Aren't those Librarians just brute forcing what Navigators can do naturally and just looking into the warp and following the astronomicon. I don't think there's any precognition about it I think it's just being a strong psycher and being able to see into the warp.

You must be a strong diviner specifically do to it, in this system that would be precognition I think.

Lidless demon eye is also a superior option, trading some navigator psyker like power for a Solar level charm, but good luck trying to convince non navigator to wish for it.

I mean... money and power get? Out of a population of billions I imagine there would be at least a handful of people who would be OK with wishing for a mutation given sufficient compensation for them and their families.
 
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I mean... money and power get? Out of a population of billions I imagine there would be at least a handful of people who would be OK with wishing for a mutation given sufficient compensation for them and their families.
Not how wishes work. You are bound to roughly grant them what they want. So they must primarily want the mutation and not money in exchange for wishing for the mutation.

They need an intimacy to back the wish and it must roughly fulfil what they want. If they wish for power to kill an enemy, you have freedom in increasing their sword skills, sorcery dots, ect that would help progress their intimacy or is related to it.

You CAN monkey paw it if you want. But it should roughly be related to what they want. Like giving War dots in place of sorcery or melee where the guy is dirt poor and has no friends.

It functions on irony and you are constrained to grant them want but have full freedom to invoke "Be careful of what you wish for because it may come true"
 
Not how wishes work. You are bound to roughly grant them what they want. So they must primarily want the mutation and not money in exchange for wishing for the mutation.

They need an intimacy to back the wish and it must roughly fulfil what they want. If they wish for power to kill an enemy, you have freedom in increasing their sword skills, sorcery dots, ect that would help progress their intimacy or is related to it.

You CAN monkey paw it if you want. But it should roughly be related to what they want. Like giving War dots in place of sorcery or melee where the guy is dirt poor and has no friends.

It functions on irony and you are constrained to grant them want but have full freedom to invoke "Be careful of what you wish for because it may come true"

Oh... it would be a somewhat dangerous group to tap but what about people who want to see into the warp with great clarity? Who want to see the galaxy? Basically what I'm saying is the people who on any other planet would be in Chaos-bait.

There is also using education to naturally build up the intimacy though the timescale is too tight for that in this case.
 
but what about people who want to see into the warp with great clarity?
People like that are.......untable. I mean, they want to literally see into hell where the daemons can stare right back at them. Not the kind of people you want to rely upon.
Who want to see the galaxy?
Not galaxy but more, see the true nature of things. This would be a monkey paw type of wish and not someone you would then want to press into service.

Keep in mind whdn looking inti the Warp. You have UMI defenses. They probably do not and if they do? It probably will not be enough.
 
Actually wait a sec... is there a way to get the Ship's Machine Spirit to do the seeing? The Warp is for all its present awfulness closer to the native environment of spirits than humans. We know daemon ships can just find their way through the warp even when there is no one on them since they have daemons in them. We could try that but hold the evil.
 
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Actually wait a sec... is there a way to get the Ship's Machine Spirit to do the seeing? The Warp is for all its present awfulness closer to the native environment of spirits than humans. We know daemon ships can just find their way through the warp even when there is no one on them since they have daemons in them. We could try that but hold the evil.
You want to ask something responsible for control of all you tech on the ship, including the life support, in ship defence systems and gelar fields to look at congnitive hazard that is the warp for extended period of time?
 
You want to ask something responsible for control of all you tech on the ship, including the life support, in ship defence systems and gelar fields to look at congnitive hazard that is the warp for extended period of time?

I am pretty sure machine spirits are not inherently blind to their environments. The only difference from normal would be that they would know what to look for and be better at picking out a path.
 
Not galaxy but more, see the true nature of things. This would be a monkey paw type of wish and not someone you would then want to press into service.

Keep in mind whdn looking inti the Warp. You have UMI defenses. They probably do not and if they do? It probably will not be enough.

Get someone to wish to be able to travel the galaxy, and give them the Navigator mutation as a result?

Or the Lidless Demon Eye, assuming it's different.

One of the bonuses of the Navigator's warp eye is that they do not go mad by looking at the warp using it. They translate what they see into a compressible metaphor (for example, IIRC, one Navigator may see the Warp as a dangerous jungle filled with natural and wild animals they have to find a safe path through while another will see it as a labyrinthine Hive City, with gangers and areas of industrial blight, etc). They see the truth of the warp well enough to navigate through it and manipulate, but they're shielded from the cognitohazards.

