Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
I can safely say that it is not what you think. Depending on how you handle him, he is a potential Circle member.
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
- Start date
- Crossover
Have Logar go into exact explanation of how this always all achieved. With an additional bit about how it an achievable goal for anybody, to achieve these great heights if they work for it.
Last edited:
It is also factually true, everything either has a spirit, if it is inanimate or it has a soul if it is animate.
- Location
- Arcadia
Now, as to knowledge and belief, no matter what the religion, there will be claims of knowledge, the argument being that those claims are crucial to religious practice and provide solutions to the questions and problems of life. These claims can be metaphysical, epistemic, and ethical.
There is evidentialism, which posits that "a belief is rationally justified only if there is sufficient evidence for it". Both theists and non-theists can be evidentialists. As an example, Aquinas himself asserted that God is only rational if there is sufficient evidence. The problem would be where to find said evidence. Those positions are predicated upon the assumption that subjective religious experiences do not constitute valid evidence. The arguments must be made based on non-religious evidence.
Others, however, take the opposite position. They argue that religious belief does not require evidence. They can be called non-evidentialists. There are fideists (faith is independent of reason; faith and reason are hostile, faith is better at arriving at some truths than reason) and reformed epistemologists (belief can be justified by more than evidence alone), to name some. The position would be that it is not irrational to hold religious beliefs, even though there is no evidentiary support. The rationale, then, is that some beliefs must serve as a foundation instead of being based upon other rational beliefs. Otherwise, one might risk infinite regress. One could think of it as being analogous to postulates and theorems in geometry. Of course, for reformed epistemologists, there is the proviso that these basic beliefs can be protected against objections. A true basic belief is one that can be held within reason and without need for evidence. Such examples would include memory or perception. Alvin Platinga, for example, argued belief in God would be such a proper basic belief, because every human mind is naturally aware of divinity.
Some, like William James, defend religious belief on the basis of pragmatism, the practical value that religious belief can bring to lives, even if there is no rational evidence to support it.
Then, there are some interesting developments in recent epistemology, regarding practical skills and knowledge and how they can help determine whether theism is true. For formal epistemology, there is the use of probability theory. For social epistemology, there would be such things as the epistemology of testimony and the epistemology of disagreement.
In the epistemology of religion, religious disagreement is a crucial topic. What does it mean for learned individuals of roughly equivalent epistemic parity to disagree on religious topics? Religious disagreements can be seen to pose first-order or higher-order problems where religious belief is concerned. Regarding first order problems, the question is if the evidence directly applies to the truth of a religious proposition. For a higher order problem, the query is about whether one has rationally assessed the first order evidence.
One first order problem would be argument from nonbelief. Higher order discussions, on the other hand, involve the question of whether religious disagreement with one's epistemic peers would require that one adept an agnostic or atheistic position or to change one's religious beliefs.
There is evidentialism, which posits that "a belief is rationally justified only if there is sufficient evidence for it". Both theists and non-theists can be evidentialists. As an example, Aquinas himself asserted that God is only rational if there is sufficient evidence. The problem would be where to find said evidence. Those positions are predicated upon the assumption that subjective religious experiences do not constitute valid evidence. The arguments must be made based on non-religious evidence.
Others, however, take the opposite position. They argue that religious belief does not require evidence. They can be called non-evidentialists. There are fideists (faith is independent of reason; faith and reason are hostile, faith is better at arriving at some truths than reason) and reformed epistemologists (belief can be justified by more than evidence alone), to name some. The position would be that it is not irrational to hold religious beliefs, even though there is no evidentiary support. The rationale, then, is that some beliefs must serve as a foundation instead of being based upon other rational beliefs. Otherwise, one might risk infinite regress. One could think of it as being analogous to postulates and theorems in geometry. Of course, for reformed epistemologists, there is the proviso that these basic beliefs can be protected against objections. A true basic belief is one that can be held within reason and without need for evidence. Such examples would include memory or perception. Alvin Platinga, for example, argued belief in God would be such a proper basic belief, because every human mind is naturally aware of divinity.
Some, like William James, defend religious belief on the basis of pragmatism, the practical value that religious belief can bring to lives, even if there is no rational evidence to support it.
