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Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition)

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[ ] Tell Azura that you really do want to help her, but that every time you get near witches or grief, something inside you just screams that it's unnatural, to the point that you feel physically nauseous just looking at them. You want to help... but just the thought of having any of that stuff inside you...

[ ] Mention that while studying your pendant, you thought that there might be a way to force through an awakening, but that it could be destructive to those nearby. is there anywhere safe that you could go, where you would be able unleash that kind of power without hurting anyone?

Better, maybe mention that we think the reason we feel it might be related to our green mana? That's part of the reason she wants us around at all, and we can imply that we might lose it or have a weaker connection if we contract.

OOC that's not true, but I don't think we know that IC.
 
Xyzarach said:
they dig their feet in and get as obnoxious and stubborn as possible, and don't let up until they either get what they want, or are punished for acting that way.
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Are you sure you aren't describing Aria? She's only 14 herself, not above this behavior. :V
NemoMarx said:
we can imply that we might lose it or have a weaker connection if we contract.
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Kyubes can shut this down easily: He knows this won't happen thanks to Jade.
 
[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating...

After school ends... (Timeskip may not occur quite yet, depending on what happens next)
[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
 
NemoMarx said:
Better, maybe mention that we think the reason we feel it might be related to our green mana? That's part of the reason she wants us around at all, and we can imply that we might lose it or have a weaker connection if we contract.

OOC that's not true, but I don't think we know that IC.
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I'm not certain that we know enough about Green IC to actually be able to make a claim like that, or even realize that that's why we're feeling the way we are.
 
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[X] Move off the roof and head to a more private area. There has to be an abandoned classroom somewhere, right?

[X] Ask Kyubey more questions.
-[X] how would a wish for non-grief based magic even be worded?
-[X] is it within your potential to be able to make it so that you don't generate any grief? not a buffer against corruption, but a total lack of production in the first place, without damaging what makes you who you are?

[X] Tell Azura that you really do want to help her, but that every time you get near witches or grief, something inside you just screams that it's unnatural, to the point that you feel physically nauseous just looking at them. You want to help... but just the thought of having any of that stuff inside you...

[X] Mention that while studying your pendant, you thought that there might be a way to force through an awakening, but that it could be destructive to those nearby. is there anywhere safe that you could go, where you would be able unleash that kind of power without hurting anyone?

[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
 
pressea said:
Kyubes can shut this down easily: He knows this won't happen thanks to Jade.
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Kyubey has been withholding the information that Jade made a wish, and revealing it will throw a lot of extra scrutiny on his "symptoms of insanity" bullshit.

"I suppose there is one thing I can do to help: sharing information. Although it may harm research data, your life takes precedent. Green mana appears to be heavily tied to natural forests, plains, and similar areas. The last person to awaken their Mana without becoming a magical girl did so by being cursed by a witch, having a significant portion of her body eaten, and nearly having the rest of her be eaten while she was still alive and conscious."

"Ultimately, she manifested an alternate personality, destroyed most of the surrounding area, and needed the services of a magical girl specializing in healing in order to recover. She barely survived. Upon regaining consciousness, she exhibited multiple symptoms associated with insanity and killed all those who attempted to speak with her, with one exception. She vanished within twenty-four hours of waking up."
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If he admits that she made a wish, then that wish (and, by extension, having made a wish as someone with mana) could easily be interpreted the proximate cause of all the "symptoms associated with insanity", rather than having awakened mana without doing so. And admitting it now could be the thread that unravels the whole narrative:

"Wait, she made a wish? I thought you said she went insane and killed everyone"

"She made the wish before the events I described."

"So maybe it was caused by becoming a magical girl, maybe mana and magical-girl aren't safe together."

At this point he has to choose between agreeing, or double down on "She had already been showing symptoms associated with insanity" which is a few more questions away from admitting that "insanity" simply means emotions. And even that is assuming we don't get him to admit that "killed all those who attempted to contact her" refers exclusively to Kyubey-bodies.
 
