Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Does D&D 5 do away with the action economy? because in 3e, action economy made Sha'ir unplayable.
Dungeons and Dragons Megathread
- Thread starter Havocfett
- Start date
Does D&D 5 do away with the action economy? because in 3e, action economy made Sha'ir unplayable.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Technically the action economy will always exist in some form as long as the idea of 'actions' exists, but there's no way to really cheese it yet. Everyone gets an Action, a Move, a Reaction, and sometimes a Bonus Action if you have something you can do with it, but you only ever get the one Action.
The only people who can really screw the action economy in an appreciable way (outside of Time Stop or summoning dudes) are...Fighters, of all people.
The only people who can really screw the action economy in an appreciable way (outside of Time Stop or summoning dudes) are...Fighters, of all people.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Round 1:
Wizard - cast
Sha'ir - cast
Round 2:
Wizard - Cast
Sha'ir - sends gen to grab spell
Round 3:
Wizard -Cast
Sha'ir - Waiting for gen to return
Round 4:
Sha'ir might have spell now, but he's already bleeding out from wounds.
That's called losing the action economy.
Wizard - cast
Sha'ir - cast
Round 2:
Wizard - Cast
Sha'ir - sends gen to grab spell
Round 3:
Wizard -Cast
Sha'ir - Waiting for gen to return
Round 4:
Sha'ir might have spell now, but he's already bleeding out from wounds.
That's called losing the action economy.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Who the hell goes into a fight with only one spell prepared, what the fuck?
Sha'irs can prepare spells ahead of time just like a wizard or a cleric, it just takes them longer. They don't need to fetch every spell individually right before they use it.
Sha'irs can prepare spells ahead of time just like a wizard or a cleric, it just takes them longer. They don't need to fetch every spell individually right before they use it.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
Not in AD&D.
ArabianAdventuresPg43 said:
ArabianAdventuresPg97 said:
ArabianAdventuresPages98and99 said:
At lower levels this isn't especially damning, especially regarding 1st level spells, as a 1st level Sha'ir effectively has unlimited 1st Level spells which each have a 55% chance of successful summoning (on their first attempt, repeated tries of a failed search do decrease odds). By level four, while the standard Wizard can chuck out more spells in one go now (versus the Level 1 duo which each will start the fight with one spell prepared), the Sha'ir now has a 70% chance for gathering a 1st level spell, 60% for 2nd Level, and - if they so risked it - could spend a couple of turns even hunting for a 3rd or 4th Level spell (admittedly with much lower odds). Similarly, once they hit Level 11, a Sha'ir can bind a Genie in their service (which means they basically get a Genie companion as a class bonus).
Between levels they may appear vaguely weak, but since they can still use magic items they aren't that heavily limited.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Sha'ir would probably work like the animal companion version of the Ranger. You'd get a pet(s) and could use a Bonus Action to order it to do things.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Chloe was discussing 3.X-style action economy, and the 3E update of the Sha'ir can hold spells-per-day as a normal caster.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Except it can't actually, because it takes more than a day to fill up you "daily" alotment of spells at higher levels.
It was just badly written and unplayable. Sha'ir need to rest for 8 hours and they start sending their gen for spells. Wizards need to rest for 8 hours and then spend an hour in prep to ready spells. At low levels Sha'ir are done faster than a wizard. At higher levels, Sha'ir still aren't done the next day.
There's a reason why most dragon mag content is considered crap.
Also, Action Economy is applicable to pretty much every edition of D&D
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Play them in campaigns with downtime, then?
My apologies, your phrasing made me think you were specifically talking about 3E's Action Economy issues. Like, you literally brought up 3E.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Hmm. Okay, a 5E version of the Shi'ar.
First, start with Warlock instead of Wizard since the Warlock thematics (bargains with other beings for power) is better than the Wizard thematics (learned scholars harnessing non-sapient energy). The way spells work also is better in theme since the Warlock gets all spells back with a Short Rest rather than a Long Rest like the Wizard.
Instead of Spells a Shi'ar has Gen. He can have One Gen at Level one, and gains an additional Gen at 5th, 11th and 17th level (for a max of 4 Gen at one time).
