchantment just a little bit lower. We are capable of mind-controlling our way past any social problem, Divining our way through any puzzle or maze, and simply rolling over any physical obstacle.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
While Iris is extremely powerful, her skills currently do not lend themselves to fending off goblin ambushes or to doing dungeon raids. Most of her skills take time to use; given enough time, Iris could probably figure out a way to use her illusions and transmutation skills to fit into the standard "wizard" slot of an Adventuring party. But it would be far from straightforward.

If you're talking about our lack of cooking skill, why do you think adventurers gather at taverns all the time?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's where they meet, but it's not where they spend most of their time. Adventurers need to be resourceful in hunting/gathering/cooking while traveling in the wild from place to place. Not everyone in a party needs those skills, but Iris would probably be miserable most of the time if she went on a standard Adventure.

MTB said:
Not any action; only actions the echo can interprete in the context of its narrative.
And using magic looking for help can be interpreted in such a way - 'mirror mirror on the wall' is divination, for example. It would really help if we knew which narrative == echo tries to influence us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There are buttloads of good/neutral examples of divination. The Oracle of Delphi, Odin, the Blind Seer, etc. If Iris is going to get into trouble, it will be because the Echoes consider her to be an "Evil Magical Queen" rather than because she's using Divination in particular. As long as we're not actively trying to avert a prophesy, or something similarly foolish, then there shouldn't be any particular danger in using Divination.
 
Last edited:
[x] Use Divination to:
- [x] Research those ruling near your own little domain
- [x] Look into the backgrounds of all the people who insulted you
-- [x] Taking particular note of their loved ones who are dead
- [x] Look for an appropriate area begging for a hero, and a suitable hero you can maybe attach yourself to
- [x] Look around for a nearby bard you can consult on Echos
[x] Share your findings with the princess and your ghostly advisers, get their thoughts on the strategic/political situation.
-- [x] Girl talk with the princess! What's her story?
 
boonerunner said:
There are buttloads of good/neutral examples of divination. The Oracle of Delphi, Odin, the Blind Seer, etc. If Iris is going to get into trouble, it will be because the Echoes consider her to be an "Evil Magical Queen" rather than because she's using Divination in particular. As long as we're not actively trying to avert a prophesy, or something similarly foolish, then there shouldn't be any particular danger in using Divination.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I took
Alivaril said:
Recently, it's become abundantly clear that a story is trying to force you into a role you don't particularly care for. You'd prefer to have a happy ending, thank you very much. It doesn't even have to be a "happily ever after," you'd just prefer to get out of the current problem with your skin intact.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Alivaril said:
So why do you keep feeling the overwhelming urge to break out into diabolical cackling, and why do you keep getting offers of marriage or alliance from warlords and rulers you've never even heard of? Finally, what is with all the dark artifacts which keep magically appearing in your treasury and workshops when you're positive they weren't there before?

...An Echo has taken an interest in your life, hasn't it? Well, this could get annoying.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

to mean that an echo is already trying to rewrite our life. In my understanding it may try to subvert any action we undertake - not just divination. And using divination for evil is also a trope. I'm not saying we shouldn't use our abilities, just to be aware about the possible reinterpretations.
 
boonerunner said:
That's where they meet, but it's not where they spend most of their time. Adventurers need to be resourceful in hunting/gathering/cooking while traveling in the wild from place to place. Not everyone in a party needs those skills, but Iris would probably be miserable most of the time if she went on a standard Adventure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
On the contrary, in 3.5 D&D (assuming your DM is as generous with splat book access as Alivaril was), you can spend under 1000 gp and never need to hunt or buy food and/or water, so long as you have an Everfill Mug and Everlasting Rations. I made acquiring those a priority after he trapped us in a maze via teleportation circle and we nearly starved to death while trying to find the exit. Made them an automatic purchase on every 3.5 character after that, too.

It seems to me that Transmutation might allow us to do something similar. Turn rocks into bread or something.
 
Last edited:
MTB said:
In my understanding it may try to subvert any action we undertake - not just divination. And using divination for evil is also a trope. I'm not saying we shouldn't use our abilities, just to be aware about the possible reinterpretations.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, if you look at our list of available magic, all the schools we got to pick from have Evil tropes associated with them. I'm pretty sure that was the point.

While I don't disagree that Divination falls squarely into the "Mirror Mirror" danger zone for Evil Queens, I'm not really seeing a lot of workable alternatives. Ghost spying is even riskier, and we can't exactly ask our neighbors politely if they'll please just tell us their history, secrets, political disposition, and the strength of their armies.

It's the lesser of all available Evils.

Nixeu said:
On the contrary, in 3.5 D&D (assuming your DM is as generous with splat book access as Alivaril was), you can spend under 1000 gp and never need to hunt or buy food and/or water, so long as you have an Everfill Mug and Everlasting Rations. I made acquiring those a priority after he trapped us in a maze via teleportation circle and we nearly starved to death while trying to find the exit. Made them an automatic purchase on every 3.5 character after that, too.

It seems to me that Transmutation might allow us to do something similar. Turn rocks into bread or something.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
MTB said:
Didn't he nix that by answering 'generally not a good idea'? Except perhaps for the highest level transmuter?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, I asked this already. @Alivaril said that while a master might be able to pull it off, it wasn't recommended.
 
MTB said:
Didn't he nix that by answering 'generally not a good idea'? Except perhaps for the highest level transmuter?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...I may have been skimming the thread for a while.
Kaelor said:
Yes, I asked this already. @Alivaril said that while a master might be able to pull it off, it wasn't recommended.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fine. On the other hand, we have other ways of getting food. Make a skeletal body for some deceased hunter or poacher and have him hunt for us. Use divination to find water or alternatively berries and such. Given that water-finding is one of the most well known forms of divining, I can't see it not being an option. Some kinds of food are just fine raw, so even if we don't go the undead hunter route, we could still quite easily survive in the wilderness.
 
Also note that the only reason parties don't starve to death in the wilderness is because they almost always have a ranger that put at least a single point into Survival to bring it from untrained to trained where their wis modifier could do the rest.

edit: For the rest of the debate: We can't get anywhere until we know more about Echoes. So, regardless of further plans, Step One is to find a bard. Even trying to find a bard is risky if the thing tries to twist it into us suppressing dissent or purging the intelligentsia, but it's less risky than trying to DIY our own Echo escape.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top