Then, there are some interesting developments in recent epistemology, regarding practical skills and knowledge and how they can help determine whether theism is true. For formal epistemology, there is the use of probability theory. For social epistemology, there would be such things as the epistemology of testimony and the epistemology of disagreement.
In the epistemology of religion, religious disagreement is a crucial topic. What does it mean for learned individuals of roughly equivalent epistemic parity to disagree on religious topics? Religious disagreements can be seen to pose first-order or higher-order problems where religious belief is concerned. Regarding first order problems, the question is if the evidence directly applies to the truth of a religious proposition. For a higher order problem, the query is about whether one has rationally assessed the first order evidence.
One first order problem would be argument from nonbelief. Higher order discussions, on the other hand, involve the question of whether religious disagreement with one's epistemic peers would require that one adept an agnostic or atheistic position or to change one's religious beliefs.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
This is false though.
At the end of the day Lorgar, Dharok and Thalassa are all demigods and you are exalted.
All that says is we have a leg up. An Exaltation is a tool, literally an instrument of war... and so is a primarch, There is nothing sublime or transcendent about it. Had we the knowledge, the tools and the circumstances neither Exaltations nor primarchs are beyond reproduction in absolute terms.
Last edited:
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Yes but not any person, no matter how talented, can pull off the bullshit that was turn 7.
Not on their own, but given a broad enough span of time society can not only achieve but surpass the power and skill that made turn 7 happen. Conceptually we are no different from a person in a neolithic society with a las gun, it's just that the differential for the artifact we found is even greater.
Actually given that this is a planet that has people raised from all levels of tech this may be a good term of comparison.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
The context to which i was replying to was this.
"With an additional bit about how it an achievable goal for anybody, to achieve these great heights if they work for it."
So I mean it in the context that no matter how much you hit the gym, you are not punching out a mountain out cold.
You could do it does not mean you can. And Society can do it in the future matters little to the here and now, especially if the people will not live long enough to see it.
"With an additional bit about how it an achievable goal for anybody, to achieve these great heights if they work for it."
So I mean it in the context that no matter how much you hit the gym, you are not punching out a mountain out cold.
You could do it does not mean you can. And Society can do it in the future matters little to the here and now, especially if the people will not live long enough to see it.
That is a fair point, definitely needs to be framed differently. Something like: 'if souls are eternal,' something Tiberius believes in I think, 'then eventually they will see the fruits of their labors.'
It should be noted we made a demigod, literally crafted one with skill and sorcery. Yes a normal human could not do that, but that is not because of them being conceptually inferior, it's because they lack the tools. You do not bow down to the guy with the screwdriver just because you do not understand how tools are made. Conceptually the reason why these people think the ethereal constructs bolted to our souls are marks of inherent superiority is that they cannot perceive them properly, the knowledge is literally occult which means that we can explain some of it to them, but not all. On some level they are going to have to trust us that we are the guys with the only analytical tools good enough to even have a shot at looking at this stuff and that it is all understandable and reproducible.
- Location
- Arcadia
The next topic in the philosophy of religion would be faith and reason, quite relevant here, one would think.
There is something of a dichotomy. While religions utilize rational arguments to attempt to establish their perspectives, there is also the assertion that religious belief must be at least partially accepted via faith, defined as confidence or trust in one's religious beliefs.
It is interesting that there are various models of faith.
The affective model defines it as a feeling of trust. It would be a psychological state.
The special knowledge model unveils particular religious truths. This position happens to be the one supported by Reformed epistemology.
There is the belief model of faith, as in the theoretic conviction that a religious claim is true.
Then, there is model of faith as a matter of trust. Trusting in God would be a fiducial commitment, for example.
The doxastic venture model is rather interesting. In this model, faith is defined as a commitment to believe in the trustworthiness of a religious truth or a God. That is to say, trusting in God presupposes belief. Therefore, faith must include aspects of belief and trust.
The non-doxastic venture model sees faith as a pragmatic commitment without belief. The assertion is that one need not believe in actual religious claims regarding reality to have such religious faith.