Each Gen is a Creature with a Challenge Rating of 1/4. You add your Proficiency Bonus to the Gen's AC, attack rolls and damage rolls, as well as any Saves and Skills it is proficient in (basically a Ranger's Animal Companion). Like animal companions Gen take no actions unless you command them to. You can command them to move anywhere within your line of sight that they can move to with their normal movement method (no action) or spend an action ordering them to take the Attack, Disengage, Dodge or Help action. You may issue a command to more than one Gen at a time, but all must take the same action (ie, all Attack, all Dodge, etc).
This effectively gives the Shi'ar four physical attacks per turn, like a high level fighter. Probably less powerful since they are only CR 1/4 creatures, even with the attack and damage bonus but that is to be expected since you can safely stand back and order them to attack for you.
Each Gen can also hold one spell. As an action on your turn you can order a Gen to cast a spell it is holding. The spell uses your Charisma as its spellcasting stat. These spells originate from the Gen (affects that target Self target the Gen, for example). Once a Gen casts a spell it is gone until the Gen retrieves a new spell. You can, as a Bonus Action on your turn, order a Gen to retrieve a new spell (even if it already is holding a spell). This takes a variable amount of time, during which the Gen is not available to you. Gen return when you take a Short or Long Rest. Gen can retrieve any spell up to 5th level from the Warlock Spell List. You gain access to higher level spells as you level up, exactly as the Warlock does.
Obviously, you can't send a Gen away to retrieve a spell if it is dead or otherwise disabled. You may replace a Gen with an hour long Ritual that is mechanically similar to Find Familiar (ie, 10gp per use).
Starting at 11th level you can imbue one of your Gen with a higher level spell. Once per Long Rest you can have that Gen use that spell. Once it has used that spell it can not retrieve another spell of that level until you have completed a Long Rest and you may change what spell it holds at the beginning of that Rest. You gain access to a single 7th, 8th and 9th level spell at levels 13, 15 and 17 respectively.
You may also teach your Gen one Cantrip each, which they can cast at will (again, using your Charisma and proficiency bonus). If your Gen is holding a spell with the Ritual tag you may cast that spell as a Ritual using all the normal rules, this does not expend the spell. These cantrips are drawn from the Wizard spell list (note, no Eldritcth Blast).
Shi'ar do not gain a Pack Boon. At first level the Shi'ar selects a Patron. The nature of this patron determines the creature type of his Gen (celestial, elemental, fey or fiend), grants an extended spell list (Celestial would grant healing spells, for example) and additional boons at levels 3rd, 6th, 10th and 14th. (I can't bother thinking all these up, but they would be roughly equivalent to the Warlock stuff at the same level.)
I don't think they should get Invocations, because having up to four mobile damage dealing minions out at once more than makes up for that, but I could see them getting some other Feature which is much like that.
First, start with Warlock instead of Wizard since the Warlock thematics (bargains with other beings for power) is better than the Wizard thematics (learned scholars harnessing non-sapient energy). The way spells work also is better in theme since the Warlock gets all spells back with a Short Rest rather than a Long Rest like the Wizard.
Instead of Spells a Shi'ar has Gen. He can have One Gen at Level one, and gains an additional Gen at 5th, 11th and 17th level (for a max of 4 Gen at one time).
Each Gen is a Creature with a Challenge Rating of 1/4. You add your Proficiency Bonus to the Gen's AC, attack rolls and damage rolls, as well as any Saves and Skills it is proficient in (basically a Ranger's Animal Companion). Like animal companions Gen take no actions unless you command them to. You can command them to move anywhere within your line of sight that they can move to with their normal movement method (no action) or spend an action ordering them to take the Attack, Disengage, Dodge or Help action. You may issue a command to more than one Gen at a time, but all must take the same action (ie, all Attack, all Dodge, etc).
This effectively gives the Shi'ar four physical attacks per turn, like a high level fighter. Probably less powerful since they are only CR 1/4 creatures, even with the attack and damage bonus but that is to be expected since you can safely stand back and order them to attack for you.
Each Gen can also hold one spell. As an action on your turn you can order a Gen to cast a spell it is holding. The spell uses your Charisma as its spellcasting stat. These spells originate from the Gen (affects that target Self target the Gen, for example). Once a Gen casts a spell it is gone until the Gen retrieves a new spell. You can, as a Bonus Action on your turn, order a Gen to retrieve a new spell (even if it already is holding a spell). This takes a variable amount of time, during which the Gen is not available to you. Gen return when you take a Short or Long Rest. Gen can retrieve any spell up to 5th level from the Warlock Spell List. You gain access to higher level spells as you level up, exactly as the Warlock does.