The non-psyker supernatural powers of the warp eye are a bonus on top of that, a result of the ability of the Navigator to change the warp by looking at it (the warp is reflexive, it's always changed by being observed, if not to the degree or deliberateness that Navigators can) without needing the channel the warp's energy through their soul like a psyker does.

I think there are spirit mental defence charms, so make a demon species with one of those and the Lidless Eye Mutation and have it possess something.
 
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Hm, by the by, as for Adorjan's Charms, Fan Morgal now has Wind-Born Stride and Running to Forever. Congratulations are in order. Now, Fan Morgal can move more swiftly and easily, and he no longer needs sleep.
 
@Yzarc, thank you for updating the character sheets.

A small thing, I think Thalassa should be Mythos 3.

I see that the VEE upgrades we have the circle haven't been applied, although I understand that may happen later.
 
Get someone to wish to be able to travel the galaxy, and give them the Navigator mutation as a result?

Or the Lidless Demon Eye, assuming it's different.

One of the bonuses of the Navigator's warp eye is that they do not go mad by looking at the warp using it. They translate what they see into a compressible metaphor (for example, IIRC, one Navigator may see the Warp as a dangerous jungle filled with natural and wild animals they have to find a safe path through while another will see it as a labyrinthine Hive City, with hangers and areas of industrial blight, etc). They see the truth of the warp well enough to navigate through it and manipulate, but they're shielded from the cognitohazards.

The non-psyker supernatural powers of the warp eye are a bonus on top of that, a result of the ability of the Navigator to change the warp by looking at it (the warp is reflexive, it's always changed by being observed, if not to the degree or deliberateness that Navigators can) without needing the channel the warp's energy through their soul like a psyker does.

I think there are spirit mental defence charms, so make a demon species with one of those and the Lidless Eye Mutation and have it possess something.

I'm not sure I would call it non-psyker. Navigators feel more like a very specific type of psyker, one that has protections that allow them to use the warp in a specialized way. Just by the fact that a Grey Knight Librarian, or indeed a skilled enough diviner can do their job (though the latter will take corruption) I think we can see that they are not part of a different paradigm, they or rather whoever designed them found an edge case and exploited it.
 
Let me put it this way. You literally and figuratively speedran through the "Conquer Colchis" portion of the quest.

I mean it is barely 2 years since Lorgar arrived that all of that happened.

So expect a slow down till you get to space and start getting events to xp grind or gain unique advantages.
Out of curiosity, how long were you thinking we'd take for that when the quest started?
Also, it's a bit weird to remember that Lorgar is actually that young.
 
There's an artifact from Canon Exalted we could build to boost our travel ability, Gates of Auspicious Passage. In Exalted they were effectively a Stargate network that sent people through Elsewhere to the Gate you dialed. In theory you could make a simplified version by cutting them down to two portals accessing the same pocket dimension in Elsewhere instead of an entire network to increase throughput which was a limitation of the original.

Building a train to Milhand would both enable us to make use of their industry to build up our own, and provide some assurance they wouldn't invade as they would hopefully consider the opportunity to buy Gates of their own to be of more value than taking resources they could just trade for anyway.

Do we have access to Elsewhere in the 40k 'verse? IIRC there were a bunch of Adjoran Charms that made use of it.
 
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Hm, canonically, what was the fastest that a Primarch rose to leadership of their homeworld?

One wonders what the other Primarchs will think upon learning that Lorgar performed a speed run in reaching leadership of his homeworld, doing so in 2 years since landing on Colchis.

To be fair, it was not easy, not like, say, Guilliman being adopted by his world's ruler.
 
I'm not sure I would call it non-psyker. Navigators feel more like a very specific type of psyker, one that has protections that allow them to use the warp in a specialized way. Just by the fact that a Grey Knight Librarian, or indeed a skilled enough diviner can do their job (though the latter will take corruption) I think we can see that they are not part of a different paradigm, they or rather whoever designed them found an edge case and exploited it.

The reason I'd argue Navigators aren't psykers is the same as why Dark Eldar aren't psykers, despite having psychic abilities, or why sorcerers aren't psykers.

Psykers are specifically people who channel the raw energy of the warp through their soul into the Materium to manifest supernatural abilities.

Navigators don't do that. There's something special about their body and soul that allows them to perceive and by perceiving influence the warp. Just like there's something special about Eldar souls that allows them to be psychic vampires and use the energy they consume to empower and rejuvenate themselves without them touching the Warp.

It's the same way that a Gellar field isn't a psyker, and isn't even psytech., but can still influence the warp.

The closest thing I can think of to Elsewhere in 40K is the Webway and we do not want to pass our trains though the Commorragh or something. Still I might be wrong on that @Yzarc is Elsewhere still there in this version of the universe?