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[X] Move off the roof and head to a more private area. There has to be an abandoned classroom somewhere, right?

[X] Ask Kyubey more questions.
-[X] how would a wish for non-grief based magic even be worded?
-[X] is it within your potential to be able to make it so that you don't generate any grief? not a buffer against corruption, but a total lack of production in the first place, without damaging what makes you who you are?

[X] Tell Azura that you really do want to help her, but that every time you get near witches or grief, something inside you just screams that it's unnatural, to the point that you feel physically nauseous just looking at them. You want to help... but just the thought of having any of that stuff inside you...

[X] Mention that while studying your pendant, you thought that there might be a way to force through an awakening, but that it could be destructive to those nearby. is there anywhere safe that you could go, where you would be able unleash that kind of power without hurting anyone?

[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.

I'll go with this vote for now. Anyway, bit iffy on the no generate grief thing since the simplest way that could happen is not to feel the emotion associated with it at all. But then there is also the without damaging who you are part of the vote that I think would make it ok.

Sereg said:
Nope. For what you are saying to be true, it would mean that it would be completely impossible for absolutely anyone inj absolutely any circumstance. If there's even a single exception, you are completely wrong.
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Look. You are implying the circumstances that Homura went through to be ok without a soul gem could be repeated. Here is what happened.
First, her soul gem got isolated from reality.

Second. she became a witch inside her own soul gem and thus was ok with out it then.

Third. She got brought back from that reality.

Fourth, and this one is really important. She stole a piece of a concept goddess.

Fifth, she bit into her soul gem and ate her witch. six, a new black gem appeared right afterwards and she swallowed it.

Seventh, she became a concept of love and thus no longer needing a soul gem because she wasn't a magical girl anymore.

And this is why I implied that you can't sure her as a proof of concept because Homura changed the variables completely and wasn't a magical girl anymore in the first place.

...I probably wont respond anymore about this, it's starting to irritate me.
 
Alivaril said:
Could I get a vote tally, please? (As always, voting is not locked)
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Vote Tally : Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition) | Page 61 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.0

[X] Move off the roof and head to a more private area. There has to be an abandoned classroom somewhere, right?
[X] Ask Kyubey more questions.
-[X] how would a wish for non-grief based magic even be worded?
-[X] is it within your potential to be able to make it so that you don't generate any grief? not a buffer against corruption, but a total lack of production in the first place, without damaging what makes you who you are?
[X] Tell Azura that you really do want to help her, but that every time you get near witches or grief, something inside you just screams that it's unnatural, to the point that you feel physically nauseous just looking at them. You want to help... but just the thought of having any of that stuff inside you...
[X] Mention that while studying your pendant, you thought that there might be a way to force through an awakening, but that it could be destructive to those nearby. is there anywhere safe that you could go, where you would be able unleash that kind of power without hurting anyone?
[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating...
-[X] Ask Kyubey and Azura to please leave.
--[X] Ask them to just leave you alone until you actually gain access to Green mana. You don't really expect them to listen, but it might be worth a try.
[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
No. of Votes: 3
Shard
NemoMarx
veekie

[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating...
-[X] Ask Kyubey and Azura to please leave.
--[X] Ask them to just leave you alone until you actually gain access to Green mana. You don't really expect them to listen, but it might be worth a try.
[X] Ask your parents if they can pull you out of classes. If Azura just intended to use it as a way to manipulate you, that's rather cruel.
No. of Votes: 1
chocolote12

[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating...
-[X] Ask Kyubey and Azura to please leave.
--[X] Ask them to just leave you alone until you actually gain access to Green mana. You don't really expect them to listen, but it might be worth a try.
[X] Once Kyubey starts being stubborn again, tell him you'll reconsider if he brought back the gem. You need more experimenting on that item.
[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
No. of Votes: 1
taovkool

[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating...
[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
No. of Votes: 1
AramilOniasha