Finally, there is the hope model, which sees faith as hoping.
Then, there are the discussions about how faith relates to reason. Some see faith and reason as compatible, as espoused by Aquinas and Catholic natural theology. Reason would establish certain religious truths, and then faith, being guided by reason, would allow one to access those truths regarding the divine. Aquinas posited that those truths exceed the capacity of all human reason.
As previously mentioned, Fideism takes the position that faith and reason are independent of one another, if not outright adversarial. Kierkegaard himself was such an one. He argued of the necessity to make an irrational leap of faith to bridge the gulf between mortal and divine, man and God.
Some New Atheists also posit that religious and scientific claims are opposed to one another, and religion is therefore false.
Some, like Karl Barth, take the position of Neo-orthodoxy, arguing that religious believers do not need to justify their beliefs through reason. Therefore, they reject the natural theology project. The premise is that human reason is corrupt, and God is completely different from those He created. Therefore, one must depend upon God for religious revelation.
Of course, as Brian Davies noted, the problem with that position is that it does not help one to decide between inconsistent and competing revelations from different religions.
There is something of a dichotomy. While religions utilize rational arguments to attempt to establish their perspectives, there is also the assertion that religious belief must be at least partially accepted via faith, defined as confidence or trust in one's religious beliefs.
It is interesting that there are various models of faith.
The affective model defines it as a feeling of trust. It would be a psychological state.
The special knowledge model unveils particular religious truths. This position happens to be the one supported by Reformed epistemology.
There is the belief model of faith, as in the theoretic conviction that a religious claim is true.
Then, there is model of faith as a matter of trust. Trusting in God would be a fiducial commitment, for example.
The doxastic venture model is rather interesting. In this model, faith is defined as a commitment to believe in the trustworthiness of a religious truth or a God. That is to say, trusting in God presupposes belief. Therefore, faith must include aspects of belief and trust.
The non-doxastic venture model sees faith as a pragmatic commitment without belief. The assertion is that one need not believe in actual religious claims regarding reality to have such religious faith.
Finally, there is the hope model, which sees faith as hoping.
Then, there are the discussions about how faith relates to reason. Some see faith and reason as compatible, as espoused by Aquinas and Catholic natural theology. Reason would establish certain religious truths, and then faith, being guided by reason, would allow one to access those truths regarding the divine. Aquinas posited that those truths exceed the capacity of all human reason.
As previously mentioned, Fideism takes the position that faith and reason are independent of one another, if not outright adversarial. Kierkegaard himself was such an one. He argued of the necessity to make an irrational leap of faith to bridge the gulf between mortal and divine, man and God.
Some New Atheists also posit that religious and scientific claims are opposed to one another, and religion is therefore false.
Some, like Karl Barth, take the position of Neo-orthodoxy, arguing that religious believers do not need to justify their beliefs through reason. Therefore, they reject the natural theology project. The premise is that human reason is corrupt, and God is completely different from those He created. Therefore, one must depend upon God for religious revelation.
Of course, as Brian Davies noted, the problem with that position is that it does not help one to decide between inconsistent and competing revelations from different religions.
Last edited:
Now that I know we are addressing a future circle mate I'm going to try to write something a little less combative and more personal to Lorgar. One moment.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Not just this. You are being televised across the planet. Meaning EVERYONE is hearing this.
I think that we should also address that on a personal level Lorgar and others don't want to be gods or be worshipped, not in an angry manner but as a very personal desire.
They are different from other humans, yet they are still humans. It is part of their very being. Lorgar could understand that others could see unity, faith and progress with him as a god, even possible be flater that they think that he could be a god worth to pray to, but he himself can't and doesn't want to be that for them.
They achieved so much without worshipping him because it wasn't a spark of divinity that made Lorgar and others do such miracles. It was the indomitable human spirit that let him do what others considered divine.
They are different from other humans, yet they are still humans. It is part of their very being. Lorgar could understand that others could see unity, faith and progress with him as a god, even possible be flater that they think that he could be a god worth to pray to, but he himself can't and doesn't want to be that for them.
They achieved so much without worshipping him because it wasn't a spark of divinity that made Lorgar and others do such miracles. It was the indomitable human spirit that let him do what others considered divine.
