Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)

[Mechanis]

After a close debate, it is decided to build the Guardian as a coniculiar type hull, with a base size of 245 kilotons. This presents, effectively, four potential configurations, in light of various efficiency factors: firstly, a single-hull design with a final mass of 295 kilotons would be the least expensive possible configuration, possibly allowing an extra ship or two to be squeezed out of the budget each tranche. Secondly, a pair of small 25 KT secondary hulls could be added, for a final mass of 355 kilotons, which would be a 'budget' option at only 3 additional Civilian Industry. Thirdly, a 61 KT hull could be added at a cost of 4 additional Civilian Industry, for a final mass of 376 kilotons. Finally, a trio of smaller 25 kiloton hulls could be added for 5 additional Civilian Industry, making the total mass of the ship 390 kilotons.

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Secondly there is the matter of hull materials: a simple Duranium hull would be cheaper, allowing either more ships to be built or for more to be invested elsewhere. On the other hand, even with energy shields, the Torkan Nebula incident more than proved the hull polerization system's worth, and there is something to be said for still being fairly difficult to damage even after the shields are knocked out.
Orthogonal to either of those choices, there are the new Emergency Force Fields to consider. While installing the necessary emitters would require a nontrivial amount of extra cost, the enormous improvement to durability that the system allows makes it a must-have in the eyes of many.

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[ ] Add no extra hulls
[ ] Add a pair of 25 kt hulls (+3 CI hull cost)
[ ] Add a 61 kt hull (+4 CI hull cost)
[ ] Add a trio of 25 kt hulls (+5 CI hull cost)

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[ ] Use a duranium hull
[ ] Add Polarized Hull Plating

- [ ] …and make it standard-issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include polarized plating by default, unless/until made obsolete or incompatible with other hull technologies]​

[ ] Add Emergency Force Fields

- [ ] …and make them standard issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include emergency force fields by default].​

- [ ] …and make them standard issue for all ships in the future [costs of emergency force fields will be rolled into base hull cost, and all future ships will be equipped with the system.]​

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Please Vote By Plan ​

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One Hour Moratorium ​

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​

Mechanis threw 3 6-faced dice. Reason: Write-in Total: 11

 

[Karugus]

Cost chart. This doesn't take into account the higher cost of the 2nd gen EFF or Polarized Hull. It does cover cloaks and shields.
I will note that with secondary hulls we are up to basically the mass of the largest ship. "a ship this size would likely need to have at least modest secondary functionally to justify its costs, even given the current perception of urgent need"

Click to shrink...

We can probably afford a pretty large (possibly running from flank to flank) flight deck, to be loaded with shuttlepods for utility work as needed along with a decent scientific suite. Stick a few extra sensors on where we have the space and we should have a decent multi-purpose cruiser.

And we should probably keep in mind runtime with our charts and estimates, it's not as obvious as power but it a far bigger limit on our ability to operate more weapons and modules than power in both the CI cost and the sheer space more computer cores take up.

Secondly there is the matter of hull materials: a simple Duranium hull would be cheaper, allowing either more ships to be built or for more to be invested elsewhere. On the other hand, even with energy shields, the Torkan Nebula incident more than proved the system's worth, and there is something to be said for still being fairly difficult to damage even after the shields are knocked out.
Orthogonal to either of those choices, there are the new Emergency Force Fields to consider. While installing the necessary emitters would require a nontrivial amount of extra cost, the enormous improvement to durability that the system allows makes it a must-have in the eyes of many.

Click to shrink...

Something to consider for voters, rules as written- these also boost our shield's output.

Generation 1 Shields provide Defense equal to the ship's Endurance, multiplied by their energy consumption divided by ten (Rounded up).

Click to shrink...

 

[chaotic-logic]

i would like for a polarized hull with it being standard in all military ships and emergency shields that are standard for all future ships.
while this is mores expensive it gives our ships a better chance to survive whatever is thrown at them

 

[Mechanis]

Something to consider for voters, rules as written- these also boost our shield's output.

Click to shrink...

I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice that, ha. And yes, that's entirely on purpose.

 

[blankmask]

Right. I want the hull polarization, and the emergency force fields should be standard for everything. Frankly it does great things for our survivability and mitigates one of the main dangers of space travel (decompression).

The boost to shields is just icing on the cake.

 

[inirlan]

One thing to note on the camp of greater hull toughness, you can't have shields and cloaks active at the same time, right? So there is a window when uncloaking where the ship is vulnerable.

