She automatically learned all the rites that Lorgar didn't already make.
Whether they can make some more is an interesting question.
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
- Start date
- Crossover
She automatically learned all the rites that Lorgar didn't already make.
Whether they can make some more is an interesting question.
I wonder... does Dharok know any daemon names? I mean he used to be something like a Planetary Everchosen and he was a sorcerer. Sure initially he would not have that information since the Chaos Gods claimed that part of his soul... but then they handed it back to him, so he should know the names of any daemons he knew as a Chaos Champion.
That's true. The other option is Zabius. He did have a daemon bound to a daemonhost, which may need its name, so he may well know the names of others as well.
Was just doing some playing about with the production system:
Say we want to create 240 of our Aegis armours a year.
They're:
Cost-effectiveness 3
Alternative to Exotic Components 2
Production Ease
We can make 4 for every T3 Resource point spent
Each needs three exotic components
And every T3 factory can make 3 a year
This would require:
60 T3 resource factories/mines
720 pieces of Exotic Infrastructure
80 Aegis Armour factories
Now, this would be impossible to build personally. We're going to need to mobilise Colchis' population to do an enormous amount of construction for us.
Once we get the basic governance and philosophy sorted out, I think we're going to need to have Lorgar spend a lot of effort building and expanding organisations focused on industry and construction. He may be less good at this than Guilliman, but he's still the best we've got. And he may be able to substitute Gifts, Telepathy and Precognition (and possibly Cyberkinesis and Cyberpathy in future) for some of what Guilliman does by just being that good.
I'm assuming that we're going to have something like 'world' or 'institution' points, representing the industrial potential of the planetary population that we can use to build these mines/factories and exotics infrastructure, probably with a different cost for different tiers of factory or mine.
If we can, we may also need to take character actions to improve our industrial potential and possibly also its natural growth rate, whether that's by directly VEE-ing/Fleshcrafting key civilians to be more competent, or by developing genetor/bionic augmentation packages* and the infrastructure for them to be widely applied.
Part of our problem is that we're on a really short timescale before the Emperor shows up. Given the massive range of equipment we're going to be wanting to make; we we're going to need to get to the point where we can build many hundreds of facilities of various kinds a year.
* and if we can get to the point of being able to make Tech Priests, and Shaman-Psykers at scale, Precognitive, Telepathic leaders with a couple of useful Gifts could be very, very effective.
Say we want to create 240 of our Aegis armours a year.
They're:
Cost-effectiveness 3
Alternative to Exotic Components 2
Production Ease
We can make 4 for every T3 Resource point spent
Each needs three exotic components
And every T3 factory can make 3 a year
This would require:
60 T3 resource factories/mines
720 pieces of Exotic Infrastructure
80 Aegis Armour factories
Now, this would be impossible to build personally. We're going to need to mobilise Colchis' population to do an enormous amount of construction for us.
Once we get the basic governance and philosophy sorted out, I think we're going to need to have Lorgar spend a lot of effort building and expanding organisations focused on industry and construction. He may be less good at this than Guilliman, but he's still the best we've got. And he may be able to substitute Gifts, Telepathy and Precognition (and possibly Cyberkinesis and Cyberpathy in future) for some of what Guilliman does by just being that good.
I'm assuming that we're going to have something like 'world' or 'institution' points, representing the industrial potential of the planetary population that we can use to build these mines/factories and exotics infrastructure, probably with a different cost for different tiers of factory or mine.
If we can, we may also need to take character actions to improve our industrial potential and possibly also its natural growth rate, whether that's by directly VEE-ing/Fleshcrafting key civilians to be more competent, or by developing genetor/bionic augmentation packages* and the infrastructure for them to be widely applied.
Part of our problem is that we're on a really short timescale before the Emperor shows up. Given the massive range of equipment we're going to be wanting to make; we we're going to need to get to the point where we can build many hundreds of facilities of various kinds a year.
* and if we can get to the point of being able to make Tech Priests, and Shaman-Psykers at scale, Precognitive, Telepathic leaders with a couple of useful Gifts could be very, very effective.
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Out of curiosity, since we have people across eras after Cybernetic Revolt does that mean some people may meet their great grandfather or their descendants? Wouldn't that pollute the gene pool if you unknowingly sleep with your own great great granddaughter or create whole clans and dynasties?
Not really, it will be culturally problematic, but a person has more genes in common with their third cousin than their great great grandfather and those marry all the time (relatively speaking).