[X] Plan Divinity in All Things
-[X] Sincerely: :You are well informed Tiberius and your words show wisdom, but you do not know the whole of the story and that ironically enough is the heart of the story, that not knowing, that occlusion. I will try to explain, but before we go much further I would ask of all of you, those who think I am a god and those who think I am not, do you think I an worthy of listening, do you think I speak truth to you and not lies as I understand it?"
-[X] Wait for crowd and Tiberius to affirm they believe Lorgar is being sincere
-[X] "Do you know how Thalassa came to be as she is? She did not come to Colchis as she is now, invested with the spirit of the Machine God, this is something I, my father and Dharok did to empower her, for her wisdom, for her aid in battle against the Mask of Winters which we sorely needed. She is a demigod, her very soul altered, forever bound to a machine spirit in a way that allow her gifts beyond the mightiest of shamans and yet that was a work of craft and ingenuity of skill and understanding no different from the making of any other technology you use every day... and yes in them as well divinity can be found." Lorgar smiles at the crowd. "In all things divinity can be found, but that does not require of all of you propitiation. Given the tools, the work the understanding any of you, all of you could rise as high as any of us, it is just that the path before us is so very, very long. But do not despair, for the soul is immortal, if it takes us a thousand a, million, a billion years to understand all that is to be found of the mysteries of the soul you too shall be a part of it. Is not your very resurrection by my call and through the power of the world-soul proof of this?"
-[X] Wait for someone in the crowd or Tiberius himself to bring up the primarch's own origins
-[X] Lorgar raises one large hand and holds it up in front of his face as though trying to stare though the flesh. "I do not understand all that I am, indeed I understand just enough to know how very much more there is to go, but even just that much makes is clear that I am no natural being. The organs I possess, the redundancies, the resistance to harm and to pain that I pass to my sons, the very things that helped me defeat the Mask of Winters are... artificial, they are created with intent, with knowledge most likely to help face such foes as this. I do not have final and absolute answers for you all, but this I know to be true, the divinity within each of you is no less worthy of reverence than the divinity within me just as a fire is still a fire whether or not one holds a magnifying glass to it. "
-[X] Know that you are not alone as I was not alone in my time of need. I too needed people to turn to, people I can trust, and people I can put my faith in. When I was at my lowest, my father was the one who helped me, not using his talents in sorcery but with words of advice. He wasn't talking to Lorgar the Primarch; he was telling his son Lorgar to stop being a moody brat because he had faith in me, a parent's faith in their child. There was nothing beyond mortal means in that interaction. Yet, it helped me more than anything he did with powers beyond the means of an average person. This act of humanity in him and in me mattered the most. People of Colchis, every single one of you has the potential for greatness because you are already great. Every time you reach out to your fellows, you build a better future, a single step at a time. Some may claim otherwise, but to me, that is much more powerful than any other miracle. And Tiberius, even if I was somewhat irritated that you saw me as something I am not, I am proud of you for being willing to stand up for yourself and others against someone you consider a deity. This is what I meant by strength of humanity, a desire to stand for our beliefs.
-[X] Use all relevant passive charms and spend willpower.
-[X] Use precognition to find the best of all paths to convey the sentiment above
-[X] Sincerely: :You are well informed Tiberius and your words show wisdom, but you do not know the whole of the story and that ironically enough is the heart of the story, that not knowing, that occlusion. I will try to explain, but before we go much further I would ask of all of you, those who think I am a god and those who think I am not, do you think I an worthy of listening, do you think I speak truth to you and not lies as I understand it?"