Total No. of Voters: 12

Vote Tally : Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition) | Page 61 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.0

[X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.
No. of Votes: 11
Shard
AramilOniasha
LostDeviljho
NemoMarx
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
taovkool
Torgamous
veekie
Xyzarach

[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating...
No. of Votes: 6
Shard
AramilOniasha
chocolote12
NemoMarx
taovkool
veekie

[X] Move off the roof and head to a more private area. There has to be an abandoned classroom somewhere, right?
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

[X] Ask Kyubey more questions.
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

-[X] how would a wish for non-grief based magic even be worded?
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

-[X] is it within your potential to be able to make it so that you don't generate any grief? not a buffer against corruption, but a total lack of production in the first place, without damaging what makes you who you are?
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

[X] Tell Azura that you really do want to help her, but that every time you get near witches or grief, something inside you just screams that it's unnatural, to the point that you feel physically nauseous just looking at them. You want to help... but just the thought of having any of that stuff inside you...
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

[X] Mention that while studying your pendant, you thought that there might be a way to force through an awakening, but that it could be destructive to those nearby. is there anywhere safe that you could go, where you would be able unleash that kind of power without hurting anyone?
No. of Votes: 6
Xyzarach
LostDeviljho
OverReactionGuy
Paradox
ProperAttorney
Torgamous

-[X] Ask Kyubey and Azura to please leave.
No. of Votes: 5
Shard
chocolote12
NemoMarx
taovkool
veekie

--[X] Ask them to just leave you alone until you actually gain access to Green mana. You don't really expect them to listen, but it might be worth a try.
No. of Votes: 5
Shard
chocolote12
NemoMarx
taovkool
veekie

[X] Ask your parents if they can pull you out of classes. If Azura just intended to use it as a way to manipulate you, that's rather cruel.
No. of Votes: 1
chocolote12

[X] Once Kyubey starts being stubborn again, tell him you'll reconsider if he brought back the gem. You need more experimenting on that item.
No. of Votes: 1
taovkool

Total No. of Voters: 12
 
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2.2: Sunrise and Rainbows
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Don't go back on your desire to attend school. You had fun and it was much easier to learn from actual teachers.

    [X] Move off the roof and head to a more private area. There has to be an abandoned classroom somewhere, right?

    "Could we please go someplace more private if we're going to be talking about this? You're drawing a lot of attention."

    Azura lets out a long, exaggerated sigh. "Fiiiine."



    It doesn't take you two very long to locate a private area. It's an abandoned locker room instead of a classroom, but close enough.

    Looking up at a clock, you find that you still have half an hour remaining before the lunch period ends.

    [X] Tell Azura that you really do want to help her, but that every time you get near witches or grief, something inside you just screams that it's unnatural, to the point that you feel physically nauseous just looking at them. You want to help... but just the thought of having any of that stuff inside you...

    You turn to Azura, who still appears to be simmering in resentment. Best to take care of that as quickly as possible.

    "I really do want to help you, but just looking at the Grief inside Grief Seeds is physically nauseating. I'm not exaggerating; it feels like something that should not exist. It's even worse when I'm looking at a Witch that hasn't died yet. It doesn't register as unnatural while it's still in your soul, but whenever you cleanse your gem, it simply feels awful. I'd rather not take the chance that your Soul Gem is just blocking the nauseating feedback."

    "Wait, you've encountered a witch before? And you're alive?"

    You hug yourself and try to keep irrational terror from setting in. You instantly stop when the extra pressure makes the pain from your injuries even worse.

    "Yes. At a mall about a week ago. It was awful. So much pointless death..."

    "Oh, I remember that one. It was a Sorceress. Some of them get cocky and don't bother with barriers."

    Azura's expression goes rather distant and vaguely happy.

    "They make such beautiful colors when they explode... Like fireworks! Only made of concentrated human despair and suffering. So if they're made in certain countries, exactly like fireworks. That one tasted like sunrise and rainbows."

