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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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[X] Confront the Daemon with what you know, with things of this world and this time. the future is not written and he a mere phantasm.
-[X] I know not of this Imperium you speak of and in truth, care not, the reasons to oppose that which you call master might-have-been-shade of my son is that it is opposed to all life, from the smallest seed to the greatest leviathan. The spirits themselves defy you and those you name Truth. It is only by worming your way into hearts and souls like a parasite that you endure. If your masters are so concerned with freedom, so inevitable why did they cling to Dharok so desperately, so greedily? Be the rule of one man or one state flawed men can break it and build anew, but be your masters triumphant there can be no improvement, only the false change of eternal transformation as the yapping of dogs is to the speech of men
 
[X] Confront the Daemon and The Raven with what you know and call them both out
--[X] I do not know of this Imperium and I care not, you both may believe in what you do is best for humanity and the galaxy, but despite your difference you both run on the same tiresome theme.
Supermacist megalomaniacs hellbent on twisting the galaxy in their own grotesque image: doesn't matter if it is tyranny by anarchy or by oppression, by corruption or destruction of all that dares to be different not fitting your narrow-minded view of the cosmos or not bend the knee just because, both sides are the same sides of the same coin.
How long until either side destroy everything that dares to be unique and have all things in your hegemony of stagnation where all things are doomed to rot? How long will either side see the folly of their petty discrimination mirroring each other's hate and little hearts until the galaxy burns?
 
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Lord4StarCommand said:
[X] Confront the Daemon and The Raven with what you know and call them both out
--[X] I do not know of this Imperium and I care not, you both may believe in what you do is best for humanity and the galaxy, but despite your difference you both run on the same tiresome theme.
Supermacist megalomaniacs hellbent on twisting the galaxy in their own grotesque image: doesn't matter if it is tyranny by anarchy or by oppression, by corruption or destruction of all that dares to be different not fitting your narrow-minded view of the cosmos or not bend the knee just because, both sides are the same sides of the same coin.
How long until either side destroy everything that dares to be unique and have all things in your hegemony of stagnation where all things stagnate and rot? How long will either side see the folly of their petty discrimination mirroring each other's hate and little hearst until the galaxy burns?
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The Imperium cannot destroy as thoroughly as Chaos, it lacks the tools. There are democracies in the IoM, there are planets with decent standards of living, they are the exceptions slipping through the cracks but they exist. There is nothing of the sort in the Eye of Terror, only screams.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Imperium cannot destroy as thoroughly as Chaos, it lacks the tools. There are democracies in the IoM, there are planets with decent standards of living, they are the exceptions slipping through the cracks but they exist. There is nothing of the sort in the Eye of Terror, only screams.
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And there are cultural genocides, xenocide, xenophobia, fascism, slavery, discrimination, technophobia, brainwashing, police brutality, supermacy, violation of basic rights, suppression and oppression of free will, tyranny, corruption and literal genocides.
For every Ork warband the Imperium fought they destroyed 10 Diasporex for not being "pure human" enough.

Just because one is less bad than the other does not make it good and just because one is efficient about it does not make it justifiable.


And before anyone say "Well 30k Imperium was less bad" here is a list of civilizations destroyed by Imperium in both 30k and 40k for petty prejudice.
 
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Lord4StarCommand said:
And there are cultural genocides, xenocide, xenophobia, fascism, tyranny, corruption and literal genocides.
For every Ork warband the Imperium fought they destroyed 10 Diasporex.

Just because one is less bad than the other does not make it good and just because one is efficient about it does not make it justifiable.
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Yes, but that is not the point I'm making. Chaos due to its soul deep warping of those it touches is infinitely worse than the Imperium as it is infinitely worse than any other system of mortal governance. When set against Chaos and Chaos alone the IoM are the good guys, any mortals ever are the good guys. Chaos Lorgar is trying to confuse matters by setting them against non-fascist government as though Chaos would ever produce such.

If we get dragged into an argument on the merits of the IoM we lose since we know nothing about the subject.
 
Alas, yes. Only in this setting could the Imperium be considered "good guys". Even in 30K, by any sane and objective measure, the Imperium is evil. It is a far lesser evil than Chaos, but it is very much evil in its own right.
 
Honestly, the big thing I want to throw in his face is.

