yeah and others took decade plus at least
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
- Start date
- Crossover
I get where you are coming from but by that logic we could train psykers and then have them powered exclusively by Essence or mana potions and claim they are not psykers since they are not drawing on the warp directly. Thing is souls are I think refreshed by contact with the warp (though the only explicit place I can think of for that is a fantasy source) so the power of one's own soul also comes from the warp ultimately, just like the mana potion.
To be Enlightened, you have to be a psyker first. Someone with Enlightened Essence using that to fuel a power isn't using a psyker power at that point, but they are still a psyker.
Now, it may be possible for someone who is Enlightened to hold closed the door to the warp in their souls, as Dark Eldar do, but given what we were told about what being Enlightened is, being balanced between the Yang of the material and Yin of the Warp, I doubt that's possible.
The way I see it, there are a couple of things that use the term psyker:
1) Being 'a psyker' means having a gateway to the Warp in your soul that energy and potentially entities like daemons and enslavers can pass through. This is in some way qualitatively different to how normal souls are nourished by contact with the Warp. They touch it, but don't have the gateway.
2) Using a 'psyker power' means opening the gateway in your soul and shaping the energy that pours through.
A shaman-psyker using Gnosis as fuel or an Enlightened Psyker using Essence or even a Dark Eldar using their own or stolen energy thus isn't doing 2. They are still 1, if a suppressed 1 in the case of Dark Eldar.
However, someone using psyniscience, which allows you to sense people opening the gateway in their soul and drawing on the Warp, almost certainly wouldn't sense someone using already granted Gnosis or Essence to fuel a power, so to other psykers who have cultivated that ability they wouldn't register as using a psyker power.
Navigators don't have that gateway to the warp in their soul, so they're not psykers. Their warp eye gives them supernatural abilities, but you can have supernatural abilities without drawing the power for them through a little portal to the warp in your soul. Navigators are just are particularly clever implementation of that idea, seeming based on the fact that to perceive the Warp is to change it, and perceiving and so changing it doesn't require energy.
This is why Navigators don't show up to Psyniscience when they use their abilities or as a passive presence to those who can detect psykers when they aren't using their powers by the presence of the gateway in their souls.
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I do not think the dark eldar hold closed the doors of their souls, if they did they would not be leaking soul stuff and thus need to heed the hunger for pain. What the dark eldar do is not actively use any power besides the soul eating since that would put them in the crosshairs of She Who Thirsts.
The Dark Eldar, as a culture, don't suppress the development of their psyker abilities because of Slaneesh's Thirst though.
They suppress them and make using psyker powers within the Webway illegal because using a psyker ability risks punching a hole through the Webway's Wards, causing a Disjunction and letting the daemons in.
Individual Dark Eldar can and do still learn how to use their psyker powers. It's just dangerous, as if they don't have anyone to teach them to do so safely, and the Dark Eldar's leadership will brutally murder anyone they catch doing so. If they do manage though, there's a black market for their services amongst the Dark Eldar.
And yes, using psyker powers has an additional danger for Eldar because if they mess up (I.e. trigger Perils of the Warp) there's an additional risk that Slaneesh slurps up their soul, but as I say, that's not why Dark Eldar suppress their abilities.
This is how we can be so sure that Dark Eldar soul/emotion eating and the way they can supercharge themselves with the stolen energy is not a psyker power, because it's the act of opening a gateway to the Warp for power, and doing so risking opening a way for daemons to bypass the Wards which is banned. As Dark Eldar use their psychic vampirism abilities in the Webway all the time, then we can be very sure that this isn't a psyker power.
Dark Eldar can hold the door that represents the psyker abilities closed. What they can't do is block off all the other little holes in their souls that Slaneesh can suck their souls out through. The Craftworld Eldar use the self-discipline/suppression of most of their personalities by the Paths to do that, but the Dark Eldar aren't willing to make that level of sacrifice. A Craftworld Eldar not on the Path of the Seer does hold all those little holes plus the door for their psyker powers closed.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Honestly? between 15 to 20 turns or so.
You do not know, but OOC there are multiple dimentions that many races use. Warp = Webway. Noosphere = Mechanicus, Subspace = Krork.
The C'tan and Necrons also know and make use of and can tear portals to other dimensions, though for travel, the Warp and secondly Subspace beat pretty much everything else.
Updated Charactor sheets. I think they should be up to date now. Let me know if they are not.
Votes closed. Will try and update today.
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All good as far as I can see
Nice to see the cortex implant only costs a single slot, I was worried that it would cost more. Seeing as we'd want to keep in on all the time, that would have been awkward.
