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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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DragonParadox said:
To be clear I do not have a lot of respect for the Emperor's common sense, but I think he would have noticed if the whole population of Cholchis had an intimacy relating to the Thirsting Gods. As for Lorgar managing it in Chaos... he kind of did, he converted them all to Emperor worship, which was indeed upturning the whole basis of their religion. The thing that doomed Lorgar in canon was twofold: the people who kept to the Old Gods were among those closest to him Kor Pheron and company who were able to take advantage of his broken faith in the aftermath of Monarchia and he did not know what Chaos was in canon so he could not look for those hidden cultists who actually did have the touch of the warp about them

As for the example with the Leadership of the Catholic Church... you have just described several quite pervasive medieval heresies and those did not have the leadership of the Church getting behind them and pushing
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I'm pretty sure the Emperor did exactly that. He turned up at a Colchis where the population privately worshipped the Chaos Gods and publicly worshipped him, rolled his eyes, and moved on, probably thinking that this was going to be a good excuse to purge Lorgar when his usefulness had come to an end. It wasn't that he didn't recognise it, it's just that he was arrogant enough to see the issue as an opportunity. I think he deliberately permitted the flaws that undermined the Primarchs to set them up to fail. He just thought the failure would be on his terms at a time he'd have control over, not the Chaos Gods, and so he'd win and get the Primarchs and space marine legions to kill each other off, leaving him and what he considered 'pure' humanity the victors. His treatment of Lorgar seems tailored to make him rebel, the Emperor just didn't realise how wide the rot had become or how much the Chaos Gods had arranged for all the bombs he'd allowed to be laid to be set off at once. After all, by then he'd already had the Space Wolves purge two Primarchs and their Legions. I think Lorgar was one of the next on the list.

Just as he was probably planning to purge the Navigators when he's conquered the Webway and do the same to the Mechanicus when he didn't need them.

I think there may have been some people on Colchis who genuinely worshipped the Emperor, but for the most part it was simply a con that the Chaos Gods pulled on Lorgar to make him think he'd won, instructing their worshippers to pretend to defect to him so that he thought he'd won. If even those closest to him could deceive him about their beliefs and remain true to their own faith, why would we assume that the rest of the population who he'd mainly interact with via them wouldn't as well? They're the people who'd be giving him reports and in charge of the education and similar institutions. The people he would have genuinely converted would have been the original Imperial Heralds and the people on the worlds he liberated, who didn't have pre-existing conflicting beliefs.

Famously the Catholic Church didn't deal with persistent gnostic heresies by reeducation programmes. They said 'God shall know His own.' and killed everyone in the general vicinity.
 
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Alratan said:
I'm pretty sure the Emperor did exactly that. He turned up at a Colchis where the population privately worshipped the Chaos Gods and publicly worshipped him, rolled his eyes, and moved on, probably thinking that this was going to be a good excuse to purge Lorgar when his usefulness had come to an end. It wasn't that he didn't recognise it, it's just that he was arrogant enough to see the issue as an opportunity. I think he deliberately permitted the flaws that undermined the Primarchs to set them up to fail. He just thought the failure would be on his terms at a time he'd have control over, not the Chaos Gods, and so he'd win and get the Primarchs and space marine legions to kill each other off, leaving him and what he considered 'pure' humanity the victors. His treatment of Lorgar seems tailored to make him rebel, the Emperor just didn't realise how wide the rot had become or how much the Chaos Gods had arranged for all the bombs he'd allowed to be laid to be set off at once. After all, by then he'd already had the Space Wolves purge two Primarchs and their Legions. I think Lorgar was one of the next on the list.

Just as he was probably planning to purge the Navigators when he's conquered the Webway and do the same to the Mechanicus when he didn't need them.

Famously the Catholic Church didn't deal with persistent gnostic heresies by reeducation programmes. They said 'God shall know His own.' and killed everyone in the general vicinity.
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See now you have me at a disadvantage, in that you are making me defend Luscious Locks the Lord of Lightning over on Tera. I do not think the Emperor is that much of an imbecile. What you are describing is not arrogance, arrogance it based on some kind of prior experience where just letting the Chaos worshipers join your gene-altered superspldiers was a good idea.

