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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Dark Lord Bob said:
Was reading over the Abyssals section of the 3E Core, and something popped out at me: Abyssals leave victims alive (when they do) often because being left alive causes and allows them to experience further suffering. Could this be why Lily, in killing everyone who opposes her "side" (for want of a better word), is still a paragon of Compassion (or at least considers herself so)?
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She wouldn't have to kill them in such brutally gory ways in that case. Though maybe that's just the most 'painless' way she knows how.

Vitaris said:
The realm of possibility includes a looot of stuff in Creation. It's bigger than the actual Realm!
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Or maybe that's just what the Sidereals want you to think!
 
SirLagginton said:
I disagree with the notion that truly rules her out as a protector. She has not laid a finger on her allies for instance, and all evidence supports the claim that she treats them very well. I think you are being rather too hasty in judging her with what is at best second-hand information, after all would we have ever considered allying with Seeds if we weren't given an update going into his viewpoint in detail? I rather doubt that we would've hesitated to slaughter him without the benefit of that view point, given the descriptions we were given of the horrors inside his lair.
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Fair enough. By the opposite token, I think people are being too eager to invite the metaphorical wolf in for supper, and all the available evidence comes in the form of the accounts from people exposed to her Presence Charms, which is biased to the point of meaninglessness. The only accounts from non-mindraped people indicate she doesn't understand the concepts of 'mercy' and 'restraint', which does not speak well of her at all.
 
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Orm Embar said:
With a name like Empress Slay, I'd assumed she would be competing with the Lily for the honor of being the greatest murderhobo. Though that Freehold has stood for long enough that she probably can't be called a hobo of any sort, come to think of it.
The Raksha were the soul-stealing monsters in that particular statement, not the Lily. Her actions include mercilessly slaughtering our legions with a smile on her face, a far cry from the protector she purportedly claims to be. That dissonance and unpredictability is what makes me so leery of allying with her, and the fact that her Presence Charms convince anyone who spends any amount of time with her of the righteousness of her cause just makes me more determined not to let her get her foot in the door.

Might be worth nabbing more Integrity/Evocations. It'd better be a damned reasonable offer, otherwise I'm just going to say we should make with the murder and add slaying another Anathema/legion of Fair Folk to our reputation.
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A "peaceful" (possibly zen?) smile
 
Orm Embar said:
Might be worth nabbing more Integrity/Evocations. It'd better be a damned reasonable offer, otherwise I'm just going to say we should make with the murder and add slaying another Anathema/legion of Fair Folk to our reputation.
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I'm not familiar enough with the mechanics to know how necessary that would be, I recall we have resolve 6? Which seems mediocre versus Appearance 7. Does this mean we're going to have to be burning willpower all the time just to keep from getting a crush?

Orm Embar said:
Huh. Well, that's interesting, but not getting the support of the Freehold makes the option seem less attractive. This unknown presumably has resources of their own, though.
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Well, maybe part of the deal would involve making her... Empress SuperSlay! Comes with a prime Freehold, slightly used.
 
Vitaris said:
That dastardly Gold Faction, always lying and deceiving in the name of hope and progress...

Waitaminute, whatever happened to what's-his-name? Pearl's GF rival?
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Ascendant Rosary?

You don't know. Perhaps you might meet him, one of these days... though it's far more likely if you have a truly grand domain! Or he could just be dead. 50/50, really.
 
Orm Embar said:
Fair enough. By the opposite token, I think people are being too eager to invite the metaphorical wolf in, and all the available evidence comes in the form of the accounts from people exposed to her Presence Charms, which is biased to the point of meaninglessness.
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And yet they are really all we have, not to mentioned that are not even any reports of the Lily turning on her own, even if it was to dispense justice or whatnot. Indeed, from what we know she fervently tries to discourage such worship, though to little avail. Again, I doubt Rihaku would be so certain that alliance is a likely possibility if the Lily were truly so sinister as you claim.
Orm Embar said:
The only accounts from non-mindraped people indicate she doesn't understand the concepts of 'mercy' and 'restraint', which does not speak well of her at all.
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Ulyssian can hardly be accused of the same to his enemies, and when he does it is only to attain an advantage for himself, hardly altruistic reasons.
 
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1986ctcel said:
A "peaceful" (possibly zen?) smile
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At least Ulyssian has the common decency to look grimly determined when killing his enemies, and doesn't smile as if he was strolling through a sunlit field. That's what crazy people do!
SirLagginton said:
And yet they are really all we have, not to mentioned that are not even any reports of the Lily turning on her own, even if it was to dispense justice or whatnot. Indeed, from what we know she fervently tries to discourage such worship, though to little avail. Again, I doubt Rihaku would be so certain that alliance is a likely possibility if the Lily were truly so sinister as you claim.
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We have Talomar's accounts, and those of the soldiers and Dragonlords subservient to us. Their word should count for something, and Talomar seems a reasonable and levelheaded sort. The fact that she can't control her own charisma is not a mark in her favor in my book.
SirLagginton said:
Ulyssian can hardly be accused of the same to his enemies, and when he does it is only to attain an advantage for himself, hardly altruistic reasons.
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We've proven fairly merciful, as Scar and Maison's continued existence can attest to. Syryns as well, in fact.
 
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Orm Embar said:
We have Talomar's accounts, and those of the soldiers and Dragonlords subservient to us. Their word should count for something, and Talomar seems a reasonable and levelheaded sort.
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Our soldiers have also only interacted with her as an enemy, I don't think those are really the best conditions to bear witness to any positive side, nor would that leave them devoid of significant bias.
Orm Embar said:
We've proven fairly merciful, as Scar and Maison's continued existence can attest to.
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Point, but we were set to kill them if they refused to see things our way, by the same token just as the Lily of the Valley kills those in opposition to her, nor do I see any account of her killing anyone surrendering to her. Though I guess it's also in Ulyssian's favor that he attempted diplomacy as well.

