Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Fixed that, it was supposed to be black.
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
- Start date
- Crossover
That brings even more question on if other than the main four there is a minor one that also is interested to Lorgar.
Probably it is Malice since he is a minor Chaos god that hates Chaos ironicallly. Or maybe the Arkifane since our tribe is mixing technology with magic and doing insane innvovations.
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What you call rebellion I call freedom - Lorgar probably
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Also, with the Enlightenment and illumination Aspect, Lorgar can actively buy Mythos powers.
I am still working out how much xp to give him and am currently thinking 1 to 1 of what you get, including what you previously got as it makes sense for him to have a power up since he got sucked into the warp had had to debate his way out of it.
I am still working out how much xp to give him and am currently thinking 1 to 1 of what you get, including what you previously got as it makes sense for him to have a power up since he got sucked into the warp had had to debate his way out of it.
Hmm. Not so happy that he ended up with Rebel as a defining characteristic. That isn't something that helps build enduring and productive societies and institutions. Also a pretty serious potential conflict with a father that favours the Principle of Hierarchy and the Lawgiver.
Also, themes of Light and Rebellion - Mythos of Lucifer Morningstar?
Also, themes of Light and Rebellion - Mythos of Lucifer Morningstar?
He's only a rebel if someone attempts to take his freedom
Another big problem. If the entire population of Coichis outside our tribe is corrupted by Chaos and we can't use social attacks to persuade them to repent on any useful scale then we're going to have to completely replace them.
That makes it effectively impossible to become an interstellar power by the time the Emperor arrives. We may be able to kill the tens or hundreds of millions of people who live on the planet in that time, but even with CCP we'll only be able to rebuild a population of a few tens of thousands, which is massively insufficient to build a civilisation of any technological sophistication.
Nowhere is that specified. A rebel doesn't have to have a cause.
That makes it effectively impossible to become an interstellar power by the time the Emperor arrives. We may be able to kill the tens or hundreds of millions of people who live on the planet in that time, but even with CCP we'll only be able to rebuild a population of a few tens of thousands, which is massively insufficient to build a civilisation of any technological sophistication.
Nowhere is that specified. A rebel doesn't have to have a cause.
I mean we are already playing an Infernal Exalted, it would be awkward if Lorgar himself were also inclined to rule.
Just because you worship Chaos does not mean you are corrupted by Chaos to the extent of actual blessed warriors. We can probably convince the local turnip farmer to stop saying one set of funny prayers in place of another.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
A few things.
Just because a chaos champion said it does not mean it is true.
The planet was already full of chaos worshipers. Covenant worshiped a lot less horrific version of the faith already.
With regards to Archetype, rebel is a tool to be used. It does not force or influence him to rebel but makes rebelling easier.
Like, in the Warp, in the heart of the domain of Chaos, he rebelled against his fate. Note how he was called the Arch-Priest. How he denied what the Gods wanted from him.
- Location
- Arcadia
It is good that Lorgar gained the Rebel Aspect. It would help to prevent him from becoming a blindly faithful dog of the Emperor.
It might be likened to Morgana from Persona 5, the manifestation of the hope of the Collective Unconsciousness, the hope for freedom against oppressive order.
Lorgar could be something similar with the Rebel Aspect. A rebel where the Imperium's oppressive order is concerned.
There is one last matter left for this turn. Lorgar has yet to undertake the vision quest to fully master his psyker abilities. However, after the trial he just endured, this vision quest is practically an afterthought.
It might be likened to Morgana from Persona 5, the manifestation of the hope of the Collective Unconsciousness, the hope for freedom against oppressive order.
Lorgar could be something similar with the Rebel Aspect. A rebel where the Imperium's oppressive order is concerned.
There is one last matter left for this turn. Lorgar has yet to undertake the vision quest to fully master his psyker abilities. However, after the trial he just endured, this vision quest is practically an afterthought.
That actually can be a good thing, rebelling against Chaos and if Big E end up being the supermacist asshole he is in canon we can used that against him as well.
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Him being a rebel is a bigger problem. We can share rulership. Him wanting to rebel against authority is a serious issue, in the when you have hammers everything starts looking like a nail sense.
I was hoping for something like emancipator rather than rebel.
I think that was Chaos playing a long game, pretending. Essentially the population were playing lip service to his beliefs after he 'defeated' the Old Believers but they were actually crypto Chaos worshippers.
I suppose it depends on how you look at it. To my mind Lorgar didn't rebel against the Chaos Gods because they had no authority over him to begin with. He defied them in the heart of their power, but he's no more a rebel than if, say, a soldier is captured dragged in front of an enemy country's king and then publicly refuses a demand to defect. That's not rebellion. If anything that's loyalty to the cause (and person, in us) that he had a pre-existing connection to. Signing up to the Chaos Gods would have the act of rebellion, rebellion against us.