Tera back before unification has plenty of Chaos cults, Imperial History says psyker cults, but let's be serious the armies of mutants kind of give it away. Old Emps did not just say, sure you lot can join the marines, nor as far as we can tell, did he entirely exterminate whole populations. In fact he attempted reeducation of everyone not a mutant.

So that is basically the position we should take. We are going to start off utterly infiltrated with cultists, but we cannot and should not act like the inquisition does, burning at any hint of Chaos, that is part of the reason why Chaos is such a problem to the modern Imperium, they treat Chaos as more powerful than it is.
 
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Hm, well, regardless, the situation on Colchis is a rather formidable problem. Not insurmountable, but it will not exactly be easy to solve. If the rest of the Exalted Host were present, it would be child's play, but alas, there is only one Solaroid Exalted here to address the matter.
 
DragonParadox said:
See now you have me at a disadvantage, in that you are making me defend Luscious Locks the Lord of Lightning over on Tera. I do not think the Emperor is that much of an imbecile. What you are describing is not arrogance, arrogance it based on some kind of prior experience where just letting the Chaos worshipers join your gene-altered superspldiers was a good idea.

Tera back before unification has plenty of Chaos cults, Imperial History says psyker cults, but let's be serious the armies of mutants kind of give it away. Old Emps did not just say, sure you lot can join the marines, nor as far as we can tell, did he entirely exterminate whole populations. In fact he attempted reeducation of everyone not a mutant.

So that is basically the position we should take. We are going to start off utterly infiltrated with cultists, but we cannot and should not act like the inquisition does, burning at any hint of Chaos, that is part of the reason why Chaos is such a problem to the modern Imperium, they treat Chaos as more powerful than it is.
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I don't think the Emperor was an imbecile. I think he made a misjudgement about the capabilties of the forces of Chaos. Which is fair enough, because up until very recently there were three Chaos Gods not four and Asuryan's Ban on deities interfering in the material world was probably binding those three. It's understandable why he'd underestimate quite how dangerous they'd become compared to how they'd been for the tens of thousands of years he'd previously experienced of them. He just thought he could use them. He was wrong, and he suffered for it.

Mutants don't mean Chaos. You can be mutated and have nothing to do with Chaos. Navigators, for example, often mutate radically without having anything to do with Chaos. As can other psykers. Exposure to a variety of energies in Warhammer is highly mutatative. The mutant breeds be exterminated were usually ones who were powerful enough to be threats, like the cognoscynths.

And I think the Emperor did exterminate whole nations* when unifying the Sol system. We know that unification was followed by a horrific eugenics program to 'purify' humanity of mutations caused by radiation, alchemical, and Warp exposure. A purge of Chaos worshippers could easily have been disguised within that. Who could tell why someone was classified as impure?

The Emperor though, had wider ranging powers than we have, had a millions strong army of supersoldiers to run his post conquest purge and he spent decades doing it.

We have nether the forces not the luxury of time. We have seventy people and a handful of years before we need to be in space.

The Emperor may have tolerated Chaos subversion because he thought he could manage or exploit it. We should know better. Chaos actually is that powerful and dangerous, as the Imperium has learned to its cost by 40K from the brutal lesson of the Emperor underestimating it in 30K.

* Edit: an example is the nation of Orioc who had ruled Antarctica that was entirely exterminated for worshipping a pantheon of 'false gods', ironically by the Imperial Heralds.
 
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Emperor:

"I wanted to unite my people, extinguishing alien threats such as Orks, Nephilim and Drukhari in the process so as Chaos"(What he preached) vs "I want to murder anything non-human, regardless of their relationships with humans or threat level and wilfully ignore Chaos like it doesn't exist."(What he actually did)
 
[X] Traps and tricks: Choose to lay down traps and other technological devices to weaken and reduce the hordes before they attack next turn.
 
There is not much about the Emperor to like, really. For that matter, it is the same for some of the Primarchs like Russ. Unfortunately, outright opposing them is simply not viable, so a longer game is required.
 
[X] Traps and tricks: Choose to lay down traps and other technological devices to weaken and reduce the hordes before they attack next turn.
 