Turn 8: A God Am I
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Colchis - 831.M30
The Shrine to the Worldsoul stood at the heart of Colchis, an ancient place of gathering and contemplation. It was a symbol of unity, where the collective spirit of the people resonated with the essence of their world. Lorgar chose this sacred place to address his followers, hoping to bring clarity to the misinterpretations of his teachings.
As he approached the shrine, the crowd erupted into cheers and chants. The air was thick with anticipation and fervor. Lorgar climbed onto the elevated platform, his presence commanding attention. He raised his hands, calling for silence, and the crowd gradually hushed, eager to hear his words.
"People of Colchis," Lorgar began, his voice carrying across the multitude, "I stand before you to clarify my philosophy, which has been misinterpreted by many. Our path is one of unity, faith, and a balance between progress and tradition. We must move forward, embracing innovation and growth, while honoring the wisdom of our ancestors."
His words were met with nods and murmurs of agreement. However, the crowd's fervor soon became evident. People began to push and shove, desperate to get closer to their revered leader. The situation quickly escalated as fights broke out, each person vying for a better position.
Lorgar's heart sank at the sight. He had hoped for a peaceful gathering, a chance to bring his people together. Instead, chaos was unfolding before his eyes. He gestured for his advisors to intervene and restore order, but their efforts were overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of the crowd.
Amidst the turmoil, a voice boomed from the throng, loud and fervent. A zealous preacher, with eyes alight with fanaticism, forced his way to the front. His voice carried above the din, amplified by the passion in his words.
"I am just a man named Tiberius, but I am here to speak the Truth." He said pointing an accusatory finger, "You are a god among us! Do away with this deception and accept your godhood! Show the people your true divinity!"
The declaration sent ripples through the crowd. Whispers turned to gasps, and eyes turned to Lorgar with a mixture of awe and confusion. The preacher's words were being broadcasted across the planet, ensuring that every ear on Colchis heard his proclamation.
Lorgar felt a chill run down his spine. This was not what he had intended. His philosophy was being twisted into something he had fought to avoid. He took a deep breath, knowing that his next words would be crucial.
He stepped forward, his gaze meeting the preacher's. The crowd fell into a tense silence, awaiting his response. The weight of the moment pressed down on him, but Lorgar knew he had to address this challenge head-on.
"Lorgar," the preacher continued, his voice dripping with conviction, "if you truly believe in unity and faith, you must embrace your godhood. The people need a divine leader, a beacon of hope and power. Denying this is denying your destiny!"
The air was charged with anticipation, the crowd hanging on Lorgar's every word. The entire planet watched, waiting for his response.
Lorgar took a deep breath, his eyes locking onto the zealous preacher's. The weight of his people's expectations bore down on him, but he knew he had to confront this head-on. He stepped forward, his voice calm but firm.
"People of Colchis," Lorgar began, his voice resonating with the strength of his conviction. "I understand your fervor and your need for a guiding light in these times of change. But I must be clear, I am not a god. I am your leader, your servant, and your fellow human being. My teachings are meant to inspire unity, faith, and progress, not to elevate me to divinity."
The preacher stepped forward, his eyes blazing with zeal.
"Lorgar, your humility is commendable, but it blinds you to the truth. Look around you! The miracles you've performed, the wisdom you possess, these are the marks of a god! Why deny what is evident to all of us?"
Lorgar shook his head, his expression resolute. "Tiberius, the power I wield and the wisdom I share are gifts, yes, but they do not make me a god. They are tools to guide our people towards a better future. To claim divinity would be to undermine the very principles I stand for."
Tiberius raised his hands, addressing the crowd. "Brothers and sisters, do you not see? Lorgar's humility is a testament to his divinity! Only a true god would deny his own godhood to teach us humility and faith. We must embrace him as our divine leader!"
The crowd murmured in agreement, the tension palpable. Lorgar felt a pang of frustration but remained composed. "Tiberius, divinity is not something to be taken lightly. It is not a mantle to be worn for the sake of power or adoration. True leadership comes from understanding one's own humanity, from recognizing the strengths and weaknesses we all share."
Tiberius pressed on, his voice rising with passion. "But Lorgar, you are more than human! Your words have moved mountains, your actions have brought peace and prosperity. These are not the deeds of a mere mortal. Embrace your godhood, and lead us to a new era of enlightenment!"
Lorgar stepped closer, his gaze unwavering. "If I were to accept your claims, Tiberius, what then? Would you place your faith in me, or in the ideals I represent? Would you follow my teachings because they resonate with truth, or because you believe me to be divine? The strength of our faith must come from within, not from a figurehead."
Tiberius hesitated, but his fervor did not wane. "We need a symbol, Lorgar, someone to rally behind, someone who embodies the ideals we strive for. You are that symbol. You are our god."
