[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Not when his suspicion doesn't actually accomplish anything of note compared to the costs required to maintain it.
Rihaku
The Internet
You guys really should buy Flashing Ruse Prana at some point, too. It's just too good to pass up! Being attacked by a Wyld Hunt? Assassinate one of its members and replace them in secret!
If you're going for Flowing Mind Prana, then you'll get First Knowledge's grace for the second Lore Charm pre-req of Wake the Sleeper. The first being, of course, Prophet of Seventeen Cycles. If you're not, you'll probably get Heaven-Turning Calculations regardless in that slot. Though, it's just bonus dice, so eh. You already have Fate-Shifting Solar Arête + Peerless Skill or astrology combo to blow the top off important non-battle rolls.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Trust Nilul
No. of votes: 32
CharlBaal, cyberswordsmen, Candesce, Emerald Oracle, afterthought53, Dream Logic, Fumbles, Serous, Pipeman, Van Ropen, useofstrike32, Felius, Daniel14541, aja318, 1986ctcel, Elero, LordOfMurder, Quizer, trekbook, Coaxmetal, Nezi karaketas, SometimesMaybe, Ridiculously Average Guy, Random Asian Person, dragon, Robotninja, Usernames, Alectai, tripleofive, Yzarc, veekie, inawarminister
[X] Don't Trust Nilul
No. of votes: 16
TheOtherSandman, Orm Embar, Savonarola, Dark Lord Bob, Khaos, Vitaris, CrawlingChaos74, Guile, VanusDraco, Daxxt, SirLagginton, Diller, inventive alias, Grimmair, Thomasfoolery, vel10
[X] Attend the feast
No. of votes: 32
CharlBaal, Alectai, cyberswordsmen, Candesce, Emerald Oracle, Garlak, afterthought53, Serous, Pipeman, Van Ropen, useofstrike32, Daniel14541, aja318, 1986ctcel, inventive alias, Elero, Quizer, Thomasfoolery, trekbook, Coaxmetal, Nezi karaketas, SometimesMaybe, Ridiculously Average Guy, Random Asian Person, dragon, Robotninja, Usernames, tripleofive, kinglugia, Yzarc, veekie, inawarminister
[X] Register and Get Out
No. of votes: 5
TheOtherSandman, Fumbles, CrawlingChaos74, LordOfMurder, Grimmair
##### 3.21
[X] Trust Nilul
No. of votes: 32
CharlBaal, cyberswordsmen, Candesce, Emerald Oracle, afterthought53, Dream Logic, Fumbles, Serous, Pipeman, Van Ropen, useofstrike32, Felius, Daniel14541, aja318, 1986ctcel, Elero, LordOfMurder, Quizer, trekbook, Coaxmetal, Nezi karaketas, SometimesMaybe, Ridiculously Average Guy, Random Asian Person, dragon, Robotninja, Usernames, Alectai, tripleofive, Yzarc, veekie, inawarminister
[X] Don't Trust Nilul
No. of votes: 16
TheOtherSandman, Orm Embar, Savonarola, Dark Lord Bob, Khaos, Vitaris, CrawlingChaos74, Guile, VanusDraco, Daxxt, SirLagginton, Diller, inventive alias, Grimmair, Thomasfoolery, vel10
[X] Attend the feast
No. of votes: 32
CharlBaal, Alectai, cyberswordsmen, Candesce, Emerald Oracle, Garlak, afterthought53, Serous, Pipeman, Van Ropen, useofstrike32, Daniel14541, aja318, 1986ctcel, inventive alias, Elero, Quizer, Thomasfoolery, trekbook, Coaxmetal, Nezi karaketas, SometimesMaybe, Ridiculously Average Guy, Random Asian Person, dragon, Robotninja, Usernames, tripleofive, kinglugia, Yzarc, veekie, inawarminister
[X] Register and Get Out
No. of votes: 5
TheOtherSandman, Fumbles, CrawlingChaos74, LordOfMurder, Grimmair
I'd like to be the Sesus asshole that doesn't interact for the most part, leaving that to Nilul.
"You get to talk to me if you make Ro32, until then, refer to my second."
Hopefully she can parlay that into making them feel bad about their lives, and thinking we'd be a good role model.
. This is of course a strategy that heavily depends on actual success in the tournament...As for build considerations, I'm not to big a fan on spending for evocations on our current armor, but depending on how things shake out in the future it may be that some of training time wouldn't have been used anyway so it could be alright. Of the Adamants I like Peerless Skill more, though I'm far too shaky on the mechanics to know if it's actually the better choice. If we did end up getting it though I'd be a lot more keen on the heaven infiltration mission after the tournament. Oh what folly a single line of text can lead mortals to!
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We have it from her own mouth that we're good at detecting the truth. We discerned her Anathema nature even before we Exalted, and we recently invested in Better Listener. We have the skillset, it's just a matter of making use of it.