Lord4StarCommand said:
Emperor:

"I wanted to unite my people, extinguishing alien threats such as Orks, Nephilim and Drukhari in the process so as Chaos"(What he preached) vs "I want to murder anything non-human, regardless of their relationships with humans or threat level and wilfully ignore Chaos like it doesn't exist."(What he actually did)
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Although the Horus Heresy writers forget, the Fall of the Eldar happened right at the start of the Great Crusade, and neither the Craftworld nor Dark Eldar exist in anything like their 40K form for thousands of years after the Heresy. All the Eldar are in a total mess and just l picking themselves up after their civilisation imploded and they ceased to be able to use virtually all their inherent abilities and with it the ability to use their psi-tech. During the Great Crusade and Heresy era they're still desperately scrabbling around in the post-apocalyptic ruins trying to avoid having their souls eaten.

The Craftworld Eldar take centuries to invent the paths and spread them and it's similar for the discovery of how to use the Tears of Isha as soul stones to save their souls.

That means that there are no Aspect Warriors, Exarch, Farseers, Avatars of Khaine (as awakening them needs an Exarch), Warlocks, Wraithguard or Wraithlords amongst the Craftworld Eldar until well after the end of the Heresy. The Phoenix Lords are still occupying their planet in the Eye of Terror until well afterwards, only leaving after centuries of siege by daemons.

Similarly, the discovery the Webway Eldar that they're also vulnerable to the Thirst and the discovery of how to use the pain of others to stave it off also takes many, many centuries, before which they stay locked up in the Webway as venturing outside it is dangerous for them, so the Dark Eldar don't exist at all yet.

Tzaphquiel said:
There is not much about the Emperor to like, really. For that matter, it is the same for some of the Primarchs like Russ. Unfortunately, outright opposing them is simply not viable, so a longer game is required.
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That's why we need to avoid giving them excuses. We're already likely to look like a threat, so we don't want additional points of weakness like being infested by Chaos Cultists.
 
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How does Lorgar develop a certain aspect? I mean if Lorgar refused to confront his chaos tainted will he able to get other aspect?

Is there levels of Anathema?
 
Is it possible to build a church based of Lorgar's philosophy? I was thinking about writing a omake series based on Buddhist and Vedantic philosophy as a foundation for Lorgar's Religion. Will it be canon?
 
SouvikKundu said:
Is it possible to build a church based of Lorgar's philosophy? I was thinking about writing a omake series based on Buddhist and Vedantic philosophy as a foundation for Lorgar's Religion. Will it be canon?
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Depends on the omake tbh. Your main problem right now is that you lack manpower. Badly. So building a temple/church would not make sense.

Lorgar's religion is closer to the Imperial Truth then not, and is more a philosophy than a religion at the moment. So it would be less a temple and more a school.
 
SouvikKundu said:
It more about inner Contemplation, cultivation and rejection of any supernatural deities. That makes it compatible with Buddhism.
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it accepts spirits of nature, world souls, machine spirits and that chaos exists

its that it also acknowledges that humans can do many things on their own if given the chance, working with nature, planets and machines to do something is fine but working with chaos often has drawbacks and/or removes human agency/free-will/potential which is a no go for Lorgar's idea of human self-belief and potential, anything that stifles that is bad in his eyes
 
Just use tents. You do not have time to build anything, nor the material or man power.

Depends on the "rejection" part. Lorgar's philosophy does deviate in that it acknowledges powers like spirits and "gods" but not the worship of them.
 
I am thinking about chaos undivided as Mara of Buddhist cosmology and in Buddhism there are four types of Mara which can be used as example of Chaos God equivalent.
 
SouvikKundu said:
I am thinking about chaos undivided as Mara of Buddhist cosmology and in Buddhism there are four types of Mara which can be used as example of Chaos God equivalent.
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Just be warned. The more people acknowledge Chaos, the more power they get. You will need to incorporate Prayer eating to divert Prayers away from Chaos.

Lorgar WILL need Fan's help and that is an action.
 
It more like they exist and they are obstacles for true Enlightenment. For focus will be highlighting their nature and how to overcome them.
 
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