"I am your symbol, Tiberius, but not as a god. As a leader, as a teacher, as one of you. The strength of our people lies not in worshiping me, but in embracing the principles I teach. Unity, faith, and progress, these are the cornerstones of our future, and they require no divine intervention."
The crowd was silent, their eyes shifting between Lorgar and Tiberius, torn between the preacher's fervor and Lorgar's reasoned arguments. Lorgar continued, his voice growing softer but his determination unwavering.
"Look within yourselves, people of Colchis. See the potential you hold, the strength you possess. My role is to guide you, to help you realize that potential. Together, we can achieve greatness, but only if we stand as equals, not as worshippers and the worshiped."
Tiberius looked around, sensing the shift in the crowd. His voice was less certain now. "But Lorgar, the miracles…."
"Are acts of faith and wisdom," Lorgar interrupted gently. "They are not the sole domain of gods. They are within our reach, as long as we believe in ourselves and in each other. We do not need divinity to achieve greatness. We need unity, faith, and progress."
Tiberius took a deep breath, his gaze steadying. "Lorgar, I respect you deeply, but you cannot simply dismiss the miracles you and your family have performed. They are not just acts of faith and wisdom. They defy natural law; they are beyond the capabilities of any ordinary being."
Lorgar's eyes softened with understanding, but he remained resolute. "Tiberius, it is not my intention to dismiss them. Rather, I wish to show that these acts, miraculous as they may seem, are the result of our collective potential. It is our unity and our faith in each other that makes them possible."
Tiberius shook his head slowly, a faint smile on his lips. "Lorgar, let us consider these 'miracles' one by one. The resurrection of the World and all the people within. When the lands lay desolate, when our children lay slaughtered and all hope seemed lost, it was you who channeled the power of the Worldsoul to revive the earth, bringing life back to our barren home and our dead children. Can you truly say that was an act of mere faith and wisdom?"
The crowd murmured in agreement, their eyes flickering with memories of their rebirth. Lorgar inclined his head, acknowledging the point. "It was an act of faith, Tiberius, but not in the way you might think. It was our belief in ourselves and our connection to the Worldsoul that allowed such a feat. It was our collective strength."
Tiberius pressed on, his voice growing stronger. "And what of Lady Thalassa? You elevated her into divinity, granting her powers beyond any mortal's reach. She stands as a living testament to your divine power."
"Thalassa's elevation," Lorgar responded calmly, "was a result of her own inner strength and our support. We did not grant her power; we helped her realize the power she already possessed. It is the same for each of us."
Tiberius' eyes narrowed, his resolve hardening. "Then explain the banishing of the Shard of Winter. A being of immense power, an entity that brought untold suffering, banished by your hand. Can any ordinary leader achieve such a feat?"
Lorgar's gaze was unwavering. "The Shard of Winter was defeated through the unity and determination of our people. It was not I alone who banished it, but the collective will of those who stood with me. Together, we are capable of extraordinary things."
"And the fight with Settra's divine constructs?" Tiberius' voice rang out, each word a challenge. "Beings forged by the gods themselves, filled with divine power? Brought low by your might. Is that not the mark of divinity?"
Lorgar remained calm, his expression serene. "Settra's constructs were indeed formidable, but it was not my might alone that felled it. It was the combined effort of all who fought alongside me, their bravery, their unity, and their faith in our cause. These are the true sources of our strength."
The crowd was silent, the tension thick in the air. Tiberius saw his chance, his voice rising with renewed fervor. "Lorgar, you cannot deny that these acts are beyond ordinary. They are miracles, and they prove that you and your family possess a divine spark. To dismiss this is to deny the truth of what we have witnessed."
The people murmured in agreement, their eyes reflecting a mix of awe and confusion. Lorgar stood still, his expression thoughtful. He knew that Tiberius had reignited the debate, and the crowd's faith in the miraculous was strong. How did Tiberius know so much? The details of the fight with the Mask, the intricacies of their alliance with Settra, these were not common knowledge.
There was something about Tiberius, an unsettling familiarity. How did he know so much about the events that had transpired in the most secretive corners of their struggles?
Tiberius pressed his advantage, his voice carrying the conviction of one who believed he had found the truth. "We do not need to turn away from the divine, Lorgar. We need to embrace it, to recognize that the miracles we have witnessed are signs of a higher power at work through you. Unity, faith, and progress can coexist with reverence for the divine."
The crowd's murmurs grew louder, their hearts swayed by Tiberius' words. Lorgar knew the debate was far from over, and he would need to find a way to address their concerns without undermining the principles he held dear. The challenge was clear, and the path ahead uncertain.
The hall was filled with anticipation, the crowd waiting for Lorgar's response. But for now, Tiberius had the upper hand, and the future of their beliefs hung in the balance.
