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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Pipeman said:
Personally, I'm still voting to just ignore Zao and getting that XP.
I mean, I wouldn't mind Persuading him successfully, but I think the whole Truth vs Sword dichtonomy is a bit overblown because noone is even considering that failing to succeed doesn't have to lead to being cowed by Zao.
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But then you'd be a maverick! And do you really want that?
 
Orm Embar said:
Zao is a thousand years old. He is the cynic to end all cynics. His cynicism is the event horizon into which all lesser pessimism is inevitably drawn. The sword doesn't make him 'evil', it enables him to do what he already wants to do. That Zao wielding the sword is undesirable from certain perspectives is an indictment of Zao himself, not the weapon.

Moon is young, brilliant, idealistic, and immensely capable. To claim she will suddenly develop into a monster is fearmongering of the lowest order.
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Did you not read the part where I said it would subtly influence her over time?

Of course it wouldn't suddenly make her into a monster. However it would change her over time.

Again because Moon admires our work ethic so much she will be very receptive to Ambition making her more like us except it's making her more like Odyissial and Ody had H10.
 
Fuck it. I'd be willing to give her the sword. Even if it give her Odyssial levels of heartlessness, the way he treated his few friends reassure me.

and of course no point in giving it without telling her the truth.
edit: and I'm aware I'm changing my mind. Again. But this is the last time. Expect if Rihaku decide to be evil again.
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[X] Tell the Truth and give the Sword
 
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[X] Persuasion
-[X] Give Moon Ambition.

I think people have been making some very silly arguments as far as not giving people Ambition goes. One of the swords primary functions is to empower people to further Odyssial's agenda. As people have been saying, if we wanted a sword that made us just a personal combat monster, we should have gotten Away.

By giving Moon Ambition we get another solar-tier combatant on our side, which is a really big deal.
 
Diller said:
Again because Moon admires our work ethic so much she will be very receptive to Ambition making her more like us except it's making her more like Odyissial and Ody had H10.
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No, look at what the sword is actually stated to do. It is making her work towards Odyssial's goals and always be trying to self-improve - but what she considers self-improvement and how she achieves those goals is very much dependent on her and us, in the here and now.

Advancing his greater agenda in general does not by its nature require H10. H10 was the result of his own actions.


[X] Tell the Truth and give the Sword
 
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Diller said:
Did you not read the part where I said it would subtly influence her over time?
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Naturally. That's part of the benefit, how it operates: it impels people towards excellence. It builds arete.
Diller said:
Again because Moon admires our work ethic so much she will be very receptive to Ambition making her more like us except it's making her more like Odyissial and Ody had H10.
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It makes her work towards Odyssial's goals. It does not, as I have and many others have stated, give people H10. We don't even know Heartlessness is a thing for other people. That is baseless supposition, unsupported by evidence. If anything, it's unlikely Odyssial would forge a blade to explicitly destroy his lieutenants' compassion.
 
[X] Tell the Truth and give the Sword

That said, I value the Truth as my top priority.
 
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Alectai said:
Bullshit, Ambition is not sapient, and it's not going to override our will because lolgrimdark great curse misery.

It's a perfect weapon, it's not going to do something we wouldn't want it to do just because it was finished in the end of the Second Age. The foundations were laid while Odyssial was still relatively young and idealistic. And by word of Rihaku, we have the same will and mindset that Odyssial possessed--it's not going to decide that "The only way for her to help her survive and thrive is by breaking everything that master likes about her!"

That's straight up Asshole Genie territory, and Odyssial would not consider a weapon to be perfect if it wouldn't accomodate the will and spirit of the master.
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Orm Embar said:
Naturally. That's part of the benefit, how it operates: it impels people towards excellence. It builds arete.

It makes her work towards Odyssial's goals. It does not, as I have and many others have stated, give people H10. We don't even know Heartlessness is a thing for other people. That is baseless supposition, unsupported by evidence. If anything, it's unlikely Odyssial would forge a blade to explicitly destroy his lieutenants' compassion.
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The sword doesn't have morals.

Or rather, it doesn't take them into account when influencing its wielder. Saying that it will turn everyone into some evil, exaggerated version of Odyssial, complete with villain laugh and moustache-twirling, is an exaggeration, but it explicitly bends their minds. Some might consider what it does benign, of course, but...
The wielder of Ambition is driven always to great purpose. In a mortal's hands or a god-kings', the blade grants an unceasing perpetuity of will, such that the wielder will always be pressed towards self-improvement, and towards the same ultimate goals as Odyssial. They could even take up this blade with a desire to harm him, but through them, it would find a way to advance his greater agenda.
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It's not an asshole genie. It's not a benevolent one either. It simply imparts Odyssial's will and drive unto the wielder, with all the consequences that implies.
It only cares about realizing Odyssial's end goals, no matter the cost. If you're alright with Moon being influenced by something like that, well, that's fine. Maybe it's better for her to be turned to our cause like this, if we continue to involve her in our life.
Personally, I'm a bit uncomfortable with such manipulation, though I can see the appeal.
 
Wander said:
[X] Persuasion
-[X] Give Moon Ambition.

I think people have been making some very silly arguments as far as not giving people Ambition goes. One of the swords primary functions is to empower people to further Odyssial's agenda. As people have been saying, if we wanted a sword that made us just a personal combat monster, we should have gotten Away.

