No, I do not want to use that on non-hostile characters. It feels like the kind of bad habit that will bite us in the ass at the worst time. I am fine with reading people with AMI because I do not think anyone really can sense and stop Exalted charms. Telepathy is a lot less reliable, even people with no real psychic power of their own can stop it or at least sense it.
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
- Start date
- Crossover
No, I do not want to use that on non-hostile characters. It feels like the kind of bad habit that will bite us in the ass at the worst time. I am fine with reading people with AMI because I do not think anyone really can sense and stop Exalted charms. Telepathy is a lot less reliable, even people with no real psychic power of their own can stop it or at least sense it.
[X] Plan: I am just a man
-[X] Tiberius, people of Colchis, I am flattered that you could see me as someone worthy of worship. I know you aren't people who would give their faith in any random powerful being, and that is the fact that some of you see the miracles we all brought onto the world as proof that we deserve to lead you into a brighter tomorrow.
Yet, I am also disappointed—disappointed in myself and disappointed that I failed you. This may come as a surprise. After all, so much was achieved, and so many miracles were brought about so that each day could be better than the one before it.
I failed because you lost faith in yourself, a full faith in humanity. Tiberius, the people of Colchis, listen and listen well. I am not a god and do not need or desire worship.
Despite being created differently, I am just a person in the end. I am the same as you, a child of Old Terra.
It was not a spark of divinity that allowed me or my family to fight against impossible odds; it was the indomitable human spirit—a simple desire to see people you care for live a better life, to see the fate that cruel and uncaring universe decries for you and for them, and simply say no.
It was something everyone had deep inside them as long as they had faith in themselves and in their comrades—faith in that their actions mattered no matter how big or small.
I know that many of you doubt yourself: "Am I enough? Can I make my dreams a reality?" and that you may see what I have done and feel that your actions are somehow lesser than mine, but please listen to me. You achieved more than you let yourself believe. I myself am not without doubts; I saw that I could fall; I know that sometimes I may not be enough.
But I am not alone; I have people I can turn to, people I can trust, and people I can put my faith in. When I was at my lowest, my father was the one who helped me, not using his talents in sorcery but with words of advice. He wasn't talking to Lorgar the Primarch; he was telling his son Lorgar to stop being a moody brat because he had faith in me, a parent's faith in their child.
There was nothing beyond mortal means in that interaction. Yet, it helped me more than anything he did with powers beyond the means of an average person. This act of humanity in him and in me mattered the most.
People of Colchis, every single one of you has the potential for greatness because you are already great. Every time you reach out to your fellows, you build a better future, a single step at a time. Some may claim otherwise, but to me, that is much more powerful than any other miracle.
And Tiberius, even if I was somewhat irritated that you saw me as something I am not, I am proud of you for being willing to stand up for yourself and others against someone you consider a deity. This is what I meant by strength of humanity, a desire to stand for our beliefs.
But as a personal favour for me, Lorgar, your fellow man, not your leader, please don't call me a god. It is very uncomfortable, and I don't want to see people kneeling before me whenever I leave my home. It would be very awkward.
-[X] Tiberius, people of Colchis, I am flattered that you could see me as someone worthy of worship. I know you aren't people who would give their faith in any random powerful being, and that is the fact that some of you see the miracles we all brought onto the world as proof that we deserve to lead you into a brighter tomorrow.
Yet, I am also disappointed—disappointed in myself and disappointed that I failed you. This may come as a surprise. After all, so much was achieved, and so many miracles were brought about so that each day could be better than the one before it.
I failed because you lost faith in yourself, a full faith in humanity. Tiberius, the people of Colchis, listen and listen well. I am not a god and do not need or desire worship.
Despite being created differently, I am just a person in the end. I am the same as you, a child of Old Terra.
It was not a spark of divinity that allowed me or my family to fight against impossible odds; it was the indomitable human spirit—a simple desire to see people you care for live a better life, to see the fate that cruel and uncaring universe decries for you and for them, and simply say no.
It was something everyone had deep inside them as long as they had faith in themselves and in their comrades—faith in that their actions mattered no matter how big or small.
I know that many of you doubt yourself: "Am I enough? Can I make my dreams a reality?" and that you may see what I have done and feel that your actions are somehow lesser than mine, but please listen to me. You achieved more than you let yourself believe. I myself am not without doubts; I saw that I could fall; I know that sometimes I may not be enough.
But I am not alone; I have people I can turn to, people I can trust, and people I can put my faith in. When I was at my lowest, my father was the one who helped me, not using his talents in sorcery but with words of advice. He wasn't talking to Lorgar the Primarch; he was telling his son Lorgar to stop being a moody brat because he had faith in me, a parent's faith in their child.
