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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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After this, whatever happens, I think we should run down the Covenant priests as they travel back through the desert and kill them.

Tzaphquiel said:
Hm, Martial Arts would fall under Close Combat, then, seeing as it is 3, and Fan Morgal's Martial Arts level was stated to be 3. 14 XP will need to be diverted to raise Close Combat to 5, then. It will be needed to help Lorgar reach the stem of the Perfect Blossom.
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It's annoying, but it's probably worth it in the long run.
 
Why didn't we argue that we can give power too, at much more reasonable rates than Chaos? That is highly relevant info.

Also, speaking of marital arts, could a space marine be taught celestial martial arts in the same way the Immaculates do it?
 
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[X] Lorgar risks it

I do not expect this to work, it would be nice it it did, but that's a bonus. On the other hand I do think that it is important for Lorgar to try. His power is made of his own legend, this is a chance to grow that legend, specifically the Human part of it that he has not pushed yet.

Robotninja said:
Why didn't we argue that we can give power too, at much more reasonable rates than Chaos? That is highly relevant info.

Also, speaking of marital arts, could a space marine be taught celestial martial arts in the same way the Immaculates do it?
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Because we cannot raise the dead, that is what he has been promised and we can't do that, that is one of the few hard and fast rules in Exalted. Now mind it is not a rule in EXvsWoD, because it was a limitation of Creation not the Exalted so who knows in this version of reality we might be ale to raise the dead in the abstract, but we most certainly cannot raise who he wants from the dead. She is gone, into the Warp and if she is lucky oblivion.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Because we cannot raise the dead, that is what he has been promised and we can't do that, that is one of the few hard and fast rules in Exalted. Now mind it is not a rule in EXvsWoD, because it was a limitation of Creation not the Exalted so who knows in this version of reality we might be ale to raise the dead in the abstract, but we most certainly cannot raise who he wants from the dead. She is gone, into the Warp and if she is lucky oblivion.
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Yeah, that is valid, but I mean the whole you are weak and Chaos gives me power to unite people by force thing he was saying. Because we can hand out dark and terrible power as well.
 
[x] Lorgar risks it

We ball? We ball.
Because heck, "redeems a Chaos Champion" has to be worth something for his mythos, right?
 
Given Lorgar's enlightenment from having his Essence awakened, he already knows all about the Immaterium, the ancient past and how there was once harmony between Immaterium and Materium, that it was meant to be thus, how it was all shattered.

The Emperor will not be able to hide anything about Chaos from Lorgar. Lorgar practically knows it all by now. Granted, Mr. I am Right, Do as I Say, I Know Best may not react well, but if the right cards are played, there may not be much that the Emperor can do about it.
 
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Robotninja said:
Also, speaking of marital arts, could a space marine be taught celestial martial arts in the same way the Immaculates do it?
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Theoretically I could see it being possible to develop a Terrestrial Martial Arts Charm or Style reflecting the archetype of a Primarch that mastering inherently makes it easier for one of their space marines to meet the qualification for learning CMA, as they remould themselves and their essence in the process.



DragonParadox said:
Because we cannot raise the dead, that is what he has been promised and we can't do that, that is one of the few hard and fast rules in Exalted. Now mind it is not a rule in EXvsWoD, because it was a limitation of Creation not the Exalted so who knows in this version of reality we might be ale to raise the dead in the abstract, but we most certainly cannot raise who he wants from the dead. She is gone, into the Warp and if she is lucky oblivion.
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In 40K I'd imagine you can raise the dead. Dark Eldar do it all the time. For a non-psyker humans you need to snatch the soul before it disintegrates or for a psyker human before a daemon eats it, as unlike Eldar their souls are fragile.

We'd need to timetravel back to the moment of her death via the Warp; snatch her soul and then stuff it in a new body.
Tzaphquiel said:
The Emperor will not be able to hide anything about Chaos from Lorgar. Lorgar practically knows it all by now. Granted, Mr. I am Right, Do as I Say, I Know Best may not react well, but if the right cards are played, there may not be much that the Emperor can do about it.
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Hopefully by the time he arrives we'll know enough to advise Lorgar to keep his mouth shut on awkward topics and play a long game.
 
