[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
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Nah. We just have to give him a way to escape his cage and he'll mostly kill himself in the ensuing rush of betrayal. Then Ody kills the last few.
There are no guarantees. But knowledge and preparation are always better than the blind faith that things'll work out, at least in my book. We can at least try and minimize the damage.
No, but it does mean we stop instinctively questioning what she says and are no longer looking for manipulation. It gives Nilul a window to work her social magic, the proverbial inch she can use to take a mile.
That margin of doubt, that ability to deny her a foothold, that's our best defense against her subverting us.
If he's alive to do so, sure.
Frankly, I also like the fact that not trusting her keeps our options open: we can decide to help her later, or we can decide not to. The first path lacks that the opportunity to make that decision.
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Again - cost-benefit analysis. Increased chances of her fucking us over vs the effort spent trying to prevent that, factor in opportunity cost and potential impact on relationship, etc - worth it, y/n?
Other people getting a difference answer isn't a reason to start crying about the sky falling.
Okay, hold on, see - that's my point. No longer looking for manipulation doesn't mean we just start unquestioningly doing everything she says. Those are not the same thing.
But the thing is, nothing stops her from setting it up regardless of Uly's faith in her. And since we're talking about 1) HER enemies, who are 2) powerful enough to kill Ullysian, and he is not an idiot so will probably notice those facts... Why would he fight them after realizing she set him up?
Because a setup isn't a setup if you can just walk away from it. Nilul isn't an idiot either.
The chance of her fucking us over is apparently less of a chance and more of a certainty, from what Rihaku's said, which is why I view the effort spent on mitigating the damage as worthwhile. That we reinforce some of Ulyssian's most compelling character traits and have a nice callback to Odyssial's hatred of the Dragon's Shadow in the process are just an added bonus. You clearly have a more optimistic view of the situation, which is fine.
First of all, that's not the full quote. Unquestioning obedience is hyperbole, but is it so hard to imagine that a master manipulator could sink her hooks into Ulyissan if he let his guard down? Because that's what we'd be doing. Letting the walls come down and accepting that Nilul is acting in our best interests. Taking a leap of faith, as it were, only I don't have faith that she'll catch us. Far from it.
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Rihaku
The Internet
Is there interest in picking up Sorcery, which Odyssial didn't? If so, you may want to bank Solar XP to spam workings later on, especially if you get Heaven-Turning Calculations. With Fate-Shifting Solar Arête, Willpower Expenditure, and stunting, you could crank out Ambition 3 Solar Circle Workings once per month!
Eh, not too interested, especially not to the point of saving solar xp for it when doing so could tank our chances in the tournament.
That is actually half my point. Nilul is a manipulative monster, inherently evil or not, so if she wants to screw Ulyssian over, she most likely will. Unless he literally watches her every minute of every day. So it is more efficient to prepare for the worst by raising his general power level (i.e. things he is good at), than try to outwit the daughter of Ebon Dragon. And at teh same time try to archive an understanding, where the betrayal becomes not-so-inevitable.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Oh, well yeah - I mean chance that we could prevent it in the first place. That's what's unlikely, not the betrayal.
Fair - not sure I'd call unceasing paranoia a compelling character trait, but that's personal taste.
Yes, it is a bit hard to imagine - because if the room to question is there, much of what you are describing is a bit overblown. There are people I trust that I wouldn't do anything for. Nor does trust mean you accept everything someone else does.
Rihaku
The Internet
Well, it's a long-term play for sure, but the potential gains are enormous. If you have Solar Circle, then an Ambition 2 Celestial Circle Working is only 10,000 Solar XP, and it's equivalent in power to a mid-tier Celestial Exalt passive charm, given the examples. Stack 50 of those and you'll be an unholy terror!
Not to mention, you could finally actually use the Unity of the Closed Fist with Pearl.
But are any of those people superhumanly talented manipulators who want to use you as their own personal enemy-disposal device?
It does make you more likely to side with them over others, though. I just want Ulyssian to be able to make an informed decision when it comes to helping Nilul, with full knowledge of the consequences of his actions, which is what Don't Trust lets us do. When the piper comes calling, we'll be able to make a choice, as opposed to having already pledged to support Nilul against her shadowy adversaries.
So we're screwed no matter what? I don't accept that. There are always actions that can be taken, even if it's as simple as keeping one eye open and mitigating the damage.
With Better Listener, constant surveillance is not as unfeasible as it might seem at first glance.
Competence isn't just raw power, it's also predicting future problems and planning for their resolution. Ulyssian may be terrible at social manipulation, but he's an excellent strategist.
The probability of actually avoiding her betrayal entirely is astonishingly small.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Well, there wasn't as much need for that when the Solars ruled, but now? We are extremely well set up and safe when compared to other Solars, at least when speaking about the Wyld Hunt. And they are also mostly infants, meaning that there isn't likely even a Twilight that could reach the potential you are promising easily, let alone greatly surpass it.
Being able to reasonably safely create works of wonder without being continuously pursued could be a major advantage. Also, one of the example workings is limited immortality. Not sure if its worth it when compared to other things we could be accomplishing with Sorcery, but it sets a good example what you can accomplish with it.