Obviously, you can't send a Gen away to retrieve a spell if it is dead or otherwise disabled. You may replace a Gen with an hour long Ritual that is mechanically similar to Find Familiar (ie, 10gp per use).
Starting at 11th level you can imbue one of your Gen with a higher level spell. Once per Long Rest you can have that Gen use that spell. Once it has used that spell it can not retrieve another spell of that level until you have completed a Long Rest and you may change what spell it holds at the beginning of that Rest. You gain access to a single 7th, 8th and 9th level spell at levels 13, 15 and 17 respectively.
You may also teach your Gen one Cantrip each, which they can cast at will (again, using your Charisma and proficiency bonus). If your Gen is holding a spell with the Ritual tag you may cast that spell as a Ritual using all the normal rules, this does not expend the spell. These cantrips are drawn from the Wizard spell list (note, no Eldritcth Blast).
Shi'ar do not gain a Pack Boon. At first level the Shi'ar selects a Patron. The nature of this patron determines the creature type of his Gen (celestial, elemental, fey or fiend), grants an extended spell list (Celestial would grant healing spells, for example) and additional boons at levels 3rd, 6th, 10th and 14th. (I can't bother thinking all these up, but they would be roughly equivalent to the Warlock stuff at the same level.)
I don't think they should get Invocations, because having up to four mobile damage dealing minions out at once more than makes up for that, but I could see them getting some other Feature which is much like that.
- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
On thing to keep in mind, when this was written, was Sorcerers / Warlocks didn't have a representation yet. Familiars weren't standard for Wizards either, or at least not until higher levels, so Warlock / Sorcerer would both work as better comparisons, yes.
Having multiple Gen has the potential to be broken, but at the same time I can see it being done (especially since Sha'ir can eventually imprison multiple genies and Al-Qadim was a lower-tier fantasy than default 5th Edition). Presumably the benefits that apply for consorting with a Genie of a certain element would only apply if they consistently pick Gen of the same element, or alternatively they can stack (so while a Sha'ir with a Water and Air Gen would, when dealing with a Genie of Water or Air, get a +2 bonus to diplomacy and whatnot, Fire or Earth -2, but if they picked Water and Water then they would get +4 for Water and -2 for everything else).
I guess I should specify how they're stat-lined in AD&D to aid with conversion: AC5 (AC15 in 3.5+ terms, in AD&D you start at 10 then count down instead of starting at 10 then counting up), Movement Rate of 9 (mid-way between Dwarf and Human, note that in AD&D Dwarves are half as fast as Humans so being 3/4 a human's speed it'd probably be simplest to assume a standard Small creature's speed), "Low" intelligence (5-7 in AD&D terms, not sure where that converts to 5th but probably around 6-9), "a number of hit points equaling half its master's current maximum" (Hit Die too), and "the THAC0 of a monster that's half their master's level in Dice" (so the BatB of a monster half the Sha'ir's level). "Gens inflict 1d6 points of damage, and are of small size."
The four sub-types of Gen given are:
Air Gens (Djinnlings), who fly at MV 12 (so fly at Movement Speed 30), "but have no other djinni-like powers, and cannot become invisible or create objects". They tend towards good and lawful behavior.
Fire gens (Efreetikin), can produce flame at will and tend towards evil / lawful behavior.
Water gens (Maridans), have a swim speed of MV 12 (thus they gain all the bonuses of an innate swim speed, and swim at 30), and can breathe underwater without penalty. They're often good / chaotic in behavior.
Earth gens (daolanin), inflict twice the base damage with their natural attacks (2d6) and tend towards evil / chaos behavior.
Having a Gen provides a bonus of +2 armor class against elemental attacks of the same type as the Sha'ir's Gen, as well as +2 to Saving Throws and -2 damage per die of that element (to a minimum of 1), so for an example a Sha'ir with an Efreetikin is targeted by a 6D6 damage fireball. They benefit from +2 to their saving throw (to receive half damage), as well as - regardless of the results - reduce the damage of each die by 2 (meaning that the most damage they could suffer is 24 instead of 36, and if they save the most they can suffer is 12 vs 18). This benefit only applies when the Gen's on the same plane as their master and within 10', but applies to the Gen at all times. Regarding saving throws, the Gen counts as being twice the level of its master, so it's generally a very foolish idea to do something like target an Efreetikin with something like a fireball (since they'll get +2 to their already high saving throw).