"If the Ruinous Powers represent True Freedom, then tell me, could the Red One choose to embrace peace? Could the Green One choose to heal without twisting them? Could the Blue one cherish a perfect moment and preserve it in their heart? To call a task good and move to another?"

Basically, throw in his face that for all they claim to be Real Freedom and Real Power, that if even the greatest examples of Chaos are utterly incapable of some of the simplest acts and couldn't even choose to do so, how could anything else do any better?

It is that possibility of improving that makes humanity worth protecting, but Chaos can only exist as-is, once one is set on that path, never again can they take another act. Does that make all other acts flawed? Who says this? Chaos? It is clear that many paths exist after all. Even the so-called Changer must Change, he cannot improve, because even should by the grace of chance he achieve perfection, he will have to throw that away because the entire point is random transformation, not evolution with purpose.

It's a false dichotomy, no state is the Human Race, the point is not to protect the Imperium, it is to protect Humanity, and making a flawed empire synonymous with a people false.
 
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Lord4StarCommand said:
And there are cultural genocides, xenocide, xenophobia, fascism, slavery, discrimination, technophobia, supermacy, tyranny, corruption and literal genocides.
For every Ork warband the Imperium fought they destroyed 10 Diasporex for not being "pure human" enough.

Just because one is less bad than the other does not make it good and just because one is efficient about it does not make it justifiable.
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Okay you know what no. I keep hearing this talk it is Lorgar's Fault that the Imperium of man even still exists. It was in its Inception an atheist but xenocidal state. It was an Empire the second the emperor fell to Horus should have been the "To the strongest" moment for the Imperium of man you know why it wasn't because the Lorgar with his fake and shit religion caused a massive turn now the empire wasn't just xenocidal now it was actively genocidal on top of being religiously intolerant of all other forms of life and other humans ways of life. Also that figure for how many humans civilizations they fought is horseshit because we know the Orcs at that point were literally on the verge of becoming Krorcs and the old night had stripped thousands of Worlds of their civilizations alien and otherwise. The dominant species before the old night was the eldari. There's no way for that to be 10 Diasporax because that would require 10 multi species states with space capabilities to exist when we know that's just not the case.

To unambiguously attempt to place any version of the Imperial man on the same level as chaos is to declare that humans even at their most dim and unlightened are on the same level as Soul eating demons and you can take that as you will but I refuse.
 
Degorium said:
Okay you know what no. I keep hearing this talk it is Lorgar's Fault that the Imperium of man even still exists. It was in its Inception an atheist but xenocidal state. It was an Empire the second the emperor fell to Horus should have been the "To the strongest" moment for the Imperium of man you know why it wasn't because the Lorgar with his fake and shit religion caused a massive turn now the empire wasn't just xenocidal now it was actively genocidal on top of being religiously intolerant of all other forms of life and other humans ways of life. Also that figure for how many humans civilizations they fought is horseshit because we know the Orcs at that point were literally on the verge of becoming Krorcs and the old night had stripped thousands of Worlds of their civilizations alien and otherwise. The dominant species before the old night was the eldari. There's no way for that to be 10 Diasporax because that would require 10 multi species states with space capabilities to exist when we know that's just not the case.

To unambiguously attempt to place any version of the Imperial man on the same level as chaos is to declare that humans even at their most dim and unlightened are on the same level as Soul eating demons and you can take that as you will but I refuse.
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The bones of the Imperium were still laid down in the Great Crusade. Maybe the Emperor intended to change things once he could pivot from a wartime environment to a peacetime, but we'll never know for sure, so all we can see is the inertia brought on by his decisions because nobody dares step too far away from what he's dictated.

But the entire point is "You will never, ever get to see what the Emperor's perspective is, because we want to maintain a degree of ambiguity whether he's History's Greatest Tyrant or a Byronic Hero who was Doing The Best He Could with a shit sandwich."
 
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Alectai said:
The bones of the Imperium were still laid down in the Great Crusade. Maybe the Emperor intended to change things once he could pivot from a wartime environment to a peacetime, but we'll never know for sure, so all we can see is the inertia brought on by his decisions because nobody dares step too far away from what he's dictated.
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That quote is from Alexander the Great to his generals after he falls. The death of the emperor without logar's religion should have been the end of the empire for all intents and purposes maybe Terra would have been important because they would have tried to keep the astronomicon but it would have been a war whether it's between the primarchs the administratum or the mechanicus for enough people with significant enough power bases to make a claim for the throne of the empire and the fact of the matter is without logar's religion there's no way for the Empire to survive even the next Century much less 10,000.
 