The fact that they were never in charge of him means rebellion is inapplicable. You need that element of first showing subject to someone/thing and then rejecting that and opposing them to make a rebel a rebel. Lorgar doesn't have the first bit, despite the Chaos Gods' ambitions.
The challenge we have is that whether or not the Chaos Champion is lying or exaggerating is very difficult to disprove at scale. With the way social combat works we can't realistically persuade anyone to change their genuinely held beliefs on a large scale, and we can't detect who has what beliefs on a large scale either.
If we know we can't persuade people to change their mind even using superhuman social skills and that those who don't are time bomb for Chaos then the Imperial approach to chaos exposed populations becomes very hard to argue against.
Fortunately this is 40K, the universe is 99% nails by volume. Most beings that have power in this galaxy deserve to be rebelled against. He can just work his way down.
So, the big thing I'm wondering is how we approach planetary conquest now we know that a diplomatic victory isn't possible.
Despite the existence of Nurgle, the Empire does use Virus Bombs, which can be effective against Chaos. We have the serious advantage that we currently have a small population and give people a mutation that makes that immune to a terminal condition. Such as a tailored virus.
We also have a newly minted Genetor. If we can hold off the Chaos Warriors attack for long enough, we could develop a novel highly infectious bio weapon, grant immunity to all our tribe, and then deploy it first on the region around us and then on a planetary scale once we'd developed delivery mechanisms.
The advantage of this is that it doesn't require a large industrial build up from us or many people to deploy to scale up our own forces quickly. The disease will self replicate amongst the enemy once it's introduced by us With the right design so that it doesn't persist in the environment and doesn't have an animal reservoir it would burn itself out and become extinct after its work is done.
This would be a lot cleaner than having to do the job manually.
If Nurgle is a concern, there are other options, although they're probably more expensive and take longer. With a combination of aerial surveillance and psyker powers it's probably possible to identity where the people on the planet are. At that point if we can make a stockpile of something like laser triggered fusion bombs and long ranged cruise missiles then we can probably take them out. Colchis is a pretty low tech world, so they'd don't have theatre shields or decent air defences, so would find it hard to defend against them.
There are only seventy of us, so if we were going to to be able to destroy an enemy which probably literally outnumbers us a million to one or more, we need to do it without actually fighting ourselves, as we're simply outmassed so much that even if our people are invincible super-soldiers it would just take too long.
That's true-ish, but many of those people aren't his boss.
And the challenges he faces from his boss may be best dealt with by reform rather than rebellion.
The problem is that it's not the corruption or the blessing that stops us converting them. It's the fact that they have an Intimacy, so will spend willpower to negate any attempt to. Any genuine worshiper of Chaos will probably have such an Intimacy, and we can't distinguish who does or not on a population scale.
Given that chaos blessed priests can be superhumanly good at building intimacies, even without explicit mind control, we have a real problem on our hands, as we can expect most people to be faithful to that degree.
Despite the existence of Nurgle, the Empire does use Virus Bombs, which can be effective against Chaos. We have the serious advantage that we currently have a small population and give people a mutation that makes that immune to a terminal condition. Such as a tailored virus.
We also have a newly minted Genetor. If we can hold off the Chaos Warriors attack for long enough, we could develop a novel highly infectious bio weapon, grant immunity to all our tribe, and then deploy it first on the region around us and then on a planetary scale once we'd developed delivery mechanisms.
The advantage of this is that it doesn't require a large industrial build up from us or many people to deploy to scale up our own forces quickly. The disease will self replicate amongst the enemy once it's introduced by us With the right design so that it doesn't persist in the environment and doesn't have an animal reservoir it would burn itself out and become extinct after its work is done.
This would be a lot cleaner than having to do the job manually.
If Nurgle is a concern, there are other options, although they're probably more expensive and take longer. With a combination of aerial surveillance and psyker powers it's probably possible to identity where the people on the planet are. At that point if we can make a stockpile of something like laser triggered fusion bombs and long ranged cruise missiles then we can probably take them out. Colchis is a pretty low tech world, so they'd don't have theatre shields or decent air defences, so would find it hard to defend against them.
There are only seventy of us, so if we were going to to be able to destroy an enemy which probably literally outnumbers us a million to one or more, we need to do it without actually fighting ourselves, as we're simply outmassed so much that even if our people are invincible super-soldiers it would just take too long.
That's true-ish, but many of those people aren't his boss.
And the challenges he faces from his boss may be best dealt with by reform rather than rebellion.
