Having dipped my toes into Pathfinder 2e, I appreciate as a DM that the encounter math actually works. And from the player side having three actions available per turn means trying more tactical options like shoving, disarming, etc. doesn't end up wasting my entire turn if it fails.
Dungeons and Dragons Megathread
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Chloe Sullivan
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technically PF1 also gave you three actions: Take a Standard, Move, and Swift action each round.
that these actions are graded - not equal - actually gives the devs far more room to play with for offering content.
it's just that the "core" rules offer little to do with swift actions and also include a lot of low effort trash content that give you things to do with (mostly standard) actions that aren't worth the cost.
there's rules for doing three (coequal) action in PF1 and it fucks up the game for anyone not a melee full-attacker or a traditional caster. a lot of PF1 classes rely on the "swift" action being able to happen in the middle of another action, and the three action system breaks that.
meanwhile, 3PP PF1 content designed for actually using your move, standard and swift each round (e.g. Akasha, Spheres, PoW) is quite rich in options and flexibility. and offer stuff to make the "tactical options" (which here seems yo mean combat maneuvers) into riders on attacks instead of replacing attacks.
So basically, what you're saying is that Paizo belatedly caught up to what the 3pp devs had been doing for years.
that's not a credit to Paizo.
that these actions are graded - not equal - actually gives the devs far more room to play with for offering content.
it's just that the "core" rules offer little to do with swift actions and also include a lot of low effort trash content that give you things to do with (mostly standard) actions that aren't worth the cost.
there's rules for doing three (coequal) action in PF1 and it fucks up the game for anyone not a melee full-attacker or a traditional caster. a lot of PF1 classes rely on the "swift" action being able to happen in the middle of another action, and the three action system breaks that.
meanwhile, 3PP PF1 content designed for actually using your move, standard and swift each round (e.g. Akasha, Spheres, PoW) is quite rich in options and flexibility. and offer stuff to make the "tactical options" (which here seems yo mean combat maneuvers) into riders on attacks instead of replacing attacks.
So basically, what you're saying is that Paizo belatedly caught up to what the 3pp devs had been doing for years.
that's not a credit to Paizo.
I have no idea what the 3pp even is, but there is a world of difference between 'technically 3 actions' and '3 actions' - not the least is that it makes understanding your turn a lot easier when trying to learn to play. Not even sure why an optional rule for co-equal actions in a previous edition of the game kinda sucking is in any way relevant to the way 2e functions.
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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PF2 has "this action has to be your first action" and "this action has to be your last action" riders on some stuff, so I find "easier" questionable at best.
also, your post implied that the three action system was a big improvement of PF2 over PF1 and... it isn't? it's Paizo belatedly catching up to what better 3PP (Third Party Publishers) were already doing in PF1, except they decided to go back and reinvent the wheel again instead of just adopting improvements that had already been designed by others.
i mean, eh, if you prefer to the PF2 system, that cool, but its not some revolutionary new development.
The ability to have some actions that are "more valuable" than others can cause some complications, but also brings some value to design. In 3.5/PF1, a standard action is more valuable than a swift action is more valuable than a move action, in PF2 you have three action points and the least valuable an action can be without feeling like you're overpaying for it is "equivalent to a Strike", because that's a 1 action activity. This does limit some tricks you can do!
Queshire
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Nah, the least valuable an action can be is "equivalent to a Strike at a -10 penalty," because of the multiple attack penalty.
The Narrator
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If it's build advice for 4E that you're looking for, I'm sure there are guides out there on the internet somewhere.
There are also free actions in PF2, for things that aren't worth spending a whole action on.
I will admit that there are some things that take an action that I think should be a free action instead, like Recall Knowledge.
Yeah, anyone can theoretically make three attacks if they do nothing else, but it's rare that anyone does, because each successive attack has diminishing returns. There's usually something better to do with your third action, even if you don't have some relevant class feat or ability: moving to get into a better position, raising a shield, feinting, intimidating.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
What does 'too balanced' mean here? Hard or impossible to play the build-optimization subgame that is the main way I've actually seen 3.X played (and, to be clear, enjoy reading)? Or am I missing something else?
Chess is a highly balanced game, and unbalanced chess variants can be fun for me sometimes, but only sometimes.
Flavor is fundamentally subordinate to mechanics, yes. Not looking to repeat my experience trying to make an army-raising necromancer in 5E.
Maybe? I'll give it a look!Pathfinder 2nd Edition: Guide to the Guides
As guides for Pathfinder 2nd Edition get written, they will be stored here. If you know of other guides, comment them below. Bookmark t...zenithgames.blogspot.com
is this what you are looking for?
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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as a friend of mine put it: "I was playing off the wrong sheet for the whole session and no one noticed."
if the game is so "balanced" that no one actually can be better at anyone else even in their thematic niche, it feels like you are no longer playing different roles.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Ah, so it's not a lack of balance so much as a lack of differentiation. Good to know!
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
On further review, it's definitely got something, but it looks like PF2 has a norm of preferring Google Docs, whereas I vastly prefer forum threads - things like 'how many hands do you have free' being a major resource (and what that trades off against), which seem like they probably wouldn't be directly explained anywhere in the official rules, get mentioned all the time in forum threads.Pathfinder 2nd Edition: Guide to the Guides
As guides for Pathfinder 2nd Edition get written, they will be stored here. If you know of other guides, comment them below. Bookmark t...
is this what you are looking for?