[X] Lorgar does not risk it

If Chaos doesn't recognize the dangers than better to Marshall our military and learn Celestial Art.
 
The big question we have, I think, is how Fan and his nephew, rather than Lorgar, are going to survive hundreds of pissed off chaos warriors.

I assume that Lorgar is still in debt to us from becoming Enlightened. Otherwise we could do something like grant him five dots in photokinesis. That's not a canon psyker discipline; but psyker powers can explicitly do just about anything, and there are some powers that can make and control light, so a souped up version of that could be possible.

Having Lorgar being able to suddenly fire lots of laser beams at the enemy with his mind would make this much more survivable.

Photoknesis is my pick for an offensive psyker power for Lorgar because it's more likely to be synergistic with his Mythos, multiplying his success and so his likely accuracy and damage output.

For Dharok, if Lorgar cleanses him of Chaos taint, we can offer him power in return for an oath to stay clean. We can't offer much though. 30XP doesn't go that far. I wonder if it would be possible to get a VEE extension that allows for multiple uses in return for either greater or longer lasting consequences. Cecelyne is the Yozi of arbitrary rules, so perhaps something like Geas, stacking up rules that someone must follow forever or lose soul points in return for extra applications of VEE.

For Lorgar himself, we should remember that we're very squishy. Fortunately, CCC should easily apply to attempts to get out of here, either by carving our way out with MHM or by trying to talk our way out.

There's also another option that the third part of CCC may make possible, which allows you to generate effectively arbitrary numbers of successes. That's to do something like strike the sand hard enough with MHM to raise a temporary sandstorm as cover. We'd need to grant Dhakor Transcendent Desert Creature, but then he should be immune to the environment effects of the sandstorm, like Fan and Lorgar, and they can then escape while the chaos warriors are blinded and being damaged by the flying sand.

Edit: Acrually, I realise that I'm trying too hard. The Chaos Warriors won't have Shaping Defences. We can make a Mass Social Attack on the group to make them renounce the Chaos Gods and repent. The third option for CCC means we'll succeed at doing so. It might require twenty or thirty or forty successes to hit that threshold, but it doesn't matter. CCC would give us that many plus one.

Edit 2: Fan should possibly do that first, using a Mass Social Attack on the entire group including Dhorkar, which Lorgar follows up on by trying to cleanse the Corruption.

Edit 3: Although as a Chaos Champion, he may have Shaping defences, which CCC is blocked by but Lorgar's True Faih isn't, so probably still best to wait.
 
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Prospalz said:
This thread is ambitious asf.

Not to imply that's bad.
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To be fair, we have a charm that allows us to succeed at anything we try to escape confinement unless we're opposed by someone with defences against reality warping, and also have an artifact that says we're always trying to escape confinement.

When facing even empowered mortals like chaos warriors, it makes us very, very unfair, in a pretty Ebon Dragon-ish way.

The last thing you want to try and do is trap or imprison an Infernal with CCC, as it massively empowers them.

If we didn't have the tattoos, we'd have to have Lorgar try to save Dhokar, I now realise. Otherwise, they'd just let us go. We'd need them to try to stop us leaving before we could use CCC to try to convert them.

The artifacts mean we don't need to wait, but even without them we could pull off this kind of trick. Converting your jailers to your cause is right in the core use of the charm, it's not a stretch at all. The fact that they're all here in one place and can hear us at once just makes it a better opportunity for us.

I genuinely didn't realise how astonishingly amazing CCC would make us at social combat. We're arguably even better than Lorgar. There can be social challenges too hard for him, or he can just perform below his usual standards. With the third feature of CCC, we can't, we always succeed, no matter how difficult it is.

We'd be absolutely terrifying against worlds with broadcast media or information networks.

We're also a terrifying foe for the Covenant. As we can manufacture loudspeakers, any army they can send against us will rapidly become our army, and once we reach their cities we can convert their population from under them. Even if the priests have Shaping defences to prevent conversion, the rank and file won't.
 
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Just be warned.

Social combat is NOT mindcontrol.

Take the last update. Lorgar got a bunch of successes to try and turn him but failed because he had an intimacy for his mother and spent a Willpower to resist.

True Faith's repent power and outright Mindcontrol is the only way around people spending Willpower to resist social actions.
 