That's fair. It does take energy, but it's a relatively insignificant investment, and totally worth it if it can forestall or mitigate a betrayal. It's not as if Ulyssian is lacking in dedication and focus; why not spend some of that focus attenuating a risk?
We've relied on Nilul for small stuff in the past, and she's always seemed to be genuine in her aid, but she's also demanded favors in return. Now that the stakes are higher, I'd say she merits closer surveillance, not more latitude.
So, what, the option is without benefits? If that were true, it wouldn't have been offered. Rihaku outright told us to be more paranoid.
Her skills inform her behaviors, and her behaviors are the basis from which habits are built. As for the relationship being strained? I don't see it. Nilul claims she's more open than ever before; there is a sort of happy equilibrium and mutual respect between the two that I don't want to taint with the introduction of foolhardy trust.
And if Nilul were genuine and wanted to prove it, she had an opportunity to do so, but did not. Either she's being deceitful or her nature is such that she can't bring herself to trust Ulyssian to the degree that we would be trusting her. Both are arguments against her.
I think Nilul's grasp of social graces is sufficient to easily understand that Ulyssian would respond well to forthrightness; that she could not bring herself to make that overture even when Ulyssian offered her an olive branch and a chance to him clean is on her, not him.
What? Is your opinion of Ulyssian truly so low that you think he would murder an ally in cold blood because she was insufficiently persuasive? Even aside from that being not at all in character (he's curt and anti-social, but loyal almost to a fault), she's his second for the tournament. How would he explain that? There's no way he would kill her; that outcome was never even in the same room, much less on the table.
My central objection is that she didn't ask for consent, even when Ulyssian would have understood her reasons and been totally okay with it.
In light of the topic of this discussion, I thought this song apropos.
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meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
We might need a bit better Social stats to fool people to who he would do this, if they are any close to each other. Even short interactions might give him away.
But what if we want to blow it up even more?
- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
Dude they're called TRUST ISSUES for a reason you don't just "get over them" and if she doesn't trust us enough to be honest with us then the proper solution is to continue on and SHOW HER that she can trust us.
Rihaku
The Internet
The disguise charm actually has defenses in place to prevent you from being easily detected, as long as you are even a passable liar.
Then you better be willing to spend the XP.
I'd like to be the Sesus asshole that doesn't interact for the most part, leaving that to Nilul.
"You get to talk to me if you make Ro32, until then, refer to my second."
Hopefully she can parlay that into making them feel bad about their lives, and thinking we'd be a good role model.
As for build considerations, I'm not to big a fan on spending for evocations on our current armor, but depending on how things shake out in the future it may be that some of training time wouldn't have been used anyway so it could be alright. Of the Adamants I like Peerless Skill more, though I'm far too shaky on the mechanics to know if it's actually the better choice. If we did end up getting it though I'd be a lot more keen on the heaven infiltration mission after the tournament. Oh what folly a single line of text can lead mortals to!
Well, the two are synergistic. Peerless Skill only works if you have really high Initiative, and Divine Dragon Speed gives you more Initiative!
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
And yet, her performances for us are flawless, no? We detect nothing false about them at all.
And there are enormous opportunity costs and risks to blithely assuming that she has our best interests at heart, which I have elaborated on at length. Also, and this is kind of callous, but if Nilul's known us for months and we already know her true nature, and she ours, and she still can't bring herself to do it in this setting... maybe it's just not worth it? Redemption is a long shot that isn't consistent with our nature to begin with. That time could be better spent in training or cultivating actual friends, people who respond to gestures of trust with more of the same.
Rihaku
The Internet
You have detected falsehoods from her in the past, even when you were a mortal. On two prominent occasions! But doing so reliably, that may be more difficult. Or what she's doing - using Manipulation to playfully accent her interactions - isn't truly deceptive, and doesn't trigger your shadiness detector.
OR, it's just another level in her game. Do not underestimate the labyrinthiness of her plots!
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
And there are no opportunity costs incurred by expending the continuous mental energy we currently do on trying to assess her motives and accomplishing little since we rarely know what's real and what's fake and never know what's meant to be real and what's meant to be fake?
I am glad you finally reached this point though, because your argument this entire time basically seemed like "why we should just avoid Nilul entirely and have done so from day one", which we haven't at all been doing.
She's good, but not impenetrable to Ulyssian's insights.Rihaku said:
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Yeah, I thought that was him intellectually knowing she is telling a falsehood but it appearing perfect.
Like, her saying "but the sky is hot pink!" and being entirely moving while doing so...but obviously she's not sincere about the sky being pink.
Unless I'm overthinking things?
We have gotten genuine insights into her in the past. She is good, but so is Ulyssian when it comes to piercing deception.