Gen must stay within 100 yards of their master while on the Prime Material Plane. If forced to move beyond such it shifts into the elemental planes (when able) and in 10-60 minutes reappears if their master is on the Prime Material Plane, 1-6 minutes if their master's on an Elemental plane, 1-6 days if their master is on neither an Elemental nor Material plane. Unless impossible they appear within 10' of their master when arriving on the same plane. It tends to appear wherever is safest (such as behind the Sha'ir, or on the far side of some enemies), and if it cannot appear anywhere safe it will refrain from returning to the Sha'ir's plane until it is safe to do so (so you can't, say, throw a Sha'ir with 100% fire resistance into lava and wait for their Gen to immolate itself). If the Gen is more than 10' (two squares) from its Master, but within 100 yards, and someone immediately threatens it, the Gen tends to teleport back to its home plane and return within 10-60 minutes. As said prior, Gen and Sha'ir share a telepathic connection.
Gen death is depicted as a little more harsh than standard Familiar death (no Con' loss, but half the Sha'ir's base HP is supposed to be lost with a saving throw to stop at 1HP if this would render them unconscious / dead). There's also a bunch of loyalty / morale stuff, but that isn't as important in 5th Ed. The gist of it is a Sha'ir can replace a Gen, but while their firsts tend to be fanatically loyal the last in a long line tend to be untrustworthy and jittery. Gen can be charmed and the like, but even when so they will not directly attack their Sha'ir.
Summoning then binding a Gen is depicted as a 1d20 hour process requiring a magical proficiency check, but if the Sha'ir "communes" with the respective element (is in proximity to a lot of [respective element]) and fasts then success is automatic (so a malnourished and unattended Sha'ir in a damp cell, for example, would be able to summon a Maridan fairly easily).
Well, "safely" stand back. Losing your familiars in combat, even if reduced to Wizard Familiar-esque penalties, would still be fairly undesirable. Plus a Gen that's physically attacking is not fetching spells.
I feel like pointing out that, at least in AD&D, it would be the Sha'ir who casts the spell. It's just that the Gen effectively snags the raw elemental force, tells you how to channel it, then throws it through you instead of forcing you to channel from (respective magical plane) yourself.
Similarly regarding AD&D Gen, there is no limit to either spell level or Arcane / Divine (you can steal Divine spells, if with the risk of negative consequences that scale in terms of Divine Spell's level). However, for simplicity's sake it may be easier to restrict the Gen to Warlock spells. It should be pointed out, though, that the Gen can only fetch spells in AD&D that the Sha'ir knows about, so you probably couldn't send one in 5th to find some obscure spell from Eberon while you're in Faerun.
Once more "feel like pointing out", Gen are intended to be some sort of elemental demi-genie being versus some undefined magical being. If the Sha'ir is intended to be less Al-Qadim specific this sounds good, but if Al-Qadim in nature keeping it Elemental Genie is probably for the best.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Pretty much my thoughts, yes.
I'd have to playtest it to be sure, but basically I'm going for a starting level of having the character be balanced in 5E rather than going for full parity with the old class. Having four Gen at once is a big deal, but considering that a CR 1/4 creature has AC 13, HP ~42, Damage around 2d4 and +3 to hit then even at high levels that only AC 19, Attack +9 Damage 2d4+6. Certainly impressive four four attacks per round but not really massive. It's the having a good extra 160 hp of damage sponges that would more than make up for that.
Useful for inspiration, but I think a ground up approach is better.
Certainly something useful for a Patron bonus in game. Perhaps at 3rd level the Sha'ir gains Advantage on saving throws versus the element of any Elemental Gen you have active. Maybe increasing that to straight up Resistance to that damage type as the 10th level boon.
Useful. "Gen must stay within 100 yards of their master at all times. If forced beyond this range they vanish and reappear at the end of a Short Rest."
Given that the character has spells/short rest you can't exactly have the Sha'ir retrieving spells every single round, that would be stupidly overpowered for 5E. Four spells/encounter is still pretty boss. That leaves us with "What do they do other than cast spells?" If all they do is just hang around and do nothing, they're just re-flavoured Warlocks. So I thought it better to give them stuff to do directly. So, basically turning them into animal companions.
