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Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition)

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Alivaril said:
Azura glares at you. "And you're just wasting it."
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Mhmmm.

Alivaril said:
"Could I wish so that I would never generate any grief at all? Ever? Without damaging my personality, mind, or soul, that is. Basically, if it makes me who I am, would it be harmed by trying?"

Kyubey stares at you for almost a full minute before answering.

"I believe such a thing may be possible, but your Soul Gem would not be indestructible.
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Hn. Annoying. What part of not accumulating grief is mutually exclusive with the indestructibility, I wonder?
 
Quest said:
I think we should make a wish before we get our Green magic, or else our potential will decrease. Higher our potential, the better the chances of getting away with stuff like Incorruptible Soul Gems and what-not.
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But our potential going down is the whole point of that. Because it means that we're suffering less. Which is good.
 
So lets try get Kyubey to admit that Jade became a Magic Girl and that she only killed Witches, Sorceresses, and or Kyubeys.

[X] Talk to Kyubey.
-[x] So tell more me about that other girl who awoke her power, what was her name?, anyway what was the reason that she never became a magical girl?
--[X] If he admits that Jade made a wish. "So if you don't understand the power that well how do you know that it wasn't the unnaturalness of the gook inside the gem caused her to start attacking people?
-[x] Who and how many people did she kill? Why don't most people know about her?
 
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LostDeviljho said:
Hn. Annoying. What part of not accumulating grief is mutually exclusive with the indestructibility, I wonder?
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With neither witching nor gemshots being effective against us, he wouldn't be able to get rid of us if we became a problem. Given his certainty there when he's not sure about the rest, I have no doubt that this is a decision he's making rather than a natural limitation.
 
LostDeviljho said:
The entire point of the indestructible gem was so he could science it better, though.
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If my earlier musings about Kyubey siphoning off power to make the wish are correct then if our wish to not have grief happened it would kick in first and make him unable to use it to create the indestructibility.
Torgamous said:
With neither witching nor gemshots being effective against us, he wouldn't be able to get rid of us if we became a problem. Given his certainty there when he's not sure about the rest, I have no doubt that this is a decision he's making rather than a natural limitation.
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We can try to nail him on that also then. Probably won't but we can try.

[X] Talk to Kyubey.
-[X] So tell more me about that other girl who awoke her power, what was her name?, anyway what was the reason that she never became a magical girl?
--[X] If he admits that Jade made a wish. "So if you don't understand the power that well how do you know that it wasn't the unnaturalness of the gook inside the gem caused her to start attacking people?
-[X] Who and how many people did she kill? Why don't most people know about her?
--[X] if he admits to her not killing anyone but Sorc/Witch/Kyu. "Why did you try to make it sound like she started killing humans?
-[X] Why wouldn't our soul gem be indestructible if we made a wish to not have grief?
-[X] You mentioned that wishing beyond my potential is dangerous. Will it kill me? If not then why?
--[X] if the answer is some version of "it will reduce your reserves to such a small amount that you will X." Are there anything other dangers that could result from wishing beyond my potential?
---[X] If the answer is some variation of "yes." What are they?
[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating. It might be a bit rude to eat in front of them, but telepathy would prevent you from speaking with your mouth full.
[X] Accept Azura's offer to use her property for your experiment.

Anyone else have any other questions?
 
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Paradox said:
If my earlier musings about Kyubey siphoning off power to make the wish are correct then if our wish to not have grief happened it would kick in first and make him unable to use it to create the indestructibility.
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He doesn't power it with grief, he uses the release of Potential (ahaha) energy.

But yeah, it's only because he doesn't want an immortal green mage running around.
 
[X] Start eating your lunch. You wouldn't want to go the entire period without eating. It might be a bit rude to eat in front of them, but telepathy would prevent you from speaking with your mouth full.
[X] Accept Azura's offer to use her property for your experiment.

A possible wish would be for the ability to remove the Grief from her Soul Gem without a Grief Seed.
 
chocolote12 said:
He doesn't power it with grief, he uses the release of Potential (ahaha) energy.

But yeah, it's only because he doesn't want an immortal green mage running around.
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If potential = grief then by wishing away our grief removes the majority of our potential (other emotion work but not near as well) therefore possibly leaving him with little to work with.
 
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Paradox said:
If potential = grief then by wishing away our grief removes the majority of our potential (other emotion work but not near as well) therefore possibly leaving him with little to work with.
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Where did Potential = Grief come from? Last I checked it was something more like metaphysical significance...
 
chocolote12 said:
Where did Potential = Grief come from? Last I checked it was something more like metaphysical significance...
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It's mostly "well if being in bad circumstance increases your potential then is grief (negative emotions) possibly connected to potential due to the fact that they'll grow in the same circumstances?" It's not something I'll defend as correct but it is something to think about at least.
 
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Paradox said:
It's mostly "well if being in bad circumstance increases your potential then is grief (negative emotions) possibly connected to potential due to the fact that they'll grow in the same circumstances?" It's not something I'll defend as correct but it is something to think about at least.
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That's always confused me too. Where was it said that suffering increased potential? The only thing they say in the show is that it's related to how important you are (in the grand scheme of things).
 
Paradox said:
I don't suppose you have the actual quote on you somewhere so we can try to parse it?
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The bit where they explain Madoka's potential, and how it's because every time a new universe was created it was just to save her, and that's why she was so important.

How does one even straight up quote the forms of media PMMM comes in, anyway?
 
chocolote12 said:
How does one even straight up quote the forms of media PMMM comes in, anyway?
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What? :confused:
chocolote12 said:
The bit where they explain Madoka's potential, and how it's because every time a new universe was created it was just to save her, and that's why she was so important.
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Well if "Karma" and "Potential" were to both refer to grief then possibly her "Weight" is equal to the total amount of grief held by every instance of Madoka in all of those universes? Or same universe in the case of the Ignitionverse.