CHOOSE:
[] Write in: Speech to address this. How you write the speech will greatly alter the outcome.
ROLLS:
So I rolled a d100 for an event. You rolled a 12. I am literally laughing as this means I can go for maximum irony.
He is mirroring canon Lorgar and how Lorgar is being put in the place of Canon Emperor.
WARNING:
Try not to turn this into Lorgar's Monarchia, i.e use Words to convince him and do not make him kneel. That will not help. At all.
I will repeat. How you handle this is VERY IMPORTANT as it sets the stage for the Planetary Loyalty but also a potential Circle Member in Tiberius.
The Shrine to the Worldsoul stood at the heart of Colchis, an ancient place of gathering and contemplation. It was a symbol of unity, where the collective spirit of the people resonated with the essence of their world. Lorgar chose this sacred place to address his followers, hoping to bring clarity to the misinterpretations of his teachings.
As he approached the shrine, the crowd erupted into cheers and chants. The air was thick with anticipation and fervor. Lorgar climbed onto the elevated platform, his presence commanding attention. He raised his hands, calling for silence, and the crowd gradually hushed, eager to hear his words.
"People of Colchis," Lorgar began, his voice carrying across the multitude, "I stand before you to clarify my philosophy, which has been misinterpreted by many. Our path is one of unity, faith, and a balance between progress and tradition. We must move forward, embracing innovation and growth, while honoring the wisdom of our ancestors."
His words were met with nods and murmurs of agreement. However, the crowd's fervor soon became evident. People began to push and shove, desperate to get closer to their revered leader. The situation quickly escalated as fights broke out, each person vying for a better position.
Lorgar's heart sank at the sight. He had hoped for a peaceful gathering, a chance to bring his people together. Instead, chaos was unfolding before his eyes. He gestured for his advisors to intervene and restore order, but their efforts were overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of the crowd.
Amidst the turmoil, a voice boomed from the throng, loud and fervent. A zealous preacher, with eyes alight with fanaticism, forced his way to the front. His voice carried above the din, amplified by the passion in his words.
"I am just a man named Tiberius, but I am here to speak the Truth." He said pointing an accusatory finger, "You are a god among us! Do away with this deception and accept your godhood! Show the people your true divinity!"
The declaration sent ripples through the crowd. Whispers turned to gasps, and eyes turned to Lorgar with a mixture of awe and confusion. The preacher's words were being broadcasted across the planet, ensuring that every ear on Colchis heard his proclamation.
Lorgar felt a chill run down his spine. This was not what he had intended. His philosophy was being twisted into something he had fought to avoid. He took a deep breath, knowing that his next words would be crucial.
He stepped forward, his gaze meeting the preacher's. The crowd fell into a tense silence, awaiting his response. The weight of the moment pressed down on him, but Lorgar knew he had to address this challenge head-on.
"Lorgar," the preacher continued, his voice dripping with conviction, "if you truly believe in unity and faith, you must embrace your godhood. The people need a divine leader, a beacon of hope and power. Denying this is denying your destiny!"
The air was charged with anticipation, the crowd hanging on Lorgar's every word. The entire planet watched, waiting for his response.
Lorgar took a deep breath, his eyes locking onto the zealous preacher's. The weight of his people's expectations bore down on him, but he knew he had to confront this head-on. He stepped forward, his voice calm but firm.
"People of Colchis," Lorgar began, his voice resonating with the strength of his conviction. "I understand your fervor and your need for a guiding light in these times of change. But I must be clear, I am not a god. I am your leader, your servant, and your fellow human being. My teachings are meant to inspire unity, faith, and progress, not to elevate me to divinity."
The preacher stepped forward, his eyes blazing with zeal.
"Lorgar, your humility is commendable, but it blinds you to the truth. Look around you! The miracles you've performed, the wisdom you possess, these are the marks of a god! Why deny what is evident to all of us?"
Lorgar shook his head, his expression resolute. "Tiberius, the power I wield and the wisdom I share are gifts, yes, but they do not make me a god. They are tools to guide our people towards a better future. To claim divinity would be to undermine the very principles I stand for."
Tiberius raised his hands, addressing the crowd. "Brothers and sisters, do you not see? Lorgar's humility is a testament to his divinity! Only a true god would deny his own godhood to teach us humility and faith. We must embrace him as our divine leader!"
The crowd murmured in agreement, the tension palpable. Lorgar felt a pang of frustration but remained composed. "Tiberius, divinity is not something to be taken lightly. It is not a mantle to be worn for the sake of power or adoration. True leadership comes from understanding one's own humanity, from recognizing the strengths and weaknesses we all share."
