[Exalted, ?] Most High

Odyssial thought it was a good idea, but those memories will be filtered through the lens of a new perspective, Ulyssian's perspective.
I. e., Ulyssian is expected to change, possibly significantly, from who Odyssial was.

I'm not entirely clear on why you consider this the same as being Odyssial, but I suppose it's a closer relationship than there is between Nilul and the Ebon Dragon.

It's still enough of a basis to say that Ulyssian isn't trustworthy by the standards you're setting for Nilul, though.
 
We are very nearly at the point where you will hit Essence 5, XP-wise; you already have enough XP to get almost halfway there. Very soon you will cap out the build that a normal Solar can achieve, so consider your next 13 Charm picks very carefully. However, you do have a lot of Solar XP free, cap-space wise.
 
I'm not entirely clear on why you consider this the same as being Odyssial, but I suppose it's a closer relationship than there is between Nilul and the Ebon Dragon.
Same soul, same nature, same Exaltation, some shared memories, and continuity of consciousness.
It's still enough of a basis to say that Ulyssian isn't trustworthy by the standards you're setting for Nilul, though.
... what? Nilul is untrustworthy both because the powers she has reinforce untrustworthy behavior and because she's manipulated and deceived us in the past. If you're reducing my argument to 'Nilul is untrustworthy solely because she's associated with TED', then you're critically missing the point.
 
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continuity of consciousness.
This is the bit that I'd question. Because no, we don't have continuity of consciousness from Odyssial, not at the end of his life.

You'd be closer if you were claiming we're an alpha fork, from when he was younger.
... what? Nilul is untrustworthy because the powers she has reinforce untrustworthy behavior and because she's manipulated and deceived us in the past. If you're reducing my argument to 'Nilul is untrustworthy solely because she's associated with TED', then you're critically missing the point.
Personally, I'm arguing that Odyssial's powers reinforce untrustworthy behavior, and that he's manipulated and destroyed people in the past.

No reduction involved.

Maybe I'd see things differently if we'd gone for The Peerless City rather than The Lathe of Heaven. But as it is, we made Odyssial a lot closer to Salina than Desus, and not in a good way.
 
This is the bit that I'd question. Because no, we don't have continuity of consciousness from Odyssial, not at the end of his life.
The soul is the same; he commanded Lethos not to erase its attributes. Even if we don't remember everything, it's the same spark of sentience, the same 'I'.
Maybe I'd see things differently if we'd gone for The Peerless City rather than The Lathe of Heaven. But as it is, we made Odyssial a lot closer to Salina than Desus, and not in a good way.
Odyssial's powers are Solar powers. The thematics have nothing in common with the Ebon Dragon; they promote excellence and the pursuit of perfection, not subversion and the betrayal of allegiances. For the record, I voted for the Peerless City, but equating the Solar powerset with TED's in terms of potential to corrupt the wielder is just patently absurd.
 
Of course, Consciousness and memory are not the same, though identity involves both. The analogy would be of a man who went to sleep, had a dream, woke up, forgot the dream, and is starting to remember it again. When he fully remembers the dream, that is when we can consider him to be Odyssial in full, though with adsitional life experiences and such. But he does essentially act as Odyssial would act, even now. Or rather, he acts exactly as Odyssial would act, given this set of memories and abilities.

Except when you guys get control, and make him do crazy shit!
 
Is there any interest in perhaps raising your Strength and Intelligence rather than getting as many Evocations? If you're going to get Wake the Sleeper anyway, it would sort of be a more efficient use of your XP and time?
 
We can draw conclusions based on observed behavior.
Yes. Exactly.

I think Rihaku has made an excellent choice of fatal flaw for Odyssial and Ulyssian, given the quest format - it's one that most voters will buy into without even considering that it might be a flaw.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy following his quests, even if I often don't participate much.

But we can see exactly where that flaw leads him by watching what he's done and why people have made the votes they do - Ulyssian and Odyssial had the habit of acquiring personal power, and while that personal power allows them to do many great things, and protect many people - we can becomes we should. Both of them (even before Ulyssian's exaltation) are immensely demanding of the people around them, and exalt their own judgement over all others - in what favours they owe or are owed, in who people should be, in deciding what is fair or just. The Infinite Singularity Husk is just the culmination of that; it's merely on a larger scale.

There's a reason you're treating can lie to us without getting caught as a bigger deal than might choose to destroy all Creation.

Is there any interest in perhaps raising your Strength and Intelligence rather than getting as many Evocations? If you're going to get Wake the Sleeper anyway, it would sort of be a more efficient use of your XP and time?
Certainly!