By giving Moon Ambition we get another solar-tier combatant on our side, which is a really big deal.
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The Sword would do more good in Ulyssian hands. more than Ambition in Zao hands. more than Ambition in Moon hands.

That why It's staying in Ulyssian hands. We kinda need to get Strong FAST. Ambition will make Ulyssian grow stronger faster.
 
Unelemental said:
It's not an asshole genie. It's not a benevolent one either. It simply imparts Odyssial's will and drive unto the wielder, with all the consequences that implies.
It only cares about realizing Odyssial's end goals, no matter the cost. If you're alright with Moon being influenced by something like that, well, that's fine. Maybe it's better for her to be turned to our cause like this, if we continue to involve her in our life.
Personally, I'm a bit uncomfortable with such manipulation, though I can see the appeal.
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Fair enough. I think the key element in this is that we would be bequeathing it to her along with full knowledge of what it is and what it does. If we were handing it off to a relative stranger, that would be underhanded (also inadvisable), but Moon has always admired our Ambition. Now she can have it. Literally.
 
There is one final angle to consider. Do you want Moon to have her every action bent, knowingly or not, to Odyssial's advantage? That is not something one should undertake lightly, or without due consideration. It is not malicious. But it serves only one master, and he does not share power unless it benefits him.

That is not to say that it robs her of free will, or the power to choose. But it will find a way to benefit Odyssial, no matter what its wielder chooses.

Of course, it's not impossible to retain yourself or even wrest control of Ambition, it's only marginally more difficult than time travel and true resurrection, as long as Odyssial isn't around in sufficient capacity to crush you.
 
Usernames said:
That why It's staying in Ulyssian hands. We kinda need to get Strong FAST. Ambition will make Ulyssian grow stronger faster.
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We're Sesus Ulyssian with a Solar Exaltation. We will become strong, and we will do so quickly, whether or not we are wielding Ambition. It may impart a drive for excellence... but remember, we are the example which Ambition was forged to imitate. Moon needs it, we don't. Simple as that.

Besides, speaking of strength... this debacle has likely generated an unholy amount of experience.
 
Rihaku said:
There is one final angle to consider. Do you want Moon to have her every action bent, knowingly or not, to Odyssial's advantage? That is not something one should undertake lightly, or without due consideration. It is not malicious. But it serves only one master, and he does not share power unless it benefits him.

That is not to say that it robs her of free will, or the power to choose. But it will find a way to benefit Odyssial, no matter what its wielder chooses.

Of course, it's not impossible to retain yourself or even wrest control of Ambition, it's only marginally more difficult than time travel and true resurrection, as long as Odyssial isn't around in sufficient capacity to crush you.
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Isn't that going against your previous statement that Odyssial and Ulyssian are essentially the same person? Or is it going to assume it knows your will better then you do?
 
Rihaku said:
There is one final angle to consider. Do you want Moon to have her every action bent, knowingly or not, to Odyssial's advantage? That is not something one should undertake lightly, or without due consideration. It is not malicious. But it serves only one master, and he does not share power unless it benefits him.
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So long as she accepts it knowingly, I am absolutely fine with it.
 
Rihaku said:
There is one final angle to consider. Do you want Moon to have her every action bent, knowingly or not, to Odyssial's advantage? That is not something one should undertake lightly, or without due consideration. It is not malicious. But it serves only one master, and he does not share power unless it benefits him.

That is not to say that it robs her of free will, or the power to choose. But it will find a way to benefit Odyssial, no matter what its wielder chooses.

Of course, it's not impossible to retain yourself or even wrest control of Ambition, it's only marginally more difficult than time travel and true resurrection, as long as Odyssial isn't around in sufficient capacity to crush you.
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Man, how can you make something so sinister sounds so awesome ?
 
Unelemental said:
It only cares about realizing Odyssial's end goals, no matter the cost.
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It is this bit which is the real question - who decides the cost? The Sword or the Wielder? Because advancing his greater agenda is a very general goal, and doesn't necessarily require you to go full Heartless. If she were to dedicate herself to assisting his goals without being a dick, what would the sword do? Grant her the unstoppable will to continue along that course, or mindfuck her into ignoring her qualms and just doing what the sword says?

Because I don't think expediency was ever mentioned with respect to the Sword. Just perpetuity. Whatever she does will always be working towards those goals, but that doesn't inform how she does it.


Usernames said:
Ambition will make Ulyssian grow stronger faster.
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Why? It makes him stronger immediately, in that he is using an awesome fucking sword with badass abilities. But it doesn't affect his growth rate. He already possess the will the sword would impart.
 
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Van Ropen said:
It is this bit which is the real question - who decides the cost? The Sword or the Wielder? Because advancing his greater agenda is a very general goal, and doesn't necessarily require you to go full Heartless. If she were to dedicate herself to assisting his goals without being a dick, what would the sword do? Grant her the unstoppable will to continue along that course, or mindfuck her into ignoring her qualms and just doing what the sword says?

Because I don't think expediency was ever mentioned with respect to the Sword. Just perpetuity. Whatever she does will always be working towards those goals.



Why? It makes him stronger immediately, in that he is using an awesome fucking sword with badass abilities. But it doesn't affect his growth rate. He already possess the will the sword would impart.
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One more charm for free for each essense level. He should have a level 2 charm and a level 3 charm if he got Ambition.
 
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