Thinking in terms of Mythos, if Lorgar converts a Chaos Champion and we then follow up on that by converting hundreds of Chaos Warriors as a Shaping effect, I wonder what lesson he'll learn.

What we're doing isn't quite mind control, but it's altering reality so we come up with and deliver a speech so incredibly, unbelievably convincing that it inspires the listeners to throw off their mental chains and renounce the Ruinous Powers, returning to walk in the light.

Say such a speech would normally require twenty or thirty successes for a character to make, in order to simultaneously convince so many people to make such a profound change and inspire them to have the mental strength to throw off the mental influences of chaos. That means it would be a speech 'worth' twenty or thirty one successes, so one based on incredible, post-human skill.

Hearing that kind of spectacularly good speech could itself have an impact on Lorgar, being a social primary primary, so he might learn from hearing whatever techniques we shaped ourselves to be able to use.
 
Yzarc said:
Just be warned.

Social combat is NOT mindcontrol.

Take the last update. Lorgar got a bunch of successes to try and turn him but failed because he had an intimacy for his mother and spent a Willpower to resist.

True Faith's repent power and outright Mindcontrol is the only way around people spending Willpower to resist social actions.
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That's true, but I think the Exalted conceit is that spending Willpower to resist social combat is something that's usually the kind of thing that only named characters usually do.

Dhorkar might be able to resist, but I think his Chaos Warrior followers are much less likely to be able to. Particularly not en masse.

Obviously, that may not be the case here, but these Tribesmen are probably recently converted as unlikely to have deep Intimacies of reverence to the Chaos Gods.

There's also the question about whether the Shaping that CCC does in the third option that ensures a action is successful warps reality to stop people spending Willpower.
 
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To clarify, CCC does not add anything but completes an instant actions as a Shaping action.

So if you cannot convince them, you cannot do so with CCC.

So you are right back where you started.

With regards to hhe Warriors, they have been swayed by offers of power and prestige.

Their very souls have been coloured by Chaos. So they will spend Willpower unless you offer them something they really want above all others.
Alratan said:
That's true, but I think the Exalted conceit is that spending Willpower to resist social combat is something that's usually the kind of thing that only named characters usually do.

Dhorkar might be able to resist, but I think his Chaos Warrior followers are much less likely to be able to. Particularly not en masse.

Obviously, that may not be the case here.
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I am using a homebrew System where you can't convince someone to die for you with an Excellency alone.

You can do impressive things in social but max successes will not result in mindcontrol.
 
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Social Actions
  • Informational


    • Social​

    Intimacies

    A character's Intimacies define what they care about and what drives them. It can be a person, a belief or a philosophy. Characters start the game with one Archetype, two Major and three Minor Intimacies. A Character can only ever have one Archetype.

    Minor: Minor Intimacies are ones that the character cares about but does not factor into every decision she makes. Reduce or add 1 difficulty if the action taken supports or is against a minor intimacy.

    Major: Major Intimacies are important enough to always be on the Exalt's mind, as she considers them before making any major decision. Reduce or add 2 difficulties if the action taken supports or is against a Major intimacy.

    Archetype: This is less what they care about but rather who they are. This is your character's Nature and reveals much about a character's personality and will dictate how they are played. Reduce or add 3 difficulties if the action taken supports or is against the Archetype.

    Social Actions

    Instill/Inspire/Threaten: Roll Social Attribute + Presence/Socialize at the difficulty of the opponent's (Willpower rating). If successful, Instill a Minor Intimacy in a Character.

    Emotions: Sometimes people can inspire emotions in people. These are treated as a temporary Minor Intimacy that lasts for successes days. They cannot be made permanent but an intimacy based on it can. For example, fear cannot be made an intimacy, but using that fear as a base, "I fear PC" can be Instilled and it can be made permanent with the support of a Major Intimacy.

    Change intimacy: Strengthening a Minor Intimacy, or weakening a Major Intimacy. As Instill but must be supported by a Major intimacy or the Archetype.

    Persuade: Convincing a character to perform a Task. This MUST be supported by intimacies or an Archetype.

    Minor Tasks: Minor Intimacy allows you to convince them to perform minor tasks. Things that take longer than a scene to complete, if the amount of time needed is not so long as to disrupt the target's life.