Yeah, but this feels more... special. It feels more like you are commanding alien beings to do your bidding. Again, we have straight Warlock for "imbued with power by alien forces" characters. Plus, this lets the Sha'ir have up to four Concentration duration spells active at once, which is huge.
Yeah, not something that would fly in 5E. Casting above your weight class would be way, way more powerful than the game could handle. especially since spells are now based entirely on the spells effect and level, rather than the casters level (which would have somewhat limited it in AD&D).
I know, but you could reskin celestial, fey and fiends into the setting easily enough. You could have the elemental version be the standard path, with the others being based on other sorts of middle eastern lore. D&D's original decision to make Djinn into elementals was entirely arbitrary afterall, they could as easily be seen as Fiends of Fey.
Plus, I like the idea of a guy running around with a tiny army of Imps or Faeries.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Yea, TOO huge. As in, like, "No fucking way in hell should this be allowed."
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
I actually had a 3.5 build who's shtick was "Deploy 4 Elemental Monoliths at once." OP as heck, but at level 19, what caster isn't?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Yea, but that was 3.5. 5E is pretty strict about a single spellcaster only having a single Concentration spell active at once. It's one of the few, and most important, balancing mechanics spellcasters have and absolutely shouldn't be broken.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
wasn;t arguing with you dude, just sharing a amusing anecdote. it's a thing people do.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Well, when you quote a statement of mine after you argued me just a few posts ago, I'm not sure what to think. 
Ursine
Concerned Citizen
- Location
- Home, Sweet Home
Exactly right. The only class with a way of doing two Concentration spells at a time is the Sorcerer, and it is one of the best class features of any class.
Extra Concentration spells leads to extra buffing, which breaks the Bounded Accuracy that is one of the center philosophies of 5E.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Hmm. I thought the Warlock had no good buff spells, but Hex and Protection from Evil and Good are both okayish. So you're right, probably best to limit it to one Concentration spell among the Gen.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Even if they didn't, it wouldn't matter; Multiclassing explicitly allows you to use class spells with the class features of other classes, such as allowing a Sorcerer to metamagic non-Sorcerer spells.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Nah. See, the Sha'ir is a Prepared Caster, not a spontaneous Caster. It does not even get spell slots. It Prepares spells (via its Gen). The rules on Multiclassing say that you still follow the rules for preparing spells of your base classes. Thus you could not prepare a Cleric spell with a Gen, anymore than I could use on of my Cleric prepared slots to prepare a Warlock spell.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
That's not how multiclassing in 5E works; the slots/spells per day of full classes effectively stack together as if they were still single-classing. Whether they're prepared or spontaneous or not doesn't matter; Even the Wizard is technically a semi-spontaneous caster, as they effectively prepare spells known and then cast them spontaneously throughout the day much like a Cleric does.
What, exactly, is keeping the hypothetical 5E Sha'ir from preparing cleric spells in their Gen, if they know Cleric spells? Because a Warlock can sure as hell cast non-Warlock spells in their Pact Magic slots if they're inclined to.
What, exactly, is keeping the hypothetical 5E Sha'ir from preparing cleric spells in their Gen, if they know Cleric spells? Because a Warlock can sure as hell cast non-Warlock spells in their Pact Magic slots if they're inclined to.
Ursine
Concerned Citizen
- Location
- Home, Sweet Home
Also allowing a Warlock/Sorcerer to create spell points from spells and then get the spells back with a short rest.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
That too.
Goddamn, Sorcerer with Spell Points is fucking rad as hell; in my games I run it off spell points even if other spellcasters aren't.
Goddamn, Sorcerer with Spell Points is fucking rad as hell; in my games I run it off spell points even if other spellcasters aren't.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Yes, but the Sha'ir does not get spell slots. Nor would multiclassing with a Sha'ir add spell slots. They would count as a non-caster for gaining spell slots.
Because Gen can't cast spells you know and you can't cast spells they know. A Gen prepares a spell from the Warlock spell list and can cast that one spell. It doesn't get to prepare a spell from the Cleric list anymore than your Cleric gets to sub in a Wizard spell from one of the (Level + Wis) spells they prepare.
Put it this way:
Can a Monk (Way of the Four Elements)/Cleric spend Ki points to cast Cleric spells? Can he use his Cleric spell slots to cast one of his Elemental Disciplines?
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