 

[Jalinth]

We can probably afford a pretty large (possibly running from flank to flank) flight deck, to be loaded with shuttlepods for utility work as needed along with a decent scientific suite. Stick a few extra sensors on where we have the space and we should have a decent multi-purpose cruiser.

And we should probably keep in mind runtime with our charts and estimates, it's not as obvious as power but it a far bigger limit on our ability to operate more weapons and modules than power.

Click to shrink...

I'll add runtime to the chart, just so many things I've been trying to look at. I've spent the last couple hours working on charts and analysis. Once the end size of the ship is determined I'll post a single weapons chart.

I'm the one who put EFF into the tech plan. I am here for it. The extra durability is quite large. The Polarized Hull is a smaller benefit but it's still noteworthy. I'm going to vote for making them standard on all future ships.

I'll let someone else come up with a plan otherwise. I'm not the one invested in the secondary hulls.

I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice that, ha. And yes, that's entirely on purpose.

Click to shrink...

Umm..

I keep forgetting to mention that we skipped Gen 1 Emergency Force Fields and went straight to Gen 2. This is a big jump in END, which I think will improve shield strength as well. I'm going to push hard for it.]

Click to shrink...

That said can you clarify how much it extra it costs? The Gen 1 was about 5.2% increase in cost. The Gen 2 looks like it's 150%. 1.5 extra per 20 tons is how it's worded. Is that correct?

Generation 1 Emergency Force Fields
Option to increase Endurance from a base of 1 per 10 ktons (rounded up) to 1.25 per 10 ktons (Rounded up); this increases hull cost from 1 CI per 20 ktons to 1 CI per 19 ktons.

Click to shrink...

Generation 2 Emergency Force Fields multiply final Endurance by 1.5, requiring an additional 1.5 Civilian Industry per 20 kilotons of ship mass. Emergency Force Fields do not impact the Module Grid. Fractional Cost Values are rounded up to the nearest tenth; Fractional resource generation is rounded up to the nearest integer.

Click to shrink...

 

[Karugus]

I only now just checked on what the Gen 2 EFF entails, that flat multiplier actually pretty enormous because we know the Cone gets a base endurance improvement and the polarization is now going to be multiplied.

One thing to note on the camp of greater hull toughness, you can't have shields and cloaks active at the same time, right? So there is a window when uncloaking where the ship is vulnerable.

Click to shrink...

Yes, we don't know how it's modeled/abstracted in combat, but as things stand we have to raise shields once we decloak. So there's value in a stronger hull from that window of vulnerability, from how it boosts our shields, and just from a final defensive layer.

[] Plan: Stalwart Trident
-[ ] Add a trio of 25 kt hulls (+5 CI hull cost)
-[ ] Add Polarized Hull Plating
--[ ] …and make it standard-issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include polarized plating by default, unless/until made obsolete or incompatible with other hull technologies]
-[ ] Add Emergency Force Fields
-- [ ] …and make them standard issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include emergency force fields by default].
-- [ ] (Write in) Roll Generation 1 out as standard for all ships not using Generation 2

Here's a plan for when the moratorium ends, I know some people are going to want to add the EFF to every ship, but if @Jalinth's right and the Gen 2 is much more expensive than the Gen 1, we probably should be a bit more circumspect in how we use it. This leaves the option open to using it on a non-military ship without basically guaranteeing it's upwards of ~30% more expensive than a ship without it. Besides, a non-military ship isn't going to have a cloak and the same incentives towards peak hull strength a military ship is.

 

[KNakamura]

I'd rather just make them flat required. It's something we'll need later.

 

[Jalinth]

If I'm right about the prices, I'd be willing to roll the Generation 1 EFF into all ships. That is such a tiny cost it's a silly not to take it. Like I said 5.2% increase in CI. Heck, it even makes sense in-character. The newest gen stuff MIGHT be rolled out to civilian ships if needed, but the slightly inferior safety equipment can be made standard.

-- [ ] (Write in) Roll Generation 1 out as standard for all ships not using Generation 2

390 ktons

[Edit - Tables that were here got moved down a couple posts, along with some other info]

 

[thepsyborg]

It's always something. Yeah, I screwed that one up. Here are some corrected charts for the current program.

