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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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[X] Plan Space Marine Socials, Mech Organics, Exalted Shintai and Sorcery
-[X] Adorjan
-[X] Lorgar
--[X] Mind Partition 4 XP
--[X] The World is Mine 10 XP
--[X] Voice of the Primarch 10 XP
--[X] Bank 4 XP
-[X] Dharok
--[X] 6 dot Dhrama's Voice 18 XP
--[X] Summoning, Warding and Binding 1 2 XP
--[X] Precognition 1 2 XP
--[X] Bank 1 XP
-[X] Thalassa
--[X] Lore of Flesh 4 40 XP
--[X] Guiding Hand of Djeheuty 8 XP
-[X] Bank 1 XP
-[X] Fan
--[X] Essence Dissecting Stare 8 XP
--[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition 8 XP
--[X] Will Crushing Force 8 XP
--[X] Heuristic Logos Shintai 8 XP
--[X] Code of Honor 6 XP
-- [X] Bank 11 XP

Give Dharok as much sorcery as he could buy, he can grab the rest with VEE, the rest is the same
 
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Yzarc said:
How I am ruling this is that only when you roll against someone who is trying to make you go against your code or roll willpower to uphold your code, do you get the +2 dice.

So this for example, would not apply to Wyldshaping. Because as a 2 Dot merit, it makes no sense otherwise.
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Hmm, I was a bit more hopeful about the 'upholding the code' bit, as if the code says to fight Chaos, then we'd get the bonus die when taking actions to oppose Chaos.

Of course, the reason the code merit is cheap is that you actually have to do what the code says, so if it says oppose Chaos and you'd prefer not to in this circumstance you still have to anyway,

So; building a factory with Wyldshaping wouldn't count. Building a manse as part of a giant ward against chaos might.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Give Dharok as much sorcery as he could buy, he can grab the rest with VEE, the rest is the same
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As Fan can get him from Path 1 to 5 in a single use, I'd prefer to get him one dot rather than two. Then another time a second use of VEE can get that to 5.

However, on this is planet the terraforming integration means that shamans don't need Weather Control or Maelström.

That's why I go with Precog 1, as Precog is something else that can be very useful (Precog 3's surprise negator is itself worth a lot), and having Dharok able to reach the marines Precog, amongst other psyker disciplines, would be useful in the long run as well.

If we want our marines to be teachers and leaders, not just soldiers, it's one of the disciplines that's most handy.
 
Alratan said:
As Fan can get him from Path 1 to 5 in a single use, I'd prefer to get him one dot rather than two. Then another time a second use of VEE can get that to 5.

However, on this is planet the terraforming integration means that shamans don't need Weather Control or Maelström.

That's why I go with Precog 1, as Precog is something else that can be very useful (Precog 3's surprise negator is itself worth a lot), and having Dharok able to reach the marines Precog, amongst other psyker disciplines, would be useful in the long run as well.

If we want our marines to be teachers and leaders, not just soldiers, it's one of the disciplines that's most handy.
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We did not get terraforming integration, we got unlimited resources. Also I'd like to get Dharok to Summoning and Warding 5 in one go, it would let him teach Marines to the max level if he can make the roll.
 
DragonParadox said:
We did not get terraforming integration, we got unlimited resources. Also I'd like to get Dharok to Summoning and Warding 5 in one go, it would let him teach Marines to the max level if he can make the roll.
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Good point

However, we can still get him to 5, I think; if we buy him one dot now. 2x(1+2+3+4) = 20, which is what VEE grants.
 
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Alratan said:
As Fan can get him from Path 1 to 5 in a single use, I'd prefer to get him one dot rather than two. Then another time a second use of VEE can get that to 5.

However, on this is planet the terraforming integration means that shamans don't need Weather Control or Maelström.

That's why I go with Precog 1, as Precog is something else that can be very useful (Precog 3's surprise negator is itself worth a lot), and having Dharok able to reach the marines Precog, amongst other psyker disciplines, would be useful in the long run as well.