I'd also be interested in higher Charisma, but I'm guessing that's not likely regardless.
 
We are very nearly at the point where you will hit Essence 5, XP-wise; you already have enough XP to get almost halfway there. Very soon you will cap out the build that a normal Solar can achieve, so consider your next 13 Charm picks very carefully. However, you do have a lot of Solar XP free, cap-space wise.

Well that is without Essence 5 charms since before 300 xp you can't get them outside the supernal and tricks like BPA. We should be able to some number of Essence 5 charms, the only limit would be whatever you wanted or what you decide the Elder essence 6+ figure is.
 
Appearance should probably be the easiest social stat for you to raise, you can just get surgery done from Numida! Combined with your beyond peak human pseudo-wuxia hero / Greek demigod physique, it's a justifiable purchase. Actually you could probably go up one point without any surgery, given your insane physical stats.
 
I could go for that, sure. We didn't opt for the Power of YOUTH Exercise, so the damage boost from strength is relevant, and intellect is always helpful.

If you guys don't end up getting Wake the Sleeper, though, it really is uber inefficient.

Well that is without Essence 5 charms since before 300 xp you can't get them outside the supernal and tricks like BPA. We should be able to some number of Essence 5 charms, the only limit would be whatever you wanted or what you decide the Elder essence 6+ figure is.

Yeah, but there aren't very many E5 charms in existence, sadly. You already get access to the Melee ones anyway, so it's basically Aegis of Invulnerable Might, God-King's Shrike, E5+ Evocations, and Solar Circle Sorcery.

What is Wake The Sleeper?

A Lore capstone Charm that gives you tons of free Evocations when combined with Fate-Shifting Solar Arête.
 
No, the entire point is that Ulyssian's bullshit detector is good enough that we have a shot, but only if we devote energy to sifting through her statements for deceptions. We figured out she was Anathema before we bloody Exalted. If you look carefully, you'll note that nothing she did in that chat was empirically false; vague to the point of uselessness, yes, but no outright lies.
That does seem somewhat questionable.
She will know that we continue not to trust her, can find ways to work around that or even use it to her advantage and, while Uly has lots of areas to improve upon and a ridiculous amount of challenges to take care of, she focuses on nothing but improving her ability to scheme and would be putting all of her resources and attention into any betrayal plans.
At the very best continuing to distrust her is going to give us a chance at seeing her betrayal coming and given our tendency to go to Nilul in order to deal with any social problem simply because we need that good results, I even doubt that.
In spite of all our vigilance she could easily have fucked us over while ostensibly doing her best to calm our family down during calibration and can very much do the same during this event because we have literally no way to tell the difference between her failing to handle things, her intentionally screwing up, her just being a meddlesome friend with priorities that make Uly uncomfortable or her setting up some slihgtly longer term betrayal.

Even if one were to assume that, yes, she is indeed going to betray us at some point, the sheer amount of energy we keep putting into double-checking everything she's saying could very well not be worth the effort, especially not compared to just stopping to associate with her at all, which past experience has shown is clearly not going to happen.

Nilul has been central to so many of our safety nets, attempts at damage control and operations that continuing to distrust her is starting to have some serious costs.
We're about to enter a situation with socially specced Elder DBs present, are going to be around for an entire week, have only Nilul for support and have on top of that apparently decided to start things off by getting Uly out of his comfort zone and into a situation where he has to rely very heavily on Nilul to have any chance of coming out ahead. Trusting Nilul here will give a signficant bonus to our cooperation and we do kind of need whatever advantages we can get for this.

Whether she really is only acting or not, trusting her would help our efforts here and in the future a lot. If she is playing us for a fool, it does a lot to convince her to stick around and keep working with us if only out of enlightened self-interest and, if she's being genuine, it does a lot to reassure her that she is making the right call with this.
We have solid reasons to trust her regardless of what the case is, because the alternative is not really guaranteed to do much against a betrayal and can do a lot to speed it up or cause it regardless of which is the truth.

Not to mention that at this point continuing with distrusting her mainly because she's good at the skillset that makes her so useful is honestly becoming more and more dof a straing on their relationship for Uly to do.
Yes, Nilul completely avoided the questions we actually asked her, but that's not something you can really use as an argument against her, because it fits both a genuine Nilul with her trust issues and a competent Nilul planning on betrayal.

The only thing that incident really shows is that Uly continues to have no social grace whatsoever.
Seriously, he asks a question that a deceitful Nilul is neither going to give a straight nor an incriminating answer on and one that a genuine Nilul is going to give an evasive half answer to and, as was to be expected, all he really got out of it was nothing substantial, if she's being deceitful, and a Nilul that feels like shit because she can't bring herself to be upfront about the whole thing, if she's being genuine.
That's not really something you can be upset over not getting an answer to, that's just Uly once again being a dick to his friends.