Tiberius pressed on, his voice rising with passion. "But Lorgar, you are more than human! Your words have moved mountains, your actions have brought peace and prosperity. These are not the deeds of a mere mortal. Embrace your godhood, and lead us to a new era of enlightenment!"
Lorgar stepped closer, his gaze unwavering. "If I were to accept your claims, Tiberius, what then? Would you place your faith in me, or in the ideals I represent? Would you follow my teachings because they resonate with truth, or because you believe me to be divine? The strength of our faith must come from within, not from a figurehead."
Tiberius hesitated, but his fervor did not wane. "We need a symbol, Lorgar, someone to rally behind, someone who embodies the ideals we strive for. You are that symbol. You are our god."
"I am your symbol, Tiberius, but not as a god. As a leader, as a teacher, as one of you. The strength of our people lies not in worshiping me, but in embracing the principles I teach. Unity, faith, and progress, these are the cornerstones of our future, and they require no divine intervention."
The crowd was silent, their eyes shifting between Lorgar and Tiberius, torn between the preacher's fervor and Lorgar's reasoned arguments. Lorgar continued, his voice growing softer but his determination unwavering.
"Look within yourselves, people of Colchis. See the potential you hold, the strength you possess. My role is to guide you, to help you realize that potential. Together, we can achieve greatness, but only if we stand as equals, not as worshippers and the worshiped."
Tiberius looked around, sensing the shift in the crowd. His voice was less certain now. "But Lorgar, the miracles…."
"Are acts of faith and wisdom," Lorgar interrupted gently. "They are not the sole domain of gods. They are within our reach, as long as we believe in ourselves and in each other. We do not need divinity to achieve greatness. We need unity, faith, and progress."
Tiberius took a deep breath, his gaze steadying. "Lorgar, I respect you deeply, but you cannot simply dismiss the miracles you and your family have performed. They are not just acts of faith and wisdom. They defy natural law; they are beyond the capabilities of any ordinary being."
Lorgar's eyes softened with understanding, but he remained resolute. "Tiberius, it is not my intention to dismiss them. Rather, I wish to show that these acts, miraculous as they may seem, are the result of our collective potential. It is our unity and our faith in each other that makes them possible."
Tiberius shook his head slowly, a faint smile on his lips. "Lorgar, let us consider these 'miracles' one by one. The resurrection of the World and all the people within. When the lands lay desolate, when our children lay slaughtered and all hope seemed lost, it was you who channeled the power of the Worldsoul to revive the earth, bringing life back to our barren home and our dead children. Can you truly say that was an act of mere faith and wisdom?"
The crowd murmured in agreement, their eyes flickering with memories of their rebirth. Lorgar inclined his head, acknowledging the point. "It was an act of faith, Tiberius, but not in the way you might think. It was our belief in ourselves and our connection to the Worldsoul that allowed such a feat. It was our collective strength."
Tiberius pressed on, his voice growing stronger. "And what of Lady Thalassa? You elevated her into divinity, granting her powers beyond any mortal's reach. She stands as a living testament to your divine power."
"Thalassa's elevation," Lorgar responded calmly, "was a result of her own inner strength and our support. We did not grant her power; we helped her realize the power she already possessed. It is the same for each of us."
Tiberius' eyes narrowed, his resolve hardening. "Then explain the banishing of the Shard of Winter. A being of immense power, an entity that brought untold suffering, banished by your hand. Can any ordinary leader achieve such a feat?"
Lorgar's gaze was unwavering. "The Shard of Winter was defeated through the unity and determination of our people. It was not I alone who banished it, but the collective will of those who stood with me. Together, we are capable of extraordinary things."
"And the fight with Settra's divine constructs?" Tiberius' voice rang out, each word a challenge. "Beings forged by the gods themselves, filled with divine power? Brought low by your might. Is that not the mark of divinity?"
Lorgar remained calm, his expression serene. "Settra's constructs were indeed formidable, but it was not my might alone that felled it. It was the combined effort of all who fought alongside me, their bravery, their unity, and their faith in our cause. These are the true sources of our strength."
The crowd was silent, the tension thick in the air. Tiberius saw his chance, his voice rising with renewed fervor. "Lorgar, you cannot deny that these acts are beyond ordinary. They are miracles, and they prove that you and your family possess a divine spark. To dismiss this is to deny the truth of what we have witnessed."
The people murmured in agreement, their eyes reflecting a mix of awe and confusion. Lorgar stood still, his expression thoughtful. He knew that Tiberius had reignited the debate, and the crowd's faith in the miraculous was strong. How did Tiberius know so much? The details of the fight with the Mask, the intricacies of their alliance with Settra, these were not common knowledge.