If we want our marines to be teachers and leaders, not just soldiers, it's one of the disciplines that's most handy.
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I do not think he would be able to teach much with Precog 1, but if that is the case he can just get that with VEE Sorcery to 5, precog to 1
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think he would be able to teach much with Precog 1, but if that is the case he can just get that with VEE Sorcery to 5, precog to 1
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It depends whether you can have one Wish span both? Is Sorcery similar enough to Precognition that it can, or is the first more like a skill granted with base VEE and another more like a mutation granted with Scoured Perfection of Form?

I wouldn't expect he'd be able to teach much Precog this turn, that would be a future turn thing. Thinking about it though, the minor hunches Precog 1 gives someone should really make them slightly better at everything on an extended basis.

Article:
Intuition: The seer gains a knack for guessing correctly. For purely random events (lottery, dice rolls), the predictions can be rather accurate.
The psychic can intuitively know the shortest route to a given destination and enjoys a higher likelihood for beneficial chance meetings. The psychic experiences no visions, they just "have a feeling" and guess very well. Even with five or more successes, predictions are unlikely to be entirely accurate.
 
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Alratan said:
It depends whether you can have one Wish span both? Is Sorcery similar enough to Precognition that it can, or is the first more like a skill granted with base VEE and another more like a mutation granted with Scoured Perfection of Form?

I wouldn't expect he'd be able to teach much Precog this turn, that would be a future turn thing. Thinking about it though, the minor hunches Precog 1 gives someone should really make them slightly better at everything on an extended basis.

Article:
Intuition: The seer gains a knack for guessing correctly. For purely random events (lottery, dice rolls), the predictions can be rather accurate.
The psychic can intuitively know the shortest route to a given destination and enjoys a higher likelihood for beneficial chance meetings. The psychic experiences no visions, they just "have a feeling" and guess very well. Even with five or more successes, predictions are unlikely to be entirely accurate.
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Seems like a bit of a stretch, but I don't see the harm, changing.
 
So, rough plan for next turn:

Lorgar is given Precognition + Synergy 5 with VEE. He uses Mind Partition to use those powers plus his Mythos powers to coordinate a rotating set of his marines and others to establish government, economic, educational, industrial, media, etc institutions and to get them working together to set up a working planetary civilisation and help people get over their trauma.

Dharok is given Binding, Warding, and Summoning and works to lead the space marines, teaching them to responsibly use their powers and become leaders and teachers as well as soldiers in turn.

Thalassa is given an Aethyrica Savant specialty and builds a factory for a Gellar field and a factory for a warp drive.

Fan:

1) explores the shipyards and ship hulks in orbit for archeotech and to survey their condition. All that was on the surface was lost, but the stuff in orbit should still be there

2) uses VEE to uplift leaders amongst the reincarnates, giving them as variety of skills that will help, including giving some educators the six point Dharma's Voice; and seeing if some of the previously more skilled DAoT returnees can be given Savant ratings in DAoT scientific/engineering topics that correspond to some of their lost memories and skills rather than the sacred mysteries of specific Mechanicum sub-cults like Thalassa can.

3) uses VEE on volunteers who will let themselves be studied to start building up comprehensive genetor upgrade packages

4) Builds basic industry

DragonParadox said:
Seems like a bit of a stretch, but I don't see the harm, changing.
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Yeah, the way I see it, it's a marginal difference either way, but no point not to try.

After all, presumably Precognition 1 is meant to do something, and we're unlikely to be actually using the Binding, Summoning and Warding in anger either.

[X] Plan Space Marine Socials, Mech Organics, Exalted Shintai and Sorcery
 
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Alratan said:
So, rough plan for next turn:

Lorgar is given Precognition + Synergy 5 with VEE. He uses Mind Partition to use those powers plus his Mythos powers to coordinate a rotating set of his marines and others to establish government, economic, educational, industrial, media, etc institutions and to get them working together to set up a working planetary civilisation and help people get over their trauma.

Dharok is given Binding, Warding, and summoning works to lead the space marines, teaching them to responsibly use their powers and become leaders and teachers as well as soldiers in turn.