    [X] Mention that while studying your pendant, you thought that there might be a way to force through an awakening, but that it could be destructive to those nearby. Is there anywhere safe that you could go, where you would be able unleash that kind of power without hurting anyone?

    You quickly try to change the subject and move past the memories of bloodshed. You're not sure how, but Azura's expression seems just a bit creepy.

    "While I was studying my pendant, I got a vague idea that it might be possible to force an awakening. It could be harmful to anyone or anything nearby, though. Is there anywhere I could try to do it at? I might just end up wasting your time, but I'd like to give it a try..."

    You shudder, remembering what Kyubey said about the confirmed method of forcing mana awakening: being eaten alive. You really hope that isn't the only way to expedite your awakening.

    "I own a bit of forest outside of town if you wanna try it there. It's private property, so there shouldn't be anyone around. If there is somebody there, they're trespassing and deserve what they get."

    After a small amount of internal debate, you decide not to point out that she was technically trespassing when you first met her.


    [X] Ask Kyubey more questions.
    -[X] How would a wish for non-grief based magic even be worded?

    You turn to Kyubey.

    "How would I word a wish so as to get non-grief based magic?"

    "If you wish for the ability to perform a given action, you may gain a self-recharging reservoir of power with which to perform said action. This typically only occurs with those who specifically desire such a reservoir or have a sufficiently high potential. Had Azura's potential been higher when she contracted, she would likely be able to use her magic a certain amount each day without needing to resort to Grief Seeds."

    Azura glares at you. "And you're just wasting it."


    -[X] Is it within your potential to be able to make it so that you don't generate any grief? Not a buffer against corruption, but a total lack of production in the first place, without damaging what makes you who you are?

    "Could I wish so that I would never generate any grief at all? Ever? Without damaging my personality, mind, or soul, that is. Basically, if it makes me who I am, would it be harmed by trying?"

    Kyubey stares at you for almost a full minute before answering.

    "I believe such a thing may be possible, but your Soul Gem would not be indestructible. That's..."

    He pauses.

    "This is a very difficult question. You are delving into territory I am unfamiliar with. I am not sure if making such a wish would bar you from using magical girl abilities at all, give you a rechargeable reservoir of power and ban you from most magical girl abilities, or fall short and merely prevent negative emotions from generating Grief. I am afraid I simply do not know the answer to your question. If you do decide to wish for such a thing, I recommend open-ended phrasing so as to prevent reaching beyond your potential."





    [] Ask Kyubey more questions.
    -[] Write-in

    [] Ask Azura more questions.
    -[] Write-in

    [] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating. It might be a bit rude to eat in front of them, but telepathy would prevent you from speaking with your mouth full.
    -[] Ask Kyubey and Azura to please leave.
    --[] Ask them to just leave you alone until you actually gain access to Green mana. You don't really expect them to listen, but it might be worth a try.

    [] Accept Azura's offer to use her property for your experiment.

    [] Write-in

    New potentially important sub-option for write-in "make a wish". Likely not going to come up since most people don't want to wish, but whatever.

    [] Make a wish.
    -[] Tell Azura you are going to make a wish before you actually do it.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Sereg said:
    Nope. Ordinary people don't need grief seeds, so it's not natural to need them, so if we have the ability to make things more natural, we can simply decide to not need them either.
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    Ordinary people don't use magic either.
    Sereg said:
    You yourself said you didn't want to read them. I linked them so you could see the proof. If you wanted quotes, you just had to ask, but yes, I didn't want to give them because I was struggling to get the sites to load.
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    I apologize, I was assuming you knew how citations work. Citations are where you tell where you got something from so that people can easily go back and see what you are talking about. Traditionally it is considered helpful to also put in page numbers so that they can check without having to read the entire work.