Thalassa's Hammerspace suggests there is.
 
The reason I'd argue Navigators aren't psykers is the same as why Dark Eldar aren't psykers, despite having psychic abilities, or why sorcerers aren't psykers.

Psykers are specifically people who channel the raw energy of the warp through their soul into the Materium to manifest supernatural abilities.

Navigators don't do that. There's something special about their body and soul that allows them to perceive and by perceiving influence the warp. Just like there's something special about Eldar souls that allows them to be psychic vampires and use the energy they consume to empower and rejuvenate themselves without them touching the Warp.

It's the same way that a Gellar field isn't a psyker, and isn't even psytech., but can still influence the warp.



Thalassa's Hammerspace suggests there is.

I think we may be working off a different definition of 'psychic'. For instance I see the Dark Eldar and their soul eating as no different from a more refined version of Psychic Vampirism, which is the only thing they can use without fear of She Who Thirsts, potentially because it is the one power that makes them more like Slaanesh, they are sort of making a sacrifice and acknowledgement to the God that is most of their pantheon... because it ate most of their pantheon.
 
I think we may be working off a different definition of 'psychic'. For instance I see the Dark Eldar and their soul eating as no different from a more refined version of Psychic Vampirism, which is the only thing they can use without fear of She Who Thirsts, potentially because it is the one power that makes them more like Slaanesh, they are sort of making a sacrifice and acknowledgement to the God that is most of their pantheon... because it ate most of their pantheon.

The thing is; there's nothing that I can find that even implies that may be the case, and a lot that says that most Dark Eldar use a combination of drugs and rigorous self-control to suppress their psyker abilities, but nothing that suggests that does anything to influence their ability to eat emotions or souls or super-charge themselves with the consumed energies, which is just a different ability. Similarly, Craftworld Eldar who are on a path that suppresses their ability to use psyker powers so they can't draw on the warp have an inherent talent to regenerate their wounds that can be triggered by healers who can induce the right state in them, even though they can non longer trigger it themselves.

To use a WFB example, the Dark Eldar's powers seem a lot more like vampiric Blood Gifts, which are also usual fuelled with stolen energy, than they are like spell casters calling on an external source of magic, who are more like psykers.

And to use an in quest example. An enlightened mortal can choose to use their own Essence to fuel a psyker ability, rather than using their Willpower to draw on the energy of the Warp at the risk of Perils.

Similarly, Dark Eldar and Navigators can use much more limited psychic abilities that they power with their own souls without needing to use a psyker's ability to tap into the Warp for power.

Basically, they have something like inherent Gifts or mutations that either don't require external energy, like Navigators' powers, or can themselves be used to steal others' energy, like Dark Eldar.

Tl;dr: Psyker powers are defined by the energy source. Psykers draw energy from the Warp. Neither Navigators nor Dark Eldar do, albeit for different reasons.

The Navigators literally have a third eye that sees into the warp, how in Khornate cotted tomato juice that's not a psychic ability?

Psychic is not the same as psyker.

A psyker's soul is a gateway to the warp through which energy spills, energy they can direct into psyker powers. That's why daemons can more easily possesses them and Enslavers can widen the gateway to physically enter the Materium through a Psyker.

A Navigator's soul does not contain that gateway. They can perceive and influence the Warp, but they aren't an unlocked door that they need to hold shut through Willpower or a patron's blessing like a psyker does.
 
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Hm, canonically, what was the fastest that a Primarch rose to leadership of their homeworld?

One wonders what the other Primarchs will think upon learning that Lorgar performed a speed run in reaching leadership of his homeworld, doing so in 2 years since landing on Colchis.

To be fair, it was not easy, not like, say, Guilliman being adopted by his world's ruler.
I think it was Corvus if you only account to being leader of slave revolt and count the moon as his homeworld.
Otherwise I think Magnus because of scholarly nature of Prospero
 
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I think it was Corvus if you only account to being leader of slave revolt and count the moon as his homeworld.
Otherwise I think Magnus because of scholarly nature of Prospero

Magnus apparently took 'a few years', if the wiki can be believed. He then had to kill the warp predators infesting much of Prospero.
 
The closest thing I can think of to Elsewhere in 40K is the Webway and we do not want to pass our trains though the Commorragh or something. Still I might be wrong on that @Yzarc is Elsewhere still there in this version of the universe?
There's also the Ghostwind, which should be possible to build paths through, at least in theory. Though we have no existing references on how to do so, unless some of the Underworld stuff counts.
 
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