Sticking with:

[X] The Imperium may be a failure, but it's a human failure and so can be redeemed. What will be left of humanity after Chaos is done with it can't be.
- [X] "And yet, in a merely human tyranny, the hope for reform and a brighter future remains alive. The human spirit remains unbroken. Just because men have failed before does not mean they cannot succeed in future, and Corax, you have fought to keep that possibility alive. That alone is a victory. The enlightenment offered by the Chaos Gods is false, but that does not mean that true enlightenment is impossible, and the present Lorgar is living proof. Mankind can restore itself to harmony, both now and in the future, as long as the traps of the Ruinous Powers are seen for what they are."

As it's actually an attempt to deal with the problem at hand, that Daemon Lorgar is getting to Corax. We need to offer him some hope that he's not laboured for naught.

DragonParadox said:
There is no meaningful way he can prove his external reality under the rules we are operating under. The best he can do is peacock about how great and mighty and eternal Chaos is again... and I am counting on that. 😈
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He's a Daemon Lorgar possibly with supercharged Mythos social powers. I would be unsurprised if he has a power that makes people know that he's telling the truth.
 
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Alratan said:
Sticking with:

[X] The Imperium may be a failure, but it's a human failure and so can be redeemed. What will be left of humanity after Chaos is done with it can't be.
- [X] "And yet, in a merely human tyranny, the hope for reform and a brighter future remains alive. The human spirit remains unbroken. Just because men have failed before does not mean they cannot succeed in future, and Corax, you have fought to keep that possibility alive. That alone is a victory. The enlightenment offered by the Chaos Gods is false, but that does not mean that true enlightenment is impossible, and the present Lorgar is living proof. Mankind can restore itself to harmony, both now and in the future, as long as the traps of the Ruinous Powers are seen for what they are."

As it's actually an attempt to deal with the problem at hand, that Daemon Lorgar is getting to Corax
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The above does not absolve Corax in any way because of course Corax is guilty so I can't see how it would make him feel better.
 
DragonParadox said:
The above does not absolve Corax in any way because of course Corax is guilty so I can't see how it would make him feel better.
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It helps Corax because it says that because of him humanity still has the chance to make a better choice. The Imperium may be fundamentally flawed but humanity is still human with all the good and bad involved. He's not won, but he's ensured that humanity hasn't lost for good.
 
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[X] Confront the Daemon with what you know, with things of this world and this time. the future is not written and he a mere phantasm.
-[X] I know not of this Imperium you speak of and in truth, care not, the reasons to oppose that which you call master might-have-been-shade of my son is that it is opposed to all life, from the smallest seed to the greatest leviathan. The spirits themselves defy you and those you name Truth. It is only by worming your way into hearts and souls like a parasite that you endure. If your masters are so concerned with freedom, so inevitable why did they cling to Dharok so desperately, so greedily? Be the rule of one man or one state flawed men can break it and build anew, but be your masters triumphant there can be no improvement, only the false change of eternal transformation as the yapping of dogs is to the speech of men
 
Alratan said:
It helps Corax because it says that because of him humanity still has the chance to make a better choice. The Imperium may be fundamentally flawed but humanity is still human with all the good and bad involved. He's not won, but he's ensured that humanity hasn't lost for good.
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Well yeah, but not because the Imperium exists. Corax crimes still exist regardless of if there is hope or not. It does not invalidate any of Chaos Lorgar's statements because he was not trying to make the case that the Imperium left no room for change or hope, it is just that Chaos Lorgar thinks Chaos is hope.

Us replacing 'Chaos' with 'reform' in that equation does not change anything unless you can prove that without the Imperium Chaos would have won and there would be no possibility of reform. To win the argument from Corax's position one would have to prove that the Imperium was necessary which it was not. Either way it is not an argument we can make because IC we do not know what the hell an 'Imperium' is.
 
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One wishes that this Lorgar did know enough about the situation to likewise call Corax to account for his crimes. The idea of absolving him or defending the Imperium is nauseating on principle. Unfortunately, when the other side of the argument is Chaos, well, lesser evil and all that, but one must remember that it is still evil.
 