    If you direct someone to something that doesn't say what you say it does then it isn't really a citation. If someone goes to what you have cited and says "uh, it doesn't say that" the burden of proof is then on you to quote the relevant passage to show that "yes, it does say that" or it no longer counts as a relevant citation. Therefore if I ask for a citation you need to either give a new citation or a quote proving that your old citation is in fact correct. If you don't then anything you say has no more weight to it than anything anyone else says.

    Sereg said:
    I never said they were one and the same. I said that magic can be generated by any emotional switch.
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    You are pretty much conflating emotions and magic. If magic is powered by emotions that would be one thing. Since you are saying magic is generated by emotions then even if you aren't saying that they are one in the same you are close enough for me to ask for a citation.

    Sereg said:
    Kyubey:
    My civilization created a technology that converts the emotions of a sentient lifeform into energy.

    "the emotions" means "every single emotion". If that were not true, that would be a lie instead of a Kyuubeyism. Homura herself uses love and Madoka uses hope and they still perform magic. Indeed, as Kyuubey was trying to make himself look better, there is no way he wouldn't have said that other emotions don't allow magic if that were true. In fact, he would have mentioned every single advantage of using grief. As such, it's completely impossible for grief to not be the absolute worst possible emotion to use from the magical girl's perspective on absultely every single level.
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    My civilization created a technology that converts the emotions of a sentient lifeform into energy.
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    Nowhere does it say "emotions fuel magic" it says that emotions are converted via technology into energy. Those are two separate statements. The KyuCol uses sufficiently advanced tech so why can't that be applied to MGs?

    Sereg said:
    Your souls are your real bodies.
    It's placed inside the compact vessel, where they're easier to protect, and where you can control your magic more efficiently.

    By definition, this requires it to be possible to be used without Soul Gems. Also, as Kyuubey was defending Soul gems at this point, if there were any additional negative effects, such as having extra costs or making magic impossible, Kyuubey would definately have mentioned them. That means it's impossible for there to be other negative effects.
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    That means it's impossible for there to be other negative effects.
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    No it doesn't. Even if you argue that it makes it highly improbable for there to be other negative effects that still isn't the same as impossible.
    and where you can control your magic more efficiently.

    By definition, this requires it to be possible to be used without Soul Gems.
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    If the magic you can do without a soul gem is almost indistinguishable from things that can be done without it then you could still use magic but not to a point that it would be useful.

    Sereg said:
    Kyubey:
    My civilization created a technology that converts the emotions of a sentient lifeform into energy.

    This means that accruel is not natural, but an addition. Even if it was, we just naturalise the emotions without naturalising the magic.
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    First of all, I don't think that word thinks what you mean. What is the natural state of emotions? People get sad/angry/other negative emotions all the time.

    Second,
    without naturalising the magic.
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    Wasn't one of the core pillars of your argument was that magic was natural?

    Lastly, the ability to convert something does not mean that something cannot accrue naturally. We can convert uranium into electricity but it still occurs naturally in nature.


    Sereg said:
    Homura bit it in half and was fine.
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    I was going to post something in response to this but @OverReactionGuy did it much better by using the actual example from the show so kudos to him.

    Sereg said:
    EDIT: Completely deleting grief from existence is something ordinary people do all the time. Grief is grief is grief. People recover from grief all the time with no magic whatsoever.
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    And most people don't use any magic whatsoever. And if being a magical girl and using your abilities causes faster grief accrual then perhaps MG's can recover from grief but it's at such a small rate than their accrual and so the grief they have is a net gain.
     
    I think we should make a wish before we get our Green magic, or else our potential will decrease. Higher our potential, the better the chances of getting away with stuff like Incorruptible Soul Gems and what-not.
     
    [X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating. It might be a bit rude to eat in front of them, but telepathy would prevent you from speaking with your mouth full.
    -[X] Ask Kyubey and Azura to please leave.

    [X] Accept Azura's offer to use her property for your experiment.

    LostDeviljho said:
    He probably just stares at the unread threads page alot like I do.
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    You too?
     
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