Spoiler: 295 ktons (245 Base hull)

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Weapons for a 295 hull.
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Type 1 Disruptor: 5 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 15
You save 50%
Type 1 Disruptor: Total Cost = 7.5
The 5 gun Type 1 Disruptor battery does 10 SD, 10 BD, and uses 30 power.
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Type 4a Disruptor: 4 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 26.0
You save 60%
Type 4a Disruptor: Total Cost = 10.4
The 4 gun Type 4a Disruptor battery does 7.0 SD, 12 BD, and uses 32 power.
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Type 4b Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 19.4
You save 30%
Type 4b Disruptor: Total Cost = 13.6
The 2 gun Type 4b Disruptor battery does 9.6 SD, 14 BD, and uses 26 power.
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Spoiler: 330 ktons (245 Base hull)

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Weapons for a 330 hull.
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Type 1 Disruptor: 6 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 18
You save 50%
Type 1 Disruptor: Total Cost = 9.0
The 6 gun Type 1 Disruptor battery does 12 SD, 12 BD, and uses 36 power.
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Type 4a Disruptor: 5 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 32.5
You save 75%
Type 4a Disruptor: Total Cost = 8.1
The 5 gun Type 4a Disruptor battery does 8.8 SD, 15 BD, and uses 40 power.
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Type 4b Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 19.4
You save 30%
Type 4b Disruptor: Total Cost = 13.6
The 2 gun Type 4b Disruptor battery does 9.6 SD, 14 BD, and uses 26 power.
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Spoiler: 355 ktons (245 Base hull)

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Weapons for a 355 hull.
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Type 1 Disruptor: 7 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 21
You save 50%
Type 1 Disruptor: Total Cost = 10.5
The 7 gun Type 1 Disruptor battery does 14 SD, 14 BD, and uses 42 power.
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Type 2 Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 20
You save 16%
Type 2 Disruptor: Total Cost = 16.8
The 2 gun Type 2 Disruptor battery does 11.0 SD, 16 BD, and uses 32 power.
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Type 4a Disruptor: 5 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 32.5
You save 75%
Type 4a Disruptor: Total Cost = 8.1
The 5 gun Type 4a Disruptor battery does 8.8 SD, 15 BD, and uses 40 power.
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Type 4b Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 19.4
You save 30%
Type 4b Disruptor: Total Cost = 13.6
The 2 gun Type 4b Disruptor battery does 9.6 SD, 14 BD, and uses 26 power.
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Spoiler: 390 ktons (245 Base hull)

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Weapons for a 390 hull.
---
Type 1 Disruptor: 7 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 21
You save 50%
Type 1 Disruptor: Total Cost = 10.5
The 7 gun Type 1 Disruptor battery does 14 SD, 14 BD, and uses 42 power.
---

Type 2 Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 20
You save 16%
Type 2 Disruptor: Total Cost = 16.8
The 2 gun Type 2 Disruptor battery does 11.0 SD, 16 BD, and uses 32 power.
---

Type 4a Disruptor: 6 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 39.0
You save 80%
Type 4a Disruptor: Total Cost = 7.8
The 6 gun Type 4a Disruptor battery does 10.5 SD, 18 BD, and uses 48 power.
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Type 4b Disruptor: 3 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 29.1
You save 45%
Type 4b Disruptor: Total Cost = 16.0
The 3 gun Type 4b Disruptor battery does 14.4 SD, 21 BD, and uses 39 power.
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Type 4c Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 25.6
You save 30%
Type 4c Disruptor: Total Cost = 17.9
The 2 gun Type 4c Disruptor battery does 13.2 SD, 31.0 BD, and uses 44 power.
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Spoiler: 376 ktons (245 Base hull)

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Weapons for a 376 hull.
---
Type 1 Disruptor: 7 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 21
You save 50%
Type 1 Disruptor: Total Cost = 10.5
The 7 gun Type 1 Disruptor battery does 14 SD, 14 BD, and uses 42 power.
---

Type 2 Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 20
You save 16%
Type 2 Disruptor: Total Cost = 16.8
The 2 gun Type 2 Disruptor battery does 11.0 SD, 16 BD, and uses 32 power.
---

Type 4a Disruptor: 5 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 32.5
You save 75%
Type 4a Disruptor: Total Cost = 8.1
The 5 gun Type 4a Disruptor battery does 8.8 SD, 15 BD, and uses 40 power.
---