That's not the case. A mutually beneficial alliance based on respect is in our best interests; I've never denied that she's useful, it's just that everyone else seems to suddenly be denying that she's dangerous after this little display of evasion and faux openness, which is not the case.
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Who is denying she's dangerous?!
Consider it mechanically as her using mostly baseline deception when dealing with us, and dropping a lot more charm power in when dealing with Important stuff. She decieves because it's her nature, but she doesn't seem to be really trying that hard with us. Or even trying.
All those people who seem to think that if we just put faith in her everything'll be peachy keen, filled with sunshine and rainbows and a total absence of her abusing our ill-considered trust?
Part of respecting the tiger is acknowledging the risks and knowing what you're getting into. We can not trust her and still be her friend. We can even choose to aid her against Malfean forces. But when we do it will be an actual choice, not because we were pre-committed to helping her because we decided to let Nilul lead us about by the nose.
Ulyssian just isn't the sort of person who jumps into things without knowing what he's getting into, in my opinion.
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
No, it's a cost-benefit analysis. Increased chances of her fucking us over vs the effort spent trying to prevent that, factor in opportunity cost and potential impact on relationship, etc - worth it, y/n?
That doesn't meant forgetting what she is, anymore than anyone forgets what Uly is.
...I didn't realize trust implied obedience.
New poster here!
[X] Trust Nilul
[X] Attend the Feast
A little surprised myself for making this choice, but eh... I'm sure the power of friendship will persevere in the end.
More seriously, I just can't see not trusting her mattering much in case she is after all an unrepentant inevitable traitor. With her bullshit social combat powers and her always lying, it's not like Uly has a higher than a miniscule chance of actually seeing through her at the right moment. And at that, it woudn't even matter if she chooses a different angle of attack - who says Nilul has to directly manipulate Uly and not his environment? Whether we trust her, she can get us into serious shit - it's not like the 'don't trust her' option is an instant betrayal prevention, she will still have time to plot. And the more suspicious we are of her, the more reason Nilul will have to spite us in the end.
On the other hand, in case of a possible positive character development for her, this seems like a pretty important decision. IF she isn't acting, this is a great chance to cultivate a deeper relationship! Which is not certain to reappear in the future.
In shorter term, we're already stuck with her for the tournament arc, and alienating her is simply suboptimal at the moment. Presenting a united front, with full energy directed at the outer threats sounds like a good idea against such potential opponents. It is not only Uly who will have constantly expend focus on her, Nilul herself would most likely be able to perform better if she didn't have to worry about Uly.
[X] Trust Nilul
[X] Attend the Feast
A little surprised myself for making this choice, but eh... I'm sure the power of friendship will persevere in the end.
More seriously, I just can't see not trusting her mattering much in case she is after all an unrepentant inevitable traitor. With her bullshit social combat powers and her always lying, it's not like Uly has a higher than a miniscule chance of actually seeing through her at the right moment. And at that, it woudn't even matter if she chooses a different angle of attack - who says Nilul has to directly manipulate Uly and not his environment? Whether we trust her, she can get us into serious shit - it's not like the 'don't trust her' option is an instant betrayal prevention, she will still have time to plot. And the more suspicious we are of her, the more reason Nilul will have to spite us in the end.
On the other hand, in case of a possible positive character development for her, this seems like a pretty important decision. IF she isn't acting, this is a great chance to cultivate a deeper relationship! Which is not certain to reappear in the future.
In shorter term, we're already stuck with her for the tournament arc, and alienating her is simply suboptimal at the moment. Presenting a united front, with full energy directed at the outer threats sounds like a good idea against such potential opponents. It is not only Uly who will have constantly expend focus on her, Nilul herself would most likely be able to perform better if she didn't have to worry about Uly.
We're entering into a situation that is very much her wheelhouse, so if Ulyssian decides to increase the level of trust placed in her, the chances of him deferring to her when he perhaps shouldn't go up. There are moderate tradeoffs in efficiency of teamwork and a small investment of energy devoted to analyzing her motives; to me, that's enough to justify Don't Trust.
Also, in trusting her, we are committing to help her against her enemies. That might not be obedience exactly, but it is unconditional aid, which is not dissimilar.
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Look. There was talk earlier about how Zao trusts her so we should - it was shot down because with significant effort, she can fool even him, yes?
If she really wanted to fuck us, will "don't trust" prevent us from being fucked over?
And yeah, you didn't actually respond to the point there. Why does trust equate obedience? You suggested it would mean he defers to her more readily in her sphere - yeah, we've been doing that already - but how does that affect his major decisions in other fields? Why did Uly lose his ability to decide things? Trusting someone doesn't mean you immediately agree with everything they say and do everything they tell you.
But the aid was explicitly stated to be conditional in the last update. Something along the lines of, "I won't set you up against enemies you can't handle". Otherwise, Ulyssian can just as easily revoke that trust.