It's starting to get to the point where you can really question whether Nilul is neither falling back on her Manipulation skills during friendly conversations because she can't bring herself to do otherwise, nor because she is still deceiving him, but simply because Uly is kind of an asshole, doesn't really trust her and might just decide to kill her if she fucks up her Charisma roll too badly.
Just like there were very good reasons for her to put all her effort into making sure someone as socially incompetent as Uly doesn't give her very dangerous secrets away (which is honestly more than enough to justify her Charm use, whether it was really "mindrape" or not), there are very good reasons for her to make sure she has her entire dicepool to throw at dealing with someone as dangerous and capable of ruthlessness as Uly that doesn't even trust her.
 
It's starting to get to the point where you can really question whether Nilul is neither falling back on her Manipulation skills during friendly conversations because she can't bring herself to do otherwise, nor because she is still deceiving him, but simply because Uly is kind of an asshole, doesn't really trust her and might just decide to kill her if she fucks up her Charisma roll too badly.
Just like there were very good reasons for her to put all her effort into making sure someone as socially incompetent as Uly doesn't give her very dangerous secrets away (which is honestly more than enough to justify her Charm use, whether it was really "mindrape" or not), there are very good reasons for her to make sure she has her entire dicepool to throw at dealing with someone as dangerous and capable of ruthlessness as Uly that doesn't even trust her.
Given that most of the arguments presented so far as a reason not to trust her do amount to reasons to kill her, this isn't really surprising.

Assuming we're not planning on killing people just because they're competent enough to get away with shit around us, though -

Would the people who don't trust Nilul be happier with the consequences of us trusting Nilul and thus getting hit with whatever she can figure out to hit us that won't backlash against her, that she'll almost certainly put off until she's gotten significant use out of our combat ability against her enemies and thus won't occur anytime soon - or not trusting her, building up Stress and Limit whenever we're near her, and risking her pushing us into Limit Break at a time of her choosing?

Because at the moment, the second's what you're effectively arguing for.
 
There's a reason you're treating can lie to us without getting caught as a bigger deal than might choose to destroy all Creation.
I am, am I? Clearly you know my own motivations better than I do. It couldn't possibly be that Nilul lying to us is an immediate issue, clearly related to the current decision point, and the latter is a long-term choice that's not even tangentially relevant to what we're doing at the moment. In any case, you've made it abundantly clear that you think the protagonist is a horrible monster who needs to be stopped.
 
Yeah, but there aren't very many E5 charms in existence, sadly. You already get access to the Melee ones anyway, so it's basically Aegis of Invulnerable Might, God-King's Shrike, E5+ Evocations, and Solar Circle .

So Evocations and Solar circle sorcery then, well we still have some leeway after hitting the essence 5 cap though crossing it might take some doing.
 
If you guys don't end up getting Wake the Sleeper, though, it really is uber inefficient.
I'm also for getting it. But speaking of Lore Charms, Heaven-Turning Calculations: it isn't necessary to get to the capstone, but it would be quite useful if we are getting Sorcery and/or Wyld-Shaping Technique. If we get a Lore -title, would that particular Charm be included to it, or would be a part of a Sorcery -title?
 
Given that most of the arguments presented so far as a reason not to trust her do amount to reasons to kill her, this isn't really surprising.
I'm not arguing to kill Nilul; I just don't want to blindly trust her to do the right thing for us when she's proven in the past that our interests are not perfectly aligned. What you don't know can and will kill you in Creation. She's a member of a secret class of Exalt designed for subversion; why should Ulyssian put an excess of faith in such an individual? Isn't it far more in-character for him to suspicious?
Would the people who don't trust Nilul be happier with the consequences of us trusting Nilul and thus getting hit with whatever she can figure out to hit us that won't backlash against her, that she'll almost certainly put off until she's gotten significant use out of our combat ability against her enemies and thus won't occur anytime soon - or not trusting her, building up Stress and Limit whenever we're near her, and risking her pushing us into Limit Break at a time of her choosing?
Nilul doesn't know Limit Breaks are a thing. Nobody does. We have not been given reason to believe that Don't Trust adds to Stress; all the options that do so have been clearly delineated. You are fearmongering, stop that.
 
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[x] Trust Nilul
[x] Attend the Feast
us
I think this will be interesting. It's also going to be really difficult to have her advance our interests socially when we don't trust her not to set us up for a fall.

It also tweaks the ebon dragon.
 
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