There was nothing beyond mortal means in that interaction. Yet, it helped me more than anything he did with powers beyond the means of an average person. This act of humanity in him and in me mattered the most.
People of Colchis, every single one of you has the potential for greatness because you are already great. Every time you reach out to your fellows, you build a better future, a single step at a time. Some may claim otherwise, but to me, that is much more powerful than any other miracle.
And Tiberius, even if I was somewhat irritated that you saw me as something I am not, I am proud of you for being willing to stand up for yourself and others against someone you consider a deity. This is what I meant by strength of humanity, a desire to stand for our beliefs.
But as a personal favour for me, Lorgar, your fellow man, not your leader, please don't call me a god. It is very uncomfortable, and I don't want to see people kneeling before me whenever I leave my home. It would be very awkward.
This is very much not true. The indomitable humans spirit would have been squished without the warp-tech super weapons of varying ages. You also can't just ask them nicely not to call Lorgar a god without telling them why and giving them an alternative in my opinion or they will just do it anyway and call it a test. That is what they did with the Emperor,
- Location
- Arcadia
[X] Plan Divinity in All Things
Philosophical discourse is always fascinating and stimulating. Hopefully, Lorgar will be even closer to unlocking the Philosopher Aspect afterwards.
Philosophical discourse is always fascinating and stimulating. Hopefully, Lorgar will be even closer to unlocking the Philosopher Aspect afterwards.
- Location
- Pee Pee Poo Poo
Even if we do call those human motivations, what about Kairos? Kairos was uncertain, had hesitation, he had anger, he had fears too, but it didn't change the fact that he wasn't human. And neither are the primarchs.
One could argue that humans can gain the divine like Fan did, but even then he made a deal with Blood Ape (nice resemblance to the emperor lol)
Or they could achieve the divine like Thalassa did, through ascension.
Kairos had recognizable emotions, but that does not mean he had human motivations. He was never born as a flesh and blood being that was socialized human.
I think that you missunderstood me. My reasoning was that without their humanity people will fail even with warp-tech super weapons of varying ages.
I personaly think that while your plans has merits, it has the same pitfalls Emperor the best seer in Galaxy fell in. Your speach lacks weakness and personal connections.
It is a teacher or a parent given lecture, not someone of your same stature trying to explain something to you. And thus it can be interpreted as god talking to his wayward followers.
You aren't at least in my opinion adressing the core issue at hand, that the people do not belive in themselves. While I offered no explenations why Lorgar and others are diffrent I, try to at least, show people that in the end Lorgar is still human, powerful beyond the means of most people but still a person.
That speech has a whole lot of admitting ignorance and weakness which I think would be quite beyond the Emperor in a public setting. The fundamental difference though between what the Emperor did and what that speech does is trying to pull back the curtain. It's not all 'everything is science now shut up about the gods'.
While true, Big E would not even show that much weakness, at least to me it reads somewhat as "I known little, you known nothing".
I agree that I probably should give some explenation but I just couldn't find a good place to put it (and my knownledge of exalted is very much not a thing)
[X] Plan Divinity in All Things
The thing is 'I know little, you know nothing' is true and when you add 'and I will do my best to teach you' which the speech does, it is hopeful. At the end of the day this is 40K, that feeling that they are helpless in the face of a scary universe... that too is accurate, the best we can do is tell them that we see them, that we understand them and that we are doing our best to help them better themselves. Add to that on some basic level they are heirs to the same 'divinity' Lorgar is which puts them on the same path.
Last edited:
- Location
- India
"Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this divinity by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy - by one, or more, or all of these - and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details."
― Swami Vivekananda
― Swami Vivekananda
One thing we could be clearer on is that ascension is both hard and voluntary, but that we're working to one day make it possible for everyone to try. We can't do that today, and we can't guarantee everyone will succeed, but we are committed to building the first steps on the staircase to transcendence, and we're counting on the audience to then help us keep building the tower to Heaven.
As a side note. In 30/40K human souls aren't immortal. Eldar souls are nearly immortal, although they can still be killed with extreme measures, but the shock of death usually causes the souls of humans to disintegrate to be absorbed by the Warp. The exception are the souls of psykers and those with heroic willpower who can hold their souls together through death, but even they usually get torn apart and consumed by daemons.
The only human souls that survive intact are those claimed by a greater power, whether that be the Emperor or something else (here, the Shard of Winter).