I don't have a PF2 game to join, so this isn't me trying to get up to speed enough to play; what I want is enough system mastery that I know how to tinker with the rules if I want to, which should also give me a decent impression of whether I would enjoy playing it and what ideas to use in my own game design.
Still, this might just be the best of what's available, so thanks for providing it.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
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You could also join the Paizo discord (link) if you wanted mechanical discussions and the ability to ask a lot of questions, but that's a different format and not for everyone.
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The Narrator
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Paizo does also have their own forums where a lot of this stuff has likely been discussed as well.
3pp stands for third-party pathfinder. It refers to the tremendous amount of content (much of it extremely high quality) that has been produced by third party companies and fans for the 1st edition of Pathfinder.
The Spheres of Power (also subsequent Sphere of Might and Spheres of Influence) are a particular excellent example as they add an entirely new paradigm for the game that fixes the indicated trouble of many actions not being interesting to play and gives greater options to all characters.
This website is a great place to start exploring the available options. It also provides a much easier means of referencing material than pulling up multiple books.
Spheres of Power Wiki Home Page - Spheres of Power Wiki
Spheres of Power is an original magic system created by Drop Dead Studios for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
spheresofpower.wikidot.com
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LordInsane
Loyalist to the Alvarian Merchant's Guild
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Third-party product. I dimly remember seeing it before PF1; 3E/3.5 had a fairly healthy third-party ecosystem.3pp stands for third-party pathfinder. It refers to the tremendous amount of content (much of it extremely high quality) that has been produced by third party companies and fans for the 1st edition of Pathfinder.
The Spheres of Power (also subsequent Sphere of Might and Spheres of Influence) are a particular excellent example as they add an entirely new paradigm for the game that fixes the indicated trouble of many actions not being interesting to play and gives greater options to all characters.
This website is a great place to start exploring the available options. It also provides a much easier means of referencing material than pulling up multiple books.
Spheres of Power Wiki Home Page - Spheres of Power Wiki
Spheres of Power is an original magic system created by Drop Dead Studios for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
i dunno about *healthy*, but OGL spawned a massive amount of D20 books.
a lot of people don't even realize that DSP and RH did 3.5 books before they did the PF1 3PP content that they are known for.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
There are a few linked forum threads in that refpost. They just have a norm of spending the first post linking to the gDoc, rather than Giant in the Playground standard of writing a forum post or three with such organizational technology as 'spoilering individual sections' and 'comparatively easy quoting'.
I don't entirely blame them - forums, mostly out of sheer necessity, have comparatively terrible draft-saving functions, plus they're way more likely to vanish forever than a gDoc - but it does make it less readable.
Strunkriidiisk
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PF2 is a hell of a lot more accessible than PF1, to be sure. I'm not exactly new to the latter system, but trying to make a character from the ground up at anything other than level 1 is frankly an exhausting process.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Yeah, I saw a PF1 character sheet for a level one Wizard from someone's SI fic, and it looked more complicated than most entire rulebooks. There's a reason I think PF2 is probably worth learning - I just wish there was an obvious 'start reading here' link on the website, and that following that chain would reliably get me decent mastery of the system.
FaeGlade Plural
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Perhaps you are looking for the Character Creation Rules.
Or, adjacent, the rules for Leveling Up.
As you can see, that overlaps with what a class - e.g. Fighter - lists at level 1. You pick an Ancestry and Background, which together with your Class determine your HP and your Ability Scores, as well as some of your starting feats (you get an Ancestry feat and Backgrounds do typically come with skill feats).
You then get a bunch of class feats, which for the non-spellcasters will include a 1st-level class feat.
Presto, your character is done.
To level up, go up each level and pick what each level offers you. The class table lists it all and the page explains it all. Your proficiency bonus will just end up being whatever proficiency you have (+2 for trained, +4 for expert, +6 for master, +8 for legendary) plus your level (+0 overall if you are untrained because you're not proficient, duh).
It's a fair number of choices to make, but keep in mind that Retraining is a core downtime activity - it generally takes a week of downtime (and no cost other than opportunity cost) to change a choice made. So you can feel comfortable to just try things out, or change up your build at higher levels, even if your GM isn't generous there (unless you get no Downtime, though that'd be an atypical campaign).
The Narrator
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Yeah, Archive of Nethys works great as a reference, but it's not as easy to just read through the rules as it is if you just have the core book.
Someone already linked to the Character Creation Rules page, so I'll link to this How To Create A Character Guide that I found online. I also found this YouTube video going through the steps of character creation:
View: https://youtu.be/xFFcizyTx8c?si=s4dhC6rEIFWApnyT
NoNat1s has done a lot of Pathfinder videos, including how-to guides, overviews of classes and ancestries, and setting lore. He's a useful resource for learning about Pathfinder.
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The other nice thing with PF 2E is that since all of the rules are free, there are a bunch of character builders online.
My personal choice is Pathbuilder. It's on the Google playstore and has a website. However if you want ALL the options, you have to pay a whole 5$ USD to be able to do animal companion customization/upgrading, free archetypes, and a few other things.
My personal choice is Pathbuilder. It's on the Google playstore and has a website. However if you want ALL the options, you have to pay a whole 5$ USD to be able to do animal companion customization/upgrading, free archetypes, and a few other things.
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The only thing I like about DnD2024 is Weapon Mastery, and that's it.
So I'm just gonna steal it and hammer out a Table for myself.
So I'm just gonna steal it and hammer out a Table for myself.
Having played 3e/3.5e/pf1 for some time back in the day, I do not have any real fondness for it. I mostly remember trap options and having to take prerequisite feats to get to the thing I actually needed to make a build functional.