- Location
- Pee Pee Poo Poo
Don't we have unlimited resources? Why can't we just spam things?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan Space Marine Socials, Mech Organics, Exalted Shintai and Wildshaping
-[X] Adorjan
-[X] Lorgar
--[X] Mind Partition 4 XP
--[X] The World is Mine 10 XP
--[X] Voice of the Primarch 10 XP
--[X] Bank 4 XP
-[X] Dharok
--[X] 6 dot Dhrama's Voice 18 XP
--[X] Precogntion 1 2 XP
--[X] Bank 3 XP
-[X] Thalassa
--[X] Lore of Flesh 4 40 XP
--[X] Guiding Hand of Djeheuty 8 XP
-[X] Bank 1 XP
-[X] Fan
--[X] Essence Dissecting Stare 8 XP
--[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition 8 XP
--[X] Will Crushing Force 8 XP
--[X] Heuristic Logos Shintai 8 XP
--[X] Code of Conduct 6 XP
-- [X] Bank 11 XP
-[X] Adorjan
-[X] Lorgar
--[X] Mind Partition 4 XP
--[X] The World is Mine 10 XP
--[X] Voice of the Primarch 10 XP
--[X] Bank 4 XP
-[X] Dharok
--[X] 6 dot Dhrama's Voice 18 XP
--[X] Precogntion 1 2 XP
--[X] Bank 3 XP
-[X] Thalassa
--[X] Lore of Flesh 4 40 XP
--[X] Guiding Hand of Djeheuty 8 XP
-[X] Bank 1 XP
-[X] Fan
--[X] Essence Dissecting Stare 8 XP
--[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition 8 XP
--[X] Will Crushing Force 8 XP
--[X] Heuristic Logos Shintai 8 XP
--[X] Code of Conduct 6 XP
-- [X] Bank 11 XP
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
I mean, anyone who isn't completely up their own ass would realize the way Emps was handling parenting Magnus when Magnus was delving into Sorcery would eventually result in Magnus deciding to disregard Emps saying no and refusing to elaborate.
Like seriously, what did he think was going to happen when he told his effectively teenage son to cut out the Sorcery 'because I said so'?
I get it really I do but people keep saying that all of the primarks are like 200 some years old by the time the end of the Crusaders around they're not children by any stretch of the imagination. The reason the Emperor didn't feel like a father to any of them is because he's not their fucking dad most of them had parents still have parents by the end of the Crusade the ones that didn't have parents grew up already by the time he found them they were grown men the second he found them.
I agree that he didn't explain the dangers of sorcery adequately but let's not pretend like these grown men are incapable of taking responsibility for their own decisions
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Yeah, the Primarchs age weirdly and act like teenagers in the Horus Heresy books.
Therefore, I'm comfortable calling them teenagers. . .
Yeah, but did the emperor realize that fact? I mean at some point between the super science hormones, the supernatural Achilles Heel that comes with being a demigod and his own actions the whole thing blew up, but that is not the same thing as fucking up while raising Jimmy the random 15 year old, there is a cultural and historical record for how you are meant to raise Jimmy, there are books on teen psychology. Old Emps did not have books on how to raise the eighteen flavors of clones he made of himself. Not to say he did not fuck up, he did, but it was more in not understanding and not listening to his sons (in some versions of canon I would say not even considering them his sons, just tools, but that is not what we are going with here). This is not as incomprehensible a fuck up as if they had been random teenagers.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
Dude, I've never raised kids and I could tell you how badly that was gonna blow up in Emps' face.
I refuse to believe that in all of his thousands of years of life, Big E never met a teenager.
That leaves Emps being a narcissistic douchebag who thinks he's always right as the explanation.
Which is exactly how the Horus Heresy books portray him, so there's a lot more textual evidence for that than some Destined Golden Path. . .
My point was not that he has never met a teenager, but that he did not conceptualize the primarchs as teenagers. Personally I agree with you on the idea that he never even saw them as people, much less his sons, they were living weapons to be used and disposed of, something that is structurally supported with the 'lost' primarchs, strongly implied to have been purged and his later interactions with Reboute in 40K... but that is not the universe we are in right now. The GM has gone with a more humane version of the Emperor, as evidenced by the interludes, if we continue to treat him like the sociopathic monster he is in canon, we are going to inflict a handicap on ourselves.
I just don't buy the teenage idea at all. Being a teenager is going through physical and emotional development the primark's finished aging at 20 and most of them are either rulers or have been raised to be rulers for anywhere from 20 to 100 Years by the time they first meet the emperor. Giliman he's running a multiplanetary Empire by the time he is found Magnus is the I think triarch is the word but he is the ruler of his world same with Russ, Khan, Corvus, Kurze, Dorn, Vulcan, Perturabo, Manus, Fulgrim, Sanguinius. To treat them as children in any sense is to completely belittle the fact that they had done what on one world what took him a century to do on Earth. The didn't conquer the worlds were either found early enough (Horus) Rallied and raised the rebellion that nearly took the whole planet (Mortarian) or was a slave that has a dark age of Technology lobotomy device on his head thoroughly limiting his ability to both plan and feel things that aren't anger (Angron).