The problem is that it's not the corruption or the blessing that stops us converting them. It's the fact that they have an Intimacy, so will spend willpower to negate any attempt to. Any genuine worshiper of Chaos will probably have such an Intimacy, and we can't distinguish who does or not on a population scale.
Given that chaos blessed priests can be superhumanly good at building intimacies, even without explicit mind control, we have a real problem on our hands, as we can expect most people to be faithful to that degree.
[X] Traps and tricks: Choose to lay down traps and other technological devices to weaken and reduce the hordes before they attack next turn.
Sabotage and get them stranded in the desert where unfortunate stuff will happen to them.
We may want to get in touch with our inner ED a bit more before trying the dissent-sowing approach, I think.
Sabotage and get them stranded in the desert where unfortunate stuff will happen to them.
We may want to get in touch with our inner ED a bit more before trying the dissent-sowing approach, I think.
- Location
- Arcadia
As to the vote:
[X] Traps and tricks: Choose to lay down traps and other technological devices to weaken and reduce the hordes before they attack next turn.
Fan Morgal does not exactly have the suitable Charms for infiltration and sowing dissension.
[X] Traps and tricks: Choose to lay down traps and other technological devices to weaken and reduce the hordes before they attack next turn.
Fan Morgal does not exactly have the suitable Charms for infiltration and sowing dissension.
Intimacies are not magic either though, they are just a form of emotional attachment. Sure you can't literally talk someone out of one on the spot, but if we were to take over the educational system well... Let me put it this way, you need one willpower per scene to resist and the average human replenishes one willpower per day.
We don't have the population to do that though. There are seventy people in the tribe. We can't conquer and then run re-education camps for an entire world. Not when the enemy gets a vote too and can have agents running counter-indoctrination efforts.
Remember this isn't anything like a modern world. I think Colchis has medieval levels of tech. There's no mass media or sophisticated government institutions to work through, or the common understanding that can be used to teach people how to operate in those structures.
We're starting from too small a base for this kind of endeavour. Anything we do needs to be done in the context of being outnumbered a million to one.
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I mean if we do not have the population to do that we do not have the population to kill them all either.
Infiltration and education is faster since we can just... Corrupt the Covenant. These people do not have Intimacy (Chaos Undivided) like our friends in atrocity armor, they have Intimacy (The Covenant). Take it over, twist their messaging, purge the ones with actual warp taint, done.
We do have the population to kill them. We just don't have the population to do it by hand one by one. We can build WMD, either bio weapons or fusion bombs, because with them you can kill vast numbers per deployment. Thalassa and Lorgar together can probably do most of the work to build the required weapons without needing anyone else, and the rest of the tribe can simply accelerate the process. If you can sequence DNA for one thing it's not hard to sequenced DNA for a virus, and if you can make a high intensity laser that can do what a las canon can do you're not far off making a fusion bomb.
As for what the Intimacy is, I'd expect the Ruinous Powers to teach reverence to the thirsting gods rather than to a mortal institution. even real life religious institutions try to make people revere the explicit deity by name rather than have them revere the structure of the church, although they may be loyal to that as well. And that structure of the faith will be made up of priests who are committed chaos cultists, who we don't have the population to replace. Teaching them their old gods are evil and must be renounced is not going to be easy, and that's the core of the message. If they're still worshipping their old gods they're still chaos worshippers.
If the leadership of, say, the Catholic Church changes and says, sorry guys, the God of the Bible is actually an evil demiurge, and really you should be a Buddhist, then Catholics are not going to just nod and accept that.
This isn't a subtle matter of doctrine, we need them to fundamentally reject the entire basis of their old religion and replace it with a completely different belief system, otherwise the Chaos Gods retain a back door into their worshippers' souls.
After all, Lorgar tried what you're proposing in canon. It was an abject failure and it turned out that the Covenant never actually turned away from the Chaos Gods, they instead stayed true to their faith and pretended to go along.
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To be clear I do not have a lot of respect for the Emperor's common sense, but I think he would have noticed if the whole population of Cholchis had an intimacy relating to the Thirsting Gods. As for Lorgar managing it in Chaos... he kind of did, he converted them all to Emperor worship, which was indeed upturning the whole basis of their religion. The thing that doomed Lorgar in canon was twofold: the people who kept to the Old Gods were among those closest to him Kor Pheron and company who were able to take advantage of his broken faith in the aftermath of Monarchia and he did not know what Chaos was in canon so he could not look for those hidden cultists who actually did have the touch of the warp about them
As for the example with the Leadership of the Catholic Church... you have just described several quite pervasive medieval heresies and those did not have the leadership of the Church getting behind them and pushing