Also perhaps it is somehow retroactive? That would explain how people who are otherwise not important in the big picture unless they become Magical Girls all of a sudden have "great potential?" Hm... if that were true then it could be their future actions which are sacrificed to give them power? Trading in the potential to do what they would have do in exchange for burning brightly for but a moment before burning out...
 
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chocolote12 said:
That's always confused me too. Where was it said that suffering increased potential? The only thing they say in the show is that it's related to how important you are (in the grand scheme of things).
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It's part of the Ignition AU. it's never properly explained in Canon how potential works (at least, I don't think it is), but in ignition it is by WoQM how much you're currently suffering. it's the potential energy of the grief that you currently hold within you that determines how big a wish you can make and how big your max grief reserves are after subtracting what's needed for your wish.
 
...So which would be better, indestructible soul with only the threat of witching to worry about, or Standard MG power with no threat of witching, but no resistance to everything else?
Because I'm legitimately torn here.
 
Paradox said:
Ordinary people don't use magic either.
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This doesn't even begin to be relevant. I'm suggesting wishing for the ability to naturilise anything we want on a conceptual level, separating naturalised from unnaturalised concepts as we desire and to have them interact exactly as we want them to. Ordinary people can't sit in burning furnaces or swim in liquid helium, but that's not what we're naturalising. We're naturalising our body temperature, so yes, we can do that. Ordinary people can't walk on neutron stars, but we're not naturalising that. We're naturlising our body structure and mobility, so yes, we can do that.

What I' saying is, even if it was completely impossible under any circumstances to use magic without accumulating grief (which it isn't), we'd be able to anyway, because that's what we wished for.

I apologize, I was assuming you knew how citations work. Citations are where you tell where you got something from so that people can easily go back and see what you are talking about. Traditionally it is considered helpful to also put in page numbers so that they can check without having to read the entire work.
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I know how citations work. I have a masters degree. Normally, they only use page numbers for books, which this wasn't. It had no page numbers to cite. And again, I wasn't quoting because I was struggling to get them to load.

If you direct someone to something that doesn't say what you say it does then it isn't really a citation. If someone goes to what you have cited and says "uh, it doesn't say that" the burden of proof is then on you to quote the relevant passage to show that "yes, it does say that" or it no longer counts as a relevant citation. Therefore if I ask for a citation you need to either give a new citation or a quote proving that your old citation is in fact correct. If you don't then anything you say has no more weight to it than anything anyone else says.
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Except that wasn't what you said. You said that you didn't want to read through it.

You are pretty much conflating emotions and magic. If magic is powered by emotions that would be one thing. Since you are saying magic is generated by emotions then even if you aren't saying that they are one in the same you are close enough for me to ask for a citation.
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No. I said "can be" generated, which is equivalent to powered here.


Nowhere does it say "emotions fuel magic" it says that emotions are converted via technology into energy. Those are two separate statements. The KyuCol uses sufficiently advanced tech so why can't that be applied to MGs?
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Magic is the energy. They specifically call it energy tat defies the laws of physics, which the same description they give to magic. They are the same thing.


No it doesn't. Even if you argue that it makes it highly improbable for there to be other negative effects that still isn't the same as impossible.
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Yes, it is. And anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand Kyuubey's role in the show. It is not improbable. It is completely and utterly impossible in absolutely any circumstance no matter how hard you try to justify it. Anything otherwise would turn several scenes and themes from the show into absolute farce. If you accept that this scene happened, you are forced to accept that it's completely impossible to have other negative effects.

If the magic you can do without a soul gem is almost indistinguishable from things that can be done without it then you could still use magic but not to a point that it would be useful.
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If that we're true, Kyuubey would have said it, which he didn't, so it's definitely not true.

First of all, I don't think that word thinks what you mean. What is the natural state of emotions? People get sad/angry/other negative emotions all the time.
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Which word? And that's exactly what I mean. The natural state of emotions is to change. To be mutable. To not be stuck in one state until cleansing.

Second,

Wasn't one of the core pillars of your argument was that magic was natural?
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Nope. That's irrelevant. It doesn't require grief, but even if it did, the wish I'm suggesting would allow us to do it without accumulating grief anyway.

Lastly, the ability to convert something does not mean that something cannot accrue naturally. We can convert uranium into electricity but it still occurs naturally in nature.
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I never said it can't accrue naturally. But natural grief can convert to other emotions. Soul Gem grief can't. If we naturalised it, we'd recover fro grief as easily as a normal person.



And most people don't use any magic whatsoever. And if being a magical girl and using your abilities causes faster grief accrual then perhaps MG's can recover from grief but it's at such a small rate than their accrual and so the grief they have is a net gain.
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If that were true, MGs would be completely suicidal upon one spec of grief, so that's clearly not the case.

LostDeviljho said:
Mhmmm.


Hn. Annoying. What part of not accumulating grief is mutually exclusive with the indestructibility, I wonder?
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The part where he wants us to witch out, so if we can't, we are worth less to him and therefore not worth the effort of making indestructible.
 
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chocolote12 said:
That's always confused me too. Where was it said that suffering increased potential? The only thing they say in the show is that it's related to how important you are (in the grand scheme of things).
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Kyuubey says, "The power of a magical girl is equal to the despair she is destined to experience"
 
LostDeviljho said:
...So which would be better, indestructible soul with only the threat of witching to worry about, or Standard MG power with no threat of witching, but no resistance to everything else?
Because I'm legitimately torn here.
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False choice, the correct answer is neither. :p

The serious answer is the second though. A stronger body along with Green being activated.
 
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