-[X] Wait for crowd and Tiberius to affirm they believe Lorgar is being sincere
-[X] "Do you know how Thalassa came to be as she is? She did not come to Colchis as she is now, invested with the spirit of the Machine God, this is something I, my father and Dharok did to empower her, for her wisdom, for her aid in battle against the Mask of Winters which we sorely needed. She is a demigod, her very soul altered, forever bound to a machine spirit in a way that allow her gifts beyond the mightiest of shamans and yet that was a work of craft and ingenuity of skill and understanding no different from the making of any other technology you use every day... and yes in them as well divinity can be found." Lorgar smiles at the crowd. "In all things divinity can be found, but that does not require of all of you propitiation. Given the tools, the work the understanding any of you, all of you could rise as high as any of us, it is just that the path before us is so very, very long. But do not despair, for the soul is immortal, if it takes us a thousand a, million, a billion years to understand all that is to be found of the mysteries of the soul you too shall be a part of it. Is not your very resurrection by my call and through the power of the world-soul proof of this?"
-[X] Wait for someone in the crowd or Tiberius himself to bring up the primarch's own origins
-[X] Lorgar raises one large hand and holds it up in front of his face as though trying to stare though the flesh. "I do not understand all that I am, indeed I understand just enough to know how very much more there is to go, but even just that much makes is clear that I am no natural being. The organs I possess, the redundancies, the resistance to harm and to pain that I pass to my sons, the very things that helped me defeat the Mask of Winters are... artificial, they are created with intent, with knowledge most likely to help face such foes as this. I do not have final and absolute answers for you all, but this I know to be true, the divinity within each of you is no less worthy of reverence than the divinity within me just as a fire is still a fire whether or not one holds a magnifying glass to it. "
-[X] Know that you are not alone as I was not alone in my time of need. I too needed people to turn to, people I can trust, and people I can put my faith in. When I was at my lowest, my father was the one who helped me, not using his talents in sorcery but with words of advice. He wasn't talking to Lorgar the Primarch; he was telling his son Lorgar to stop being a moody brat because he had faith in me, a parent's faith in their child. There was nothing beyond mortal means in that interaction. Yet, it helped me more than anything he did with powers beyond the means of an average person. This act of humanity in him and in me mattered the most. People of Colchis, every single one of you has the potential for greatness because you are already great. Every time you reach out to your fellows, you build a better future, a single step at a time. Some may claim otherwise, but to me, that is much more powerful than any other miracle. And Tiberius, even if I was somewhat irritated that you saw me as something I am not, I am proud of you for being willing to stand up for yourself and others against someone you consider a deity. This is what I meant by strength of humanity, a desire to stand for our beliefs.
-[X] Use all relevant passive charms and spend willpower.
-[X] Use precognition to find the best of all paths to convey the sentiment above
Last edited:
- Location
- Pee Pee Poo Poo
Lorgar is technically divine though, all primarchs are, they got warp stuff from the emperors deal. If Tiberius brings that up how would Lorgar counter? He's not really a "human", he's only human body wise, part warp creature soul wise. This isn't even taking into account all the exalted stuff from Fan.
So is his Tiberius' toaster, it has a machine spirit, which is a (infinitesimally small) part of the Machine God, so is the blade of grass underfoot, it has a spirit that is part of the world-soul. Unless one wants to make the argument that all 'non-special humans' are fundamentally apart from the rest of the universe humans too are no less divine than primarchs. The primarchs are just instrumentally made to focus and use that divinity.
Last edited:
you think we can proc Faith/Enlightenment and illumination aspects to get the x6 multiplier?
also do we have to say lorgar is using his primarch powers? cause Hear prayers would be good for the -3 difficulty at sux 5 plus the -3 difficulty from voice of a primarch for a total of -6 difficulty for the roll
Both of those are inherent, they do not have to be voted, they just happen like Fan's excellencies. The only thing he has that would have to be activated is gaslighting which I do not want to use on a non-hostile character. I will add spending willpower though, he has plenty.
oh yeah we have this as well, should we scry the future to help the debate or nah?
- Location
- Pee Pee Poo Poo
They are fundamentally apart from the rest of humanity, because their humanity is only a facade, skin deep. The moment they're in the warp, the facade slips and they show what they really are.
Can't hurt, added that in.
No they are not, primarchs have very human motivations, desires and fears. The ability to just hang on in the warp, that does not make one other, it just means you have anti-shaping protections. That is a thing we can make with artifacts and sorcery,
Last edited:
- Location
- Arcadia
Well, since precognition is being implemented, should telepathy be added as well, some delicate probing into Tiberius' thoughts?