There was something about Tiberius, an unsettling familiarity. How did he know so much about the events that had transpired in the most secretive corners of their struggles?
Tiberius pressed his advantage, his voice carrying the conviction of one who believed he had found the truth. "We do not need to turn away from the divine, Lorgar. We need to embrace it, to recognize that the miracles we have witnessed are signs of a higher power at work through you. Unity, faith, and progress can coexist with reverence for the divine."
The crowd's murmurs grew louder, their hearts swayed by Tiberius' words. Lorgar knew the debate was far from over, and he would need to find a way to address their concerns without undermining the principles he held dear. The challenge was clear, and the path ahead uncertain.
The hall was filled with anticipation, the crowd waiting for Lorgar's response. But for now, Tiberius had the upper hand, and the future of their beliefs hung in the balance.
CHOOSE:
[] Write in: Speech to address this. How you write the speech will greatly alter the outcome.
ROLLS:
So I rolled a d100 for an event. You rolled a 12. I am literally laughing as this means I can go for maximum irony.
He is mirroring canon Lorgar and how Lorgar is being put in the place of Canon Emperor.
WARNING:
Try not to turn this into Lorgar's Monarchia, i.e use Words to convince him and do not make him kneel. That will not help. At all.
I will repeat. How you handle this is VERY IMPORTANT as it sets the stage for the Planetary Loyalty but also a potential Circle Member in Tiberius.
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Oh shit we got to make sure this does not turn into a god emperor situation
of fucking course. Okay I shall try, give me a few minutes.
[X] Plan 'God' is in the eye of the Beholder
-[X] "What is a God Tiberius? Are you a god? Surely not for you are a man of woman born. You are not of the correct, 'family' was that the term you used? What a strange thing for gods to do, come in families like men." Wave away the answer as though it is insignificant to the wider point. "And yet you have a soul and that soul is immortal, it transcends this vessel of flesh, this body trapped in space and time, it will pass into eternity. Look around you and you will see the faces of many men and women who revered their ancestors together with the spirits of the land. Look around you and you will find many men and women who through the defeat of the Shard of Winter met their ancestors as once more living breathing folk under the sun. So then are they gods or are they men? Are you a god? Are we all gods-in-the-making?" Pause for silence, but not actually long enough to let him answer, steamroller him. "Ah but I see the answer in your eyes, wondering at the power I and my... family share." Smile at the crowd in a way that transmits to those from more representative eras that you share their concerns. "To a babe still crawling a child that has learned to toddle and an adult seem much the same, wonderful and terrible as they loom above, but in time, perhaps a great deal of time, that child will rise to his feet and they will walk their own path. So it is with all of mankind."
-[X] Use Gaslighting to invert any intimacy he may have to the concept of embodied divinity
-[X] Spend a willpower for an extra success.
-[X] "What is a God Tiberius? Are you a god? Surely not for you are a man of woman born. You are not of the correct, 'family' was that the term you used? What a strange thing for gods to do, come in families like men." Wave away the answer as though it is insignificant to the wider point. "And yet you have a soul and that soul is immortal, it transcends this vessel of flesh, this body trapped in space and time, it will pass into eternity. Look around you and you will see the faces of many men and women who revered their ancestors together with the spirits of the land. Look around you and you will find many men and women who through the defeat of the Shard of Winter met their ancestors as once more living breathing folk under the sun. So then are they gods or are they men? Are you a god? Are we all gods-in-the-making?" Pause for silence, but not actually long enough to let him answer, steamroller him. "Ah but I see the answer in your eyes, wondering at the power I and my... family share." Smile at the crowd in a way that transmits to those from more representative eras that you share their concerns. "To a babe still crawling a child that has learned to toddle and an adult seem much the same, wonderful and terrible as they loom above, but in time, perhaps a great deal of time, that child will rise to his feet and they will walk their own path. So it is with all of mankind."
-[X] Use Gaslighting to invert any intimacy he may have to the concept of embodied divinity
-[X] Spend a willpower for an extra success.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
You are not there unfortunately. Only Lorgar.
Ah I see, one moment while I look at his charms.
- Location
- Arcadia
Irony, indeed.
Hm, without Fan Morgal to help Lorgar with his Charms, Lorgar's options are more... limited. It is uncertain if any of Lorgar's current Mythos powers could help in this instant.
It is very concerning, though. How does Tiberius know all the details of the aforementioned quests? Those matters were very private, reserved to the party alone.
Hm, without Fan Morgal to help Lorgar with his Charms, Lorgar's options are more... limited. It is uncertain if any of Lorgar's current Mythos powers could help in this instant.
It is very concerning, though. How does Tiberius know all the details of the aforementioned quests? Those matters were very private, reserved to the party alone.