The normal spells aren't bad either, though I would expect Uly to go for utility more than straight out offense with them, considering his personal prowess in battle without it. Maybe a few of them for certain situations and mote-conversing efficiency when slaying armies. And Uly's willpower makes him actually a pretty good for this, as he has... *checks character sheet* ...doesn't have it recorded. Huh. Rihaku, wasn't Uly's willpower ten in the last quest?
Also, ready to crank out stunts like no tomorrow if the option gets picked. The new system for Sorcery seems quite interesting.
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Sure it could be great, but I think we need to be careful not to let our reach exceed our grasp. We're still a scrub right now, and if we spend all our time going for long term payoffs we won't stay a scrub sure... but that's because we'll be dead, not because we achieved an apotheosis.
Still... I guess considering Sesus lost it wouldn't be that big a hit if we bombed out of the tournament. If we went with this plan though I think we should definitely drop mingling from our choice. No need to increase the embarrassment.
Rihaku
The Internet
Spells are a waste in combat unless you really need the AoE, the stuff you really want is passive buffs that don't cost committed motes, like Invulnerable Skin of Bronze, or workings that are passive and don't cost committed motes. That way you can get disgustingly overpowered by stacking countless buffs on yourself - even if you can't break dice caps or mimic Infinite Excellencies, you can get ludicrous numbers of miscellaneous buffs!
Well, you would be trusting her about as much as you trust Saery, and you already do stuff for her, so the situation is quite perilous if she decides to take advantage. On the other hand, yes, this might be a path to possibly 'redeeming' her, inasmuch as that is even remotely a thing. But that itself could be a ploy.
The question is not whether Ulyssian can be vigilant all the time (of course he can
), but is a constant sink on his resources to check one person worth it? Which is not certain to help either way. What I am saying is that he should spend that energy not on directing it against Nilul, but on bettering himself. More efficient this way. On that note...Didn't mean to imply that. Shoudn't have used that expression.
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
B-b-but...what if recognizing the ploy and acting to counter it is part of the real ploy!
Not as vigilant as he could have been if he'd chosen YOUTH!The question is not whether Ulyssin can be vigilant all the time (of course he can
It's a valid viewpoint, though we're not turning it against Nilul so much as we are being vigilant. I'd just prefer to shoulder the extra inconvenience to ensure that what power we do have it directed towards our ends, not Nilul's. Power without purpose is useless, but power turned towards someone else's purpose? That's dangerous. When it's Ulyssian's power, it's doubly so.
A belated welcome to the quest, by the way. It's good to have fresh faces; I hope I'm not discouraging you.
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That way lies madness. Turn back while the entrance to the rabbithole is still in sight.B-b-but...what if recognizing the ploy and acting to counter it is part of the real ploy!
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm, thinking on it further, stacking 50 Workings on yourself might be overkill given your already formidable combat power. Probably better to give them to your allies or people you'd want to protect, like Moon! It would certainly make her more powerful than Flowing Mind Prana would, though at the cost of your non-refunded Solar XP!
... That's, that's not fair! You're dangling two ways to power up Moon in front of my bleary, sleep-deprived eyes!
Well, would redeeming her even be an enjoyable thing to do I wonder? The status quo of their interaction is quite enjoyable to me, not sure I'd want her to be 'normalized'. Also if we decide not to trust her, and at some point our interests diverge such that she leads us into some unfavorable situation. Well I say fair is fair, as in that case we'd have gone into it with our eyes open, so if we die from it, well that's life. Plus if we manage to sword our way out of whatever the issue is, then sure we should try to track her down and kill her. But we wouldn't have to be all outraged about betrayed trusts and broken bonds in the doing.
Rihaku
The Internet
The question is not whether Ulyssin can be vigilant all the time (of course he can
Didn't mean to imply that. Shoudn't have used that expression.
Indeed, Ulyssian would agree with you! The path to ultimate power is through training, and ultimate power reduces the need for vigilance!
But, while you are weak, should you not exert some level of CONSTANT VIGILANCE?
B-b-but...what if recognizing the ploy and acting to counter it is part of the real ploy!
No, she actually does use plots that twisty, though only against people she judges would be defeated by them. And she doesn't rely on them as far as you've seen, she just does those for "fun," low- or high-stakes social situations that she would be able to effortlessly recover from even if she failed spectacularly. It's like you agreeing to fight with one hand tied behind your back - completely irrelevant to how utterly you'd stomp 99% of people.
Rihaku
The Internet
You could also use an Ambition 3 Solar Working to give her the innate potential to grow as powerful as a Third Circle Daeva of Gaia, within a strategically relevant lifetime.
Indeed, that is one consideration to add. You may enjoy how things currently are with Nilul and Ulyssian, and not want them to change!
Ah, but the faster Ulyssian becomes an unstoppable juggernaut, the faster he cease being weak! Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a good balance between vigilance and training. But it is also quite logical to assume Nilul won't betray him before amassing enough power to make it stick. ...So it is a race to absolute power between them.