Type 4b Disruptor: 2 guns can fit in the Battery. Without savings they would cost 19.4
You save 30%
Type 4b Disruptor: Total Cost = 13.6
The 2 gun Type 4b Disruptor battery does 9.6 SD, 14 BD, and uses 26 power.
---

Edit - I modified my code to output tables so...
295 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	5	15	50%	7.5	10	10	7.5	30
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	4	26.0	60%	10.4	7.0	12	0	32
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	2	19.4	30%	13.6	9.6	14	0	26

330 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	6	18	50%	9.0	12	12	9.0	36
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	5	32.5	75%	8.1	8.8	15	0	40
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	2	19.4	30%	13.6	9.6	14	0	26

355 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	7	21	50%	10.5	14	14	10.5	42
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	2	20	16%	16.8	11.0	16	0.6	32
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	5	32.5	75%	8.1	8.8	15	0	40
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	2	19.4	30%	13.6	9.6	14	0	26

390 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	7	21	50%	10.5	14	14	10.5	42
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	2	20	16%	16.8	11.0	16	0.6	32
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	6	39.0	80%	7.8	10.5	18	0	48
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	3	29.1	45%	16.0	14.4	21	0	39
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	2	25.6	30%	17.9	13.2	31.0	0	44

376 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	7	21	50%	10.5	14	14	10.5	42
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	2	20	16%	16.8	11.0	16	0.6	32
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	5	32.5	75%	8.1	8.8	15	0	40
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	2	19.4	30%	13.6	9.6	14	0	26

So Nacelles are a full 10 KT for every 50 KT of mass of the ship. A 51kt ship has 20 ton nacelles. I know I had this wrong on my spreadsheet for the longest time.



Here are the details for Thrusters. If we don't use secondary hulls we will need 3 thrusters for Medium Maneuverability. The rest will need 4. We don't know how many thrusters are needed to get to the higher tier of maneuverability. Thrusters eat a lot of CI budget. I'm not sure that mounting 3 thrusters outboard will give more then just mounting 6 thrusters. Hopefully Mechanics will give us some ballpark figures for how many we need to get above medium.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I'm semi-assuming "one in each radial, 1-3 more centrally aft on the main hull as needed for High maneuverability" and hoping the radial ones save us a central engine to hit High. Two instead of three, one instead of two, whatever. But we'll see.

The Gen 1 was about 5.2% increase in cost. The Gen 2 looks like it's 150%

Click to shrink...

Holy moly.

-- [ ] (Write in) Roll Generation 1 out as standard for all ships not using Generation 2

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I like the sound of this EDIT: depending on the degree to which we "skipped" Gen1, at least. Is Gen1 even available?

 

[Karugus]

[X] Plan: Stalwart Trident
-[X] Add a trio of 25 kt hulls (+5 CI hull cost)
-[X] Add Polarized Hull Plating
--[X] …and make it standard-issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include polarized plating by default, unless/until made obsolete or incompatible with other hull technologies]
-[X] Add Emergency Force Fields
--[X] …and make them standard issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include emergency force fields by default].
--[X] (Write in) Roll Generation 1 out as standard for all ships not using Generation 2

And so it begins. I'm thinking between three type4b radial batteries and a type4c prow battery we should have most of our firepower accounted for. I'm stuck on a phone, but that should be 20+3(18) runtime. Which means with a runtime of ~76 from 320kt before nacelle… pretty much every other combat runtime use is going to require aux computers.

 

[Jalinth]

Well it's been an hour. There has been no suggestions in the discussions for anything other then 3 secondary hulls for the ship and while I think there is virtue in keeping the costs down, I just don't have the energy to make the argument nor do I think it would win if I did. So I'll back the Trident plan. It should look pretty impressive when it's done.

Here is my calculations for the END of this ship with

Hull + Polarized	39+6
Total with EFF	68

[X] Plan: Stalwart Trident
-[X] Add a trio of 25 kt hulls (+5 CI hull cost)
-[X] Add Polarized Hull Plating
--[X] …and make it standard-issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include polarized plating by default, unless/until made obsolete or incompatible with other hull technologies]
-[X] Add Emergency Force Fields
-- [X] …and make them standard issue for future military ships. [future dedicated combat designs will include emergency force fields by default].
-- [X] (Write in) Roll Generation 1 out as standard for all ships not using Generation 2

 

[Silversun17]

[X] Plan: Stalwart Trident

And so it begins. I'm thinking between three type4b radial batteries and a type4c

Click to shrink...