So, what we say isn't that souls are immortal, but that the first step on the road to transcendence is to survive the death of the physical body, and while we may not be there yet it's something that is a work in progress and we're optimistic it's achievable.
The road to mass ascension is long and hard, but it is possible. Most of the population has experienced that true immortality past death is possible, so we need to complete that first step by making this reliable.
As a side note. In 30/40K human souls aren't immortal. Eldar souls are nearly immortal, although they can still be killed with extreme measures, but the shock of death usually causes the souls of humans to disintegrate to be absorbed by the Warp. The exception are the souls of psykers and those with heroic willpower who can hold their souls together through death, but even they usually get torn apart and consumed by daemons.
The only human souls that survive intact are those claimed by a greater power, whether that be the Emperor or something else (here, the Shard of Winter).
So, what we say isn't that souls are immortal, but that the first step on the road to transcendence is to survive the death of the physical body, and while we may not be there yet it's something that is a work in progress and we're optimistic it's achievable.
The road to mass ascension is long and hard, but it is possible. Most of the population has experienced that true immortality past death is possible, so we need to complete that first step by making this reliable.
Last edited:
We raised a bunch of people who died 10K+ years ago, their souls were not all in mind condition, but they were there. It seems to me that the world-soul, even in its fractured state was protecting the souls of Colchis' human population.
I suspect that was the Shard of Winter using necromancy to prepare the ground for his attempt at making an undead world soul, and censoring their memories in the process. I don't think the Worldsoul would bother with that step.
Either way, it was a greater power who helped them take the first step towards divinity.
Last edited:
Sure I'll add 'though my call and the power of the world-soul' at the end. I do not think we should be giving MoW any credit.
That's the key, souls are eternal but the mind is not.
Not even really that overall. When a demon eats a soul it becomes more fuel for the demon, it does not meaningfully remain a soul in any sense. This was true in Exalted too. The Fair Folk just eat souls since they are delicious. But on Colchis... especially now with those wards your soul is as safe as can be.
I wonder if we know enough about the Eldar to point out that within the memory of most people here there were at least quadrillions of Pre-Fall Eldar who could do what Lorgar and co just did.
Human souls aren't eternal by default though. They're usually exactly as mortal as the mind, and both die when the body does.
Thinking more about where I was heading, I think the contrast with people in the rest of the galaxy, who generally die when they're killed, and most of the people here, who didn't and probably won't, should be drawn out more.
What seems like a divine miracle to them now and what will be for a long time for people elsewhere will become normal to them.
Human souls aren't eternal by default though. They're usually exactly as mortal as the mind, and both die when the body does.
Thinking more about where I was heading, I think the contrast with people in the rest of the galaxy, who generally die when they're killed, and most of the people here, who didn't and probably won't, should be drawn out more.
What seems like a divine miracle to them now and what will be for a long time for people elsewhere will become normal to them.
Last edited:
I think that is an important conversation to have, but lets not overwhelm them. For right now the fact that they are immortal helps anchor the point about ascension and divinity.
My point was more that you say 'the soul is immortal'.
It's not. And some of them may know that, if they're shamans, or well educated enough in the past to have heard what Navigators see happens to souls as people die. They'll know that the soul is usually very mortal. They have, in fact, taken the first step on the path to divinity because they live somewhere this is no longer true. That's a big deal. We should make it clear that this is a change.
Just as Dharok, and Thalassa, and Fan, we're uplifted to a higher order of being through the intercession of another, so have they been.
It's making it clearly that they're already on the journey to transcendence, just as the Circle is, they're just following in the trail we blazed.
The soul in 40K is functionally identical to the soul in Exalted (as we established a few pages back), which means that on its own the soul is immortal, it's just that some asshole broke the Cycle of Reincarnation and now things out of the Wyld are eating most souls upon death. That's not the soul being perishable, it is everything around the soul being screwed. Also IC Lorgar does not know other worlds don't have world souls.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan Divinity in All Things
I feel like this is probably the most likely to succeed long term, most especially because it happens to be true in ways that Lorgar claiming to be "just a man" isn't really, at least by the metaphysics of 40k. So I'll go with this one, especially if it gets people closer to an animism mindset, as that would help us long term if we want to awaken other celestial objects?
I feel like this is probably the most likely to succeed long term, most especially because it happens to be true in ways that Lorgar claiming to be "just a man" isn't really, at least by the metaphysics of 40k. So I'll go with this one, especially if it gets people closer to an animism mindset, as that would help us long term if we want to awaken other celestial objects?
I was referring to more anybody could get to Faith 10.
Which is an extreme level of power in its own right.
Which is an extreme level of power in its own right.