I Am not GOD for I' m not all knowing
I am not God for I'm not all present
I'm not God for I'm not all powerful
I am not God for I'm not all present
I'm not God for I'm not all powerful
Plan edited to include Gaslighting if applicable, we do not want this guy hating Lorgar just theism and a willpower thrown in for good measure.
That only works on people in whose traditions God is meant to be all of those things, to which most of these people likely do not belong. It is easier to pivot into 'all men bear a spark of what we would recognize as divine so to the extent that there are gods all of us are it'.
That only works on people in whose traditions God is meant to be all of those things, to which most of these people likely do not belong. It is easier to pivot into 'all men bear a spark of what we would recognize as divine so to the extent that there are gods all of us are it'.
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This is ironically like when Lorgar worshipped big E as a god, except in this case the Not-god dealt with the zealot much better.
And yes this guy is very sus, likely some ploy by Chaos or Ebon Dragon or some malicious entity to have a laugh.
And yes this guy is very sus, likely some ploy by Chaos or Ebon Dragon or some malicious entity to have a laugh.
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- Location
- Arcadia
Tiberius is more than he seems. He should not know all these details. Lorgar must tread delicately.
Regardless, hm, it is an excellent chance to further steer Lorgar towards the Philosopher Aspect.
Perhaps it will hopefully become a proper Socratic dialogue.
In terms of philosophy, hm, is there anything from Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and the others that could be incorporated here? Perhaps something from the existentialist movement. Two from opposite ends, even. Perhaps something from Kierkegaard, whose focus was Christian existentialism. The other luminary would be Jean-Paul Sartre, whose paradigm was that of atheistic existentialism.
Regardless, hm, it is an excellent chance to further steer Lorgar towards the Philosopher Aspect.
Perhaps it will hopefully become a proper Socratic dialogue.
In terms of philosophy, hm, is there anything from Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and the others that could be incorporated here? Perhaps something from the existentialist movement. Two from opposite ends, even. Perhaps something from Kierkegaard, whose focus was Christian existentialism. The other luminary would be Jean-Paul Sartre, whose paradigm was that of atheistic existentialism.
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reminder of the general outline of Lorgar's and Fan's beliefs
TLDR: the idea state of humanity is one that realized its full potential that is connected with the physical and spiritual; its when we are connected and interact with the spirits in unity but can stand on our own two feet and walk amongst them them as equals, do not be denied our potential, that's what humans stand as. To LIMIT humanity with just Gods goes against what Lorgar is preaching, yes they exist and yes they are powerful, but humanity shouldn't rely on them; some gods can be good and it would be nice to interact and be friends with them, but other times gods can be evil, as seen with the Dark gods of Chaos. the Best case you can argue that Lorgar is "divine" is if you define "divinity" as the realization of human potential, and if that's the case Lorgar isn't a god cause he would be one of many humans, yes he may be a trailblazer, a for runner, that kid who ran ahead the rest of the group because he saw something cool ahead on the road, but ultimately a human with potential like everyone else. if Lorgar is a god then everyone can be a "God" as well, and that runs against the idea that humans have potential that shouldn't be limited by Gods.
TLDR of the TLDR: humans are cooler than the idea of "God" or "divinity", not not denying gods exist but some are good while some are bad, and even if you continue with Lorgar being divine, that's just saying a kid knows more about life than you so your calling yourself stupid and wrong and that your argument is invalid with your own reasoning . . . please don't call yourself stupid or look down on your self
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enlightenment and illumination should help right for a x6 multiplier
. . . shit
wasn't prophet one of the potential aspects we could get that Daemon Lorgar wants use to get? i don't' want to get an undesired aspect by winning an debate
i'm going to assume the cult has a major/maxed out intimacy with faith, but can we use RS to dirrect their general belief and s
does the cult count as subordinates? i want that minus 3 difficulty
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- Location
- Arcadia
Right, this one is going to take a while.
Hm, so, obviously, this topic heavily involves the philosophy of religion, which should be noted as being distinct and different from religious philosophy. The philosophy of religion asks questions about the nature of religion as a whole, while religious philosophy only analyzes the problems of a specific system of belief.
The philosophy of religion is also different from theology, since the philosophy of religion scrutinizes the nature of religion as a whole rather than from the paradigm of a specific religious system.
Both believers and non-believers can objectively engage in a discourse of the philosophy of religion.
The philosophy of religion involves many other branches of philosophy. There would be metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, logic, aesthetics, and the philosophies of language and science, to name some.
For the philosophy of religion, there are certain basic premises, questions, themes, problems. There is the matter of ultimate reality, the "supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality". In Western religions, such conceptions usually manifest in various forms of theism. For Eastern religions, there are multiple theistic and non-theistic conceptions of that Ultimate. Therefore, one can sort religions by whether they are theistic or non-theistic.