    Major Tasks: Major intimacies allow you to convince them to perform major tasks in which they may face risks. Tasks that take extended amounts of time are possible at this level, even if they require a long term commitment such as joining an organization.

    Defining Task: If it fits the Archetype and a Major Intimacy, then they can be convinced to take life altering decisions. Even certain death might not deter them, depending on the Storyteller.

    Read Intent: Roll Mental Attribute + Awareness against a difficulty of the opponent's Social Attribute + Socialize. Degrees of successes reveal things about the character.

    1 - 2 successes: Reveal one Minor intimacy that was invoked while in view of the PC.

    2 - 3 successes: Reveal one Major intimacy that was invoked while in view of the PC.

    5+ Successes: Reveal the Arch type if it was invoked while in view of the PC.

    Invoked here means used to resist or submit to a social influence.

    Spending Willpower

    A Character may always spend Willpower to resist an Instill/Inspire/Threaten action so long as at least one Intimacy is against the influence.

    The same applies to any attempt to weaken or strengthen an Intimacy, though here they need an equal or higher intimacy than the one being altered.
     
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  • Informational
    • Yzarc said:
    To clarify, CCC does not add anything but completes an instant actions as a Shaping action.

    So if you cannot convince them, you cannot do so with CCC.

    So you are right back where you started.

    With regards to hhe Warriors, they have been swayed by offers of power and prestige.

    Their very souls have been coloured by Chaos. So they will spend Willpower unless you offer them something they really want above all others.
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    Hmm. That's much, much less powerful than I thought it was. I thought it was essentially a perfect effect that meant you succeeded at whatever you tried unless you were opposed by someone with Shaping defences. as an example, say you wanted to jump over a wall. It's so high that normally you'd need twenty successes on an Athletics roll to manage it, but you have Physical 2 and one dot in Athletics, so you'd normally never be able to jump that high. However, with this use of CCC you Shape reality so you do jump that high, and when you jump you clear a height equivalent to twenty one successes, sailing over the top of the wall and making a clean landing on the other side.

    Similarly, it would allow a Physical 2 character to punch through a foot thick steel wall as long as that wall wasn't magical, even if that would usually be a feat of strength requiring say fifteen successes.

    That's why it makes explicit note of breaking barriers and adds a limitation around magical materials.
     
    Alratan said:
    That's why it makes explicit note of breaking barriers and adds a limitation around magical materials.
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    I do not read it like that but Fair enough.

    That said, your reading of the charm is just too powerful for the quest.

    I do not mind instant passess but not for impossible rolls.

    It will make many things far too trivial, especially with the tattoos.

    So consider it a house rule that it only works if you can pass the rolls without the charm, because most of the Charm works that way. It just multiplies what is there.
     
    Yzarc said:
    I do not read it like that but Fair enough.

    That said, your reading of the charm is just too powerful for the quest.

    I do not mind instant passess but not for impossible rolls.

    It will make many things far too trivial, especially with the tattoos.

    So consider it a house rule that it only works if you can pass the rolls without the charm, because most of the Charm works that way. It just multiplies what is there.
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    Fair enough, it is a big deal when combined with the tattoos (although ironically it would work without the tattoos here). Without them it's very situational and you need to carefully arrange scenarios to use it, like deliberately get yourself captured or trapped, and then your jailers are basically screwed.

    Note that the second way of using the charm would as written allow you to do otherwise impossible things (for you) if you roll more successes than half your pool. If you, say, rolled ten successes on ten dice that would produce twenty successes, which might be quite possible if combined with other difficulty reducers.
     
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    Alratan said:
    Note that the second way of using the charm would as written allow you to do otherwise impossible things (for you) if you roll more successes than half your pool. If you, say, rolled ten successes on ten dice that would produce twenty successes, which might be quite possible if combined with other difficulty reducers.
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    To clarify, I do not mind a thin man lifting a massive boulder with the use if the charm.

    What I do mind is you punching reality so hard, the Emperor on Terra feels it.

    So impossible, in this context, means something outright and blatantly impossible.

    Something that no amount of successes can achieve. You can pull off impressive and improbable things but not outright impossible stuff.

    To add further context, no amount of successes can convince those chaos warriors from spending a Willpower outside of offering them something they really want or mindcontrol.
     
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