Do you mean the type 4 cannons or the type 3 doom beams?

 

[inirlan]

[X] Plan: Stalwart Trident

Hostile imperialist alien : Huzzah! We finally brought down those monstrous shields and got some solid blows in! Tactical, report damage on target.

What do you mean "we just dinged them"?

 

[thepsyborg]

[X] Plan: Stalwart Trident
Perfect.

Do you mean the type 4 cannons or the type 3 doom beams?

Click to shrink...

That's...surprisingly open to debate, actually. I want a Type 3c doombeam forward, but there's a very strong chance that triple 4bs fit better in the radials, and a nonzero chance they end up being better than the spinal doombeam forward, too, thanks to battery breakpoints. We'll see how the runtime math shakes out.

 

[Jalinth]

Weapons of the Stellar Union

Department of Starship Design Tables: Weapons | Ships | Warp Speed Chart | Operational Ranges

This is a collection of charts detailing our current weapon systems.


Basic Weapon Tables

Name	Size	Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Particle Gun	1x2	1 MI	1	-		1
Particle Lance	2x2	2 MI	4	-		2.5
Photonic Torpedo Tube	1x2	2 MI	-	3.5		2
(Small) Laser Battery	1x1	0.5 CI	0.2	-		0.5
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	3	2	2	1.5	6	3
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	10	5.5	8	0.3	16	6
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	7.2	3.2	5	0.2	15	9
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	9.3	8.3	10	0.1	19	12
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	14	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	6.2	1.8	3	0	8	4
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	9.7	4.8	7	0	13	6
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	12.8	6.6	15.5	0	22	10

This chart shows the average sustained and burst damage per unit of cost. It values BD at twice that of SD, due to the Cloak doubling the BD.

Name	AV D/Space	AV D/Cost	AV D/power	AV D/runtime
Photonic Torpedo Tube	0.44	0.88	0.88
Type 1 Disruptor	3.00	1.00	0.50	1.00
Type 2 Disruptor	2.69	1.08	0.67	1.79
Type 3a Disruptor	3.30	0.92	0.44	0.73
Type 3b Disruptor	2.36	1.52	0.74	1.18
Type 3c Disruptor	2.28	1.95	1.05	1.82
Type 4a Disruptor	1.94	0.63	0.48	0.97
Type 4b Disruptor	1.57	0.97	0.72	1.57
Type 4c Disruptor	1.57	1.47	0.85	1.88

Spoiler: The numbers for the older weapons

Name	AV D/Space	AV D/Cost	AV D/power	AV D/runtime
Particle Gun	0.25	0.50	0.50
Particle Lance	0.50	1.00	0.80
Photonic Torpedo Tube	0.44	0.88	0.88
(Small) Laser Battery	0.10	0.20	0.20
Medium Laser Battery	0.10	0.27	0.20
Large Laser Battery	0.10	0.30	0.20
Light Laser Cannon	0.13	0.13	0.25
Medium Laser Cannon	0.13	0.20	0.25
Heavy Laser Cannon	0.11	0.25	0.29

Spoiler: Full Efficiency Chart

Name	SD/Space	BD/Space	AV D/Space	SD / cost	BD/Cost	AV D/Cost	SD/power	BD/power	AV D/power	SD/runtime	BD/runtime	AV D/runtime
Particle Gun	0.50	0.00	0.25	1.00	0.00	0.50	1.00	0.00	0.50
Particle Lance	1.00	0.00	0.50	2.00	0.00	1.00	1.60	0.00	0.80
Photonic Torpedo Tube	0.00	1.75	0.44	0.00	3.50	0.88	0.00	3.50	0.88
(Small) Laser Battery	0.20	0.00	0.10	0.40	0.00	0.20	0.40	0.00	0.20
Medium Laser Battery	0.20	0.00	0.10	0.53	0.00	0.27	0.40	0.00	0.20
Large Laser Battery	0.20	0.00	0.10	0.60	0.00	0.30	0.40	0.00	0.20
Light Laser Cannon	0.25	0.00	0.13	0.25	0.00	0.13	0.50	0.00	0.25
Medium Laser Cannon	0.25	0.00	0.13	0.40	0.00	0.20	0.50	0.00	0.25
Heavy Laser Cannon	0.22	0.00	0.11	0.50	0.00	0.25	0.57	0.00	0.29
Type 1 Disruptor	2.00	4.00	3.00	0.67