He's getting there!

EDIT: And the only reason Syryns is alive was so we could wring her for more information via Zao, along with possibly convincing her to defect, which would've been hugely beneficial to us. Altruism doesn't really come into here. For all we know, she could be dead!
 
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SirLagginton said:
Our soldiers have also only interacted with her as an enemy, I don't think those are really the best conditions to bear witness to any positive side, nor would that leave them devoid of significant bias.
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So we haven't gotten any unbiased opinions on her, fair enough. I do think the people that haven't been mind-raped are more likely to have a realistic grasp of her nature, though, and they are our troops. We have a duty to support and fight for them, just as they do for us.
SirLagginton said:
Point, but we were set to kill them if they refused to see things our way, by the same token just as the Lily of the Valley kills those in opposition to her, nor do I see any account of her killing anyone surrendering to her. Though I guess it's also in Ulyssian's favor that he attempted diplomacy as well.
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We've hardly been given a detailed account of all her exploits; what we do know is that she mercilessly slaughters everyone opposing her once battle is joined, so I think it's fair to say that some of them at least tried. In the beginning, anyway. We spared Syryns even when there was no certain benefit to doing so and she was prepared to fight to the death. I have no problem with ruthlessness, but it should be the product of calculation, not psychosis.
 
SirLagginton said:
And the only reason Syryns is alive was so we could wring her for more information via Zao, along with possibly convincing her to defect, which would've been hugely beneficial to us. Altruism doesn't really come into here. For all we know, she could be dead!
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Some people did want to spare her because we'd already won and killing her was unnecessary. Getting actionable information on Anys was a long shot at bet, since she gives her minions the mushroom treatment.
 
Orm Embar said:
So we haven't gotten any unbiased opinions on her, fair enough. I do think the people that haven't been mind-raped are more likely to have a realistic grasp of her nature, though, and they are our troops. We have a duty to support and fight for them, just as they do for us.
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"Realistic" isn't the word I would use, considering that they saw her kill a number of their friends. After all, in that case it would be in their best interest to see them avenged!
Orm Embar said:
We've hardly been given a detailed account of all her exploits; what we do know is that she mercilessly slaughters everyone opposing her once battle is joined, so I think it's fair to say that some of them at least tried.
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She has been described to mercilessly slaughter everyone she deems an enemy yes, but to say that she kills everyone who attempts to surrender is another thing entirely, otherwise I doubt those defectors would be alive.
Orm Embar said:
SIn the beginning, anyway. We spared Syryns even when there was no certain benefit to doing so and she was prepared to fight to the death. I have no problem with ruthlessness, but it should be the product of calculation, not psychosis.
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She was on her last legs and we gave her to Zao, who would most assuredly kill her if he wasn't sure she turned. I don't think this really counts, considering that there isn't really a losing scenario for us here.
 
SirLagginton said:
"Realistic" isn't the word I would use, considering that they saw her kill a number of their friends. After all, in that case it would be in their best interest to see them avenged!
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Ours as well, if we desire a boost to our reputation as a slayer of Anathema and the absolute loyalty of the Ghost-Water.
SirLagginton said:
She has been described to mercilessly slaughter everyone she deems an enemy yes, but to say that she kills everyone who attempts to surrender is another thing entirely, otherwise I doubt those defectors would be alive.
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Fair enough. I think we've probably exhausted the amount of speculation possible, given the limited information we have. I'm still really uncomfortable with her overwhelming Charisma, though; we give her an inch and she'll take a mile.
SirLagginton said:
She was on her last legs and we gave her to Zao, who would most assuredly kill her if he wasn't sure she turned. I don't think this really counts, considering that there isn't really a losing scenario for us here.
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Eh, there were risks to Zao's/our influence if she died or vanished under suspicious circumstances after being publicly spared.
 
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I'd prefer the Lily, to be honest. She's an Exalt, the Raksha are Raksha. The former can at least be potentially useful, the latter are inhuman and a target for unilateral extermination.
 
Orm Embar said:
Ours as well, if we desire a boost to our reputation as a slayer of Anathema and the absolute loyalty of the Ghost-Water.
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Yes, there are advantages to killing her ourselves, but this doesn't dispute my argument that Talomar and the legion are very much unreliable sources in regard to her character.
Orm Embar said:
Fair enough. I think we've probably exhausted the amount of speculation possible, given the limited information available. I'm still really uncomfortable with her overwhelming Charisma, though; we give her an inch and she'll take a mile.
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A fair concern, allying with her would probably mean we would need to look into some Solar integrity charms.
Orm Embar said:
Eh, there were risks to Zao's/our influence if she died or vanished under suspicious circumstances after being publicly spared.
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Which were offset by the intelligence we would've ripped out of her, it was not like we would not have benefited even if we were forced to kill her.
 
Emerald Oracle said:
What benefits would getting Bureaucracy 5 get us? And are there any entry charms that are useful there? Unless you mean that 'a charm' as the spammable excellency, in which case I can see the appeal. Given that High Level Bureaucracy charms were already used against us (hello full Wyld Hunt in mere days) I would think the player base would recognize the power of Bureaucracy charms.
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I think exalts in 3E automatically get excellencies for any favored, caste or other ability that you have at least 1 charm in. So buying a single Bureaucracy charm gets us an excellency with it.

Speed the wheels is pretty hax if simple sounding. It won't build the infrastructure we need but it does make sure people keep working on it without stupid shit getting in their way.

As for the solar xp I would be for spending it on buffing our occult in preparation for sorcery when we hit E5 as the training time will be something we can't speed our way through. Maybe a dot or to in Bureaucracy as well.
 
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