[X] Confront the Daemon with what you know, with things of this world and this time. the future is not written and he a mere phantasm.
-[X] I know not of this Imperium you speak of and in truth, care not, the reasons to oppose that which you call master might-have-been-shade of my son is that it is opposed to all life, from the smallest seed to the greatest leviathan. The spirits themselves defy you and those you name Truth. It is only by worming your way into hearts and souls like a parasite that you endure. If your masters are so concerned with freedom, so inevitable why did they cling to Dharok so desperately, so greedily? Be the rule of one man or one state flawed men can break it and build anew, but be your masters triumphant there can be no improvement, only the false change of eternal transformation as the yapping of dogs is to the speech of men
 
[X] Confront the Daemon with what you know, with things of this world and this time. the future is not written and he a mere phantasm.
-[X] I know not of this Imperium you speak of and in truth, care not, the reasons to oppose that which you call master might-have-been-shade of my son is that it is opposed to all life, from the smallest seed to the greatest leviathan. The spirits themselves defy you and those you name Truth. It is only by worming your way into hearts and souls like a parasite that you endure. If your masters are so concerned with freedom, so inevitable why did they cling to Dharok so desperately, so greedily? Be the rule of one man or one state flawed men can break it and build anew, but be your masters triumphant there can be no improvement, only the false change of eternal transformation as the yapping of dogs is to the speech of men
 
Yzarc said:
The Great Crusade was a beacon of hope, a chance to bring order to the chaos of the galaxy. The Emperor's vision was one of unity, of humanity standing together against the darkness. You turned your back on that vision, consumed by your own ambitions."
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Dont want to agree with a chaos cultist but this is bullshit.
 
Acolyte said:
Dont want to agree with a chaos cultist but this is bullshit.
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I do feel need to point this out it's not really. It's a really Rosy view I will say that but it's not bullshit. At that point the Orcs were infinitely on the rise the Dark Eldar were coming out of their hole chaos demons were abound because of the eye of Terror and human worlds were suffering the wounds of old night. For every World they needed to bring into compliance by force there are probably 10 they took by word if we take Sanguinius and Fulgrim and Magnus and Corax and Vulcan and Guilliman rate of bring in worlds into account. I say this conservatively by the way because the great Crusade lasted 200 and some years and they took thousands of worlds all together there were 20 18 of them but if they needed to ruthlessly kill planet after planet or fight war after war after War there's no way Magnus could have taken any world he was stuck with a thousand Marines at his start. Robute Guilliman is an administrator and Planet ruler to begin just setting up a proper trade deal with the Ultramar sector would be enough to get most planets on board. Sanguinius is a known Diplomat who is specifically known for doing that. Corax while he's probably not as diplomatic as his brothers or as administratively focused I'm sure there are tons of tyrant governments that arose during old night that he's perfectly willing to put down.
 
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Degorium said:
It's a really Rosy view I will say that but it's not bullshit.
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Big E in a nutshell:

"I wanted to unite my people, extinguishing alien threats such as Orks, Nephilim and Drukhari in the process so as Chaos"(What he preached) vs "I want to murder anything non-human, regardless of their relationships with humans or threat level and wilfully ignore Chaos like it doesn't exist."(What he actually did)
 
DragonParadox said:
Well yeah, but not because the Imperium exists. Corax crimes still exist regardless of if there is hope or not. It does not invalidate any of Chaos Lorgar's statements because he was not trying to make the case that the Imperium left no room for change or hope, it is just that Chaos Lorgar thinks Chaos is hope.

Us replacing 'Chaos' with 'reform' in that equation does not change anything unless you can prove that without the Imperium Chaos would have won and there would be no possibility of reform. To win the argument from Corax's position one would have to prove that the Imperium was necessary which it was not. Either way it is not an argument we can make because IC we do not know what the hell an 'Imperium' is.
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You don't need to prove that CHaos would have won without the Imperium, just that there would have been a real risk of it.

And, of course, Chaos isn't the only threat. A humanity exterminated by resurgent orks is also worse off than the Imperium.

Degorium said:
I do feel need to point this out it's not really. It's a really Rosy view I will say that but it's not bullshit. At that point the Orcs were infinitely on the rise the Dark Eldar were coming out of their hole chaos demons were abound because of the eye of Terror and human worlds were suffering the wounds of old night.
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The Dark Eldar won't exist until a thousand years after the Heresy happens.
 
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