Historically, monotheism can be divided into 3 broad categories. They are Greek, Semitic, and Hindu. For Greek monotheism, the premise is that the world has always existed. It does not hold to divine providence or creationism. Semitic monotheism, on the other hand, asserts that the world was created by a God at a particular time, and that this God acts in the world. Finally, there is Indian monotheism. It espouses that the world is without beginning, but God's act of creation sustains the world.
As for the non-theistic path, there would be such religions as Jainism, which takes the position of a dualistic paradigm. Everything that exists is a combination of matter and jiva (souls). That existence is not dependent upon a supreme deity. Then, there are multiple Buddhist perspectives. In Theravada Buddhism, there is the belief that the only truly extant things are dharmas, events that are transitional, along with interdependent relations. Madhyamaka Buddhism, on the other hand, believe that the ultimate reality is shunyata (emptiness). Yogacara Buddhism believes that ultimate reality would be mental phenomena. Where Indian philosophical discourse is concerned, Hindu philosophers argue for monotheism, while Buddhists argue against Ishvara, that conception of a creator god.
As to Taoism, there are many positions about Tao, the ultimate reality. Various Taoist philosophers had different positions. 王弼, Wang Bi, with the courtesy name 輔嗣 ,Fusi, argued that it is 無, Wu (nothingness). 郭象, Guo Xiang, argued against that position. Instead, he asserted that it is zi sheng, "spontaneous self-production", and zi hua, "spontaneous self-transformation".
However, Jains and Buddhists do not reject the existence of divine beings entirely. They simply refute the premise of an omnipotent creator deity as posited by monotheists.
The next post will move on to knowledge and belief.
Hm, so, obviously, this topic heavily involves the philosophy of religion, which should be noted as being distinct and different from religious philosophy. The philosophy of religion asks questions about the nature of religion as a whole, while religious philosophy only analyzes the problems of a specific system of belief.
The philosophy of religion is also different from theology, since the philosophy of religion scrutinizes the nature of religion as a whole rather than from the paradigm of a specific religious system.
Both believers and non-believers can objectively engage in a discourse of the philosophy of religion.
The philosophy of religion involves many other branches of philosophy. There would be metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, logic, aesthetics, and the philosophies of language and science, to name some.
For the philosophy of religion, there are certain basic premises, questions, themes, problems. There is the matter of ultimate reality, the "supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality". In Western religions, such conceptions usually manifest in various forms of theism. For Eastern religions, there are multiple theistic and non-theistic conceptions of that Ultimate. Therefore, one can sort religions by whether they are theistic or non-theistic.
Historically, monotheism can be divided into 3 broad categories. They are Greek, Semitic, and Hindu. For Greek monotheism, the premise is that the world has always existed. It does not hold to divine providence or creationism. Semitic monotheism, on the other hand, asserts that the world was created by a God at a particular time, and that this God acts in the world. Finally, there is Indian monotheism. It espouses that the world is without beginning, but God's act of creation sustains the world.
As for the non-theistic path, there would be such religions as Jainism, which takes the position of a dualistic paradigm. Everything that exists is a combination of matter and jiva (souls). That existence is not dependent upon a supreme deity. Then, there are multiple Buddhist perspectives. In Theravada Buddhism, there is the belief that the only truly extant things are dharmas, events that are transitional, along with interdependent relations. Madhyamaka Buddhism, on the other hand, believe that the ultimate reality is shunyata (emptiness). Yogacara Buddhism believes that ultimate reality would be mental phenomena. Where Indian philosophical discourse is concerned, Hindu philosophers argue for monotheism, while Buddhists argue against Ishvara, that conception of a creator god.
As to Taoism, there are many positions about Tao, the ultimate reality. Various Taoist philosophers had different positions. 王弼, Wang Bi, with the courtesy name 輔嗣 ,Fusi, argued that it is 無, Wu (nothingness). 郭象, Guo Xiang, argued against that position. Instead, he asserted that it is zi sheng, "spontaneous self-production", and zi hua, "spontaneous self-transformation".
However, Jains and Buddhists do not reject the existence of divine beings entirely. They simply refute the premise of an omnipotent creator deity as posited by monotheists.
The next post will move on to knowledge and belief.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Yes, but keep in mind, Social is not Mindcontrol.
I mean there were a bunch of undead monstrosities there for every fight, some of those at least were raised into regular people.
minus 3 difficulty lets go
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its also funny how this dude that believes lorgar as "Divine" makes himself a heretic committing blasphemy going against said "Divine" and his words
"just because you say you believe in me doesn't mean you actually believe in me, your actions paint the opposite message"
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