The only one that can even be partially argued to be a child or a teenager when the emperor found them is Horus and for obvious reasons that creates a relationship where he is not capable of actually striking him down before Horus clubs his fucking body apart.
KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
They act just like petulant teenagers, though.
You have to look not at what they do but at how they act, and what they talk like. They act and talk just like my moody teenage cousin, especially Magnus.
They are emotionally stunted to that level, likely part of their design to avoid some sort of potential problem down the line.
We have no cap to the number of mines/resource factories we can build, which means there's no cap to the number of end product factories using those resources we can sustain from domestic production without being reliant on imports.
That doesn't mean we don't need to build the mines and factories and exotics production infrastructure. It just means we can kill building more forever.
I don't want to be that guy but sometimes people are just shitty. Some of them act like 'teenagers' some of them are very explicitly putting an act so they can extract some form of tactical advantage (Russ). To call some of them immature might be correct but to call them teenagers is just wrong. Maybe you're remembering something I don't but I remember all of the primarks having different reactions to pretty much everything that happens with some being outright crazy some of them being completely reasonable and the others just kind of being on that gradient.
Magnus has a bad case of Emperor syndrome which is to say in some books he's written as the grieving son turned demon who threw his deals have wrought things he could never imagine others write him as the Cyclops a monster unrepentant and undeserving of Mercy or consideration.
One and all Primarchs just show that they are people and people just tend to be on a gradient of how mature they act how they decide to deal with stimuli, Dorn despite being functionally speaking a brick wall still has moments where his anger overcomes him where his beliefs in the Loyalty of his brothers overcomes the evidence before his own eyes.
Perturabo is a strict meticulous person we've all met people like him someone who knows what they're talking about and would definitively prefer that you not fuck with them what supposed to be doing. The fact he smashes Fulgrim face in for his Legion and the chaos monsters that He commands show no discipline or order and just Rampage around is completely in character despite his strict meticulous persona. None of the primarchs act the way you were describing at all times and that's rather on purpose I think none of them are meant to be present as children.
Nooo way! Holy Emperor's laboratory-made, genetically modified, surgically altered, hypnotically indoctrinated transhuman warriors would never abuse mortals just for being mortals!
And his experimentally wrought, psykically designed, emotionally lobotomized, made-to-order generals being given only three solar years to mature has certainly not resulted in emotionally damaged, mentally unstable, morally impaired, socially maladjusted almost-humans who would find it difficult to relate to normal humans. But I suppose it was expedient, considering his intended purpose.
I imagine Fan and Mal and big E are gonna butt heads alot like three old grumpling men😆
And his experimentally wrought, psykically designed, emotionally lobotomized, made-to-order generals being given only three solar years to mature has certainly not resulted in emotionally damaged, mentally unstable, morally impaired, socially maladjusted almost-humans who would find it difficult to relate to normal humans. But I suppose it was expedient, considering his intended purpose.
I imagine Fan and Mal and big E are gonna butt heads alot like three old grumpling men😆
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One of the things that Lorgar could probably benefit from is other teachers beyond Fan. Although they may have had their memories eroded, we may be able to find some of the exemplars of DAoT Colchis and ask them to work with Lorgsr so he learns from them, possibly after trying to VEE them to help recover any additional memories
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Hmm, since finding Lorgar seems to have become a priority for the Emperor, that'll probably change when the other Primarchs are found(if he's on his way to Nocturne, he's found Horus, Leman Russ, Ferrus Manus, Fulgrim, and is about to find Vulkan) so that'll be interesting. Dorn was found the same year as Vulkan, and Guilliman the year after that, so that probably won't change, but the others are probably up in the air now.
If Lorgar is found before Pertubaro, hopefully he can knock some sense into him when he tries to have his Legion decimated.
If Lorgar is found before Pertubaro, hopefully he can knock some sense into him when he tries to have his Legion decimated.
If we get a move on, it's possible that we could find some of them first. There may be other good reasons to have Lorgar be a moving target and get the Emperor to intercept him when he's not on Colchiss.
Realistically I do not think that will matter as far as timing, he has a ping on Cholchis' general location, as soon as he finds the planet someone is going to tell him where Lorgar is, or he is just going to read their mind if he is feeling rude. No one but Fan can keep him out of their heads.
It depends, if he gets a new fix on Lorgar's location he may change his destination to wherever he is and never go to Colchis.
It depends on how noisy Lorgar's activity is when he's off-planet. For example, if we somehow make a beeline for Prospero and then Lorgar and Thalassa help Magnus make his own Sons, then detect and defeat the Fleshchange, that's probably a big enough deal that he'd head there instead.