Thalassa is given an Aethyrica Savant specialty and builds factories designed to make Warp Tech such as cellar fields and warp drives, twice

Fan:

1) explores the shipyards and ship hulks in orbit for archeotech and to survey their condition. All that was on the surface was lost, but the stuff in orbit should still be there

2) uses VEE to uplift leaders amongst the reincarnates, giving them as variety of skills that will help, including giving some educators the six point Dharma's Voice; and seeing if some of the previously more skilled DAoT returnees can be given Savant ratings in DAoT scientific/engineering topics that correspond to some of their lost memories and skills rather than the sacred mysteries of specific Mechanicum sub-cults like Thalassa can.

3) uses VEE on volunteers who will let themselves be studied to start building up comprehensive genetor upgrade packages

4) Builds basic industry



Yeah, the way I see it, it's a marginal difference either way, but no point not to try.

After all, presumably Precognition 1 is meant to do something, and we're unlikely to be actually using the Binding, Summoning and Warding in anger either.

[X] Plan Space Marine Socials, Mech Organics, Exalted Shintai and Sorcery
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I think Lorgar is going to have to get a handle on the local religion sooner rather than later. Right now we have the issue that he is a saint without a religion and a lot of people getting inventive with their interpretations. Next turn we really need to buy prayer eating to design a religion that includes the Chaos Gods being real, but not feeding them.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think Lorgar is going to have to get a handle on the local religion sooner rather than later. Right now we have the issue that he is a saint without a religion and a lot of people getting inventive with their interpretations. Next turn we really need to buy prayer eating to design a religion that includes the Chaos Gods being real, but not feeding them.
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I think that's likely, but I hope organised religion philosophy can wait until we have the basic institutions of government and the economy established. The experience of setting a planetary scale civilisation to order might also help improve any philosophy he develops.

We can establish philosophical schools and similar. Depending upon when Dharok invents Terrestrial Martial Arts, we might want to have those we an advanced class in these.

On that, we may prefer to have people revere Great Teacher Fan rather than Great Teacher Lorgar, so have Lorgar assist Fan with writing texts of moral and spiritual teachings rather than vice versa, as Fan is much better than leveraging metaphysical reverence than Lotgar is.

It's possible we might want Fan to make a start of that this turn.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I think Lorgar is going to have to get a handle on the local religion sooner rather than later. Right now we have the issue that he is a saint without a religion and a lot of people getting inventive with their interpretations. Next turn we really need to buy prayer eating to design a religion that includes the Chaos Gods being real, but not feeding them.
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That's impossible like outright impossible. The Emperor is not against religion for the lols, he started quite a few of them back in the day. And open knowledge of chaos is a super bad idea their are always people willing to buy what the chaos gods are selling open knowledge means anybody can on a single bad day decide to sell their soul. At least the chaos gods have to work to get people if they don't know about them.

The chaos gods by their nature are feed by raw emotion, and higher concepts like knowledge, strategy etc. This gives them an unbeatable advantage over any other possible warp entity, that could form. Since the fall of the Elder gods the chaos gods have claimed the warp entire. While it is possible for other gods to form, but the moment they do, they get eaten by the one of four, and it becomes just a another chaos cult.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
That's impossible like outright impossible. The Emperor is not against religion for the lols, he started quite a few of them back in the day. And open knowledge of chaos is a super bad idea their are always people willing to buy what the chaos gods are selling open knowledge means anybody can on a single bad day decide to sell their soul. At least the chaos gods have to work to get people if they don't know about them.

The chaos gods by their nature are feed by raw emotion, and higher concepts like knowledge, strategy etc. This gives them an unbeatable advantage over any other possible warp entity, that could form. Since the fall of the Elder gods the chaos gods have claimed the warp entire. While it is possible for other gods to form, but the moment they do, they get eaten by the one of four, and it becomes just a another chaos cult.
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Good news, we are the Celestial Exalted and the impossible is what those were designed to do. :V

It has been confirmed that with the understanding that comes with prayer eating charms and his own religious insights Lorgar can design a religion that includes Chaos as the bad guys without feeding them.
 
DragonParadox said:
Good news, we are the Celestial Exalted and the impossible is what those were designed to do. :V

It has been confirmed that with the understanding that comes with prayer eating charms and his own religious insights Lorgar can design a religion that includes Chaos as the bad guys without feeding them.
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Not feeding the chaos gods is impossible they don't need worship to get power from people. And again knowledge of the 4 is a super bad idea, you don't want any random that loses their parents to know they can start praying to Nurgle to take away the pain, every artist to know they can send some prayers to ask slaanesh to get the inspiration or their next big hit etc.
 
DragonParadox said:
It has been confirmed that with the understanding that comes with prayer eating charms and his own religious insights Lorgar can design a religion that includes Chaos as the bad guys without feeding them.
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Not quite. Lorgar can usurp prayers but including the Chaos Gods is still playing with fire as they can still be empowered by the narrative, just not prayers.

Stories have power in the warp and including them in a religion gives them a built in way in to the followers of the religion. This is the Problem the Emperor is having with religion, among other things. Like the God formed by the religion being nomed by the Chaos Gods who can then freely pretend to be the said God.

There are a lot of problems and no easy or even hard fixes.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Not feeding the chaos gods is impossible they don't need worship to get power from people. And again knowledge of the 4 is a super bad idea, you don't want any random that loses their parents to know they can start praying to Nurgle to take away the pain, every artist to know they can send some prayers to ask slaanesh to get the inspiration or their next big hit etc.
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Not feeding the Chaos Gods is just designing the wiring properly. 'Prayer' in an Exalted (and especially an Infernal) context is not this mystical thing that has to be engaged with on a deep mystical level, it is the energy you run the air-conditioning on. They literally had prayer tech air conditioning in the first age. That is because on a macro level humans were designed as prayer generators and Creation is the machines they were made to feed it into. That is not to say it will all be easy, some of the problems are social, some of them are going to be political and some will involve the mess that is the Wyld/Warp in this age, punching of daemons until they stop being evil to get them to explain how the heck they work may be required.

But with all that said 'we can't do it because the Emperor can't' is not a good argument, Fan has the lore of beings that made the Gods, not some gods, the concept of Gods as janitorial staff for the machine that is reality.
 
For exalted humans sure not how it works for 40k humans. The chaos god feed on all emotion, no matter the source or intended destination, because they are the god of emotion in their most base raw form. They only way humans cannot feed the 4 is to be completely emotionally dead.

Trying not to empower them is like trying to keep a secret from Saturn, by definition of the task you already have failed.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
For exalted humans sure not how it works for 40k humans. The chaos god feed on all emotion, no matter the source or intended destination, because they are the god of emotion in their most base raw form. They only way humans cannot feed the 4 is to be completely emotionally dead.

Trying not to empower them is like trying to keep a secret from Saturn, by definition of the task you already have failed.
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Exalted humans are 40K humans otherwise the Exaltation would not have fit in Fan's soul. The idea that prayer works differently but Exaltations still fit would be like... "well in this universe Pi is 4, but don't worry the Large Hadron Collider is exactly the same."
 
DragonParadox said:
Exalted humans are 40K humans otherwise the Exaltation would not have fit in Fan's soul. The idea that prayer works differently but Exaltations still fit would be like... "well in this universe Pi is 4, but don't worry the Large Hadron Collider is exactly the same."
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Or it could that issue was hand waved away to allow the quest in the first place, since pretty much all exalted Cross quests don't work, on a fundamental level, since nothing but exalted uses it specific soul structure.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Or it could that issue was hand waved away to allow the quest in the first place, since pretty much all exalted Cross quests don't work, on a fundamental level, since nothing but exalted uses it specific soul structure.
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Yes I suppose it could be that the quest is inconsistent, but unless and until an inconsistency is confirmed I see no reason to assume it. Not only so Exaltations work, Sorcerous Workings work, in fact they work so well that the Marines we just Wildshaped can use them as if they are dragonblooded, people including mortals can have Enlightened Essence. That is very solid indication that human souls are fundamentally the same
 
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So on Souls. Human souls are the same as those in Exalted or rather close enough that there are not a lot of differences.

But there are differences. For example take the Marines. They had natutal Exalted Sorcery while everyone else did not. Same with Awakened Essence.

Now this could be because "Heaven and earth were seperated" or it could be natural drift of the Soul. Or it could be due to the Warp.

But simply put, while mostly the same, some things seem....broken. This is also related to why Fan is not able to use Exalted spells but the Shard was (Necromancy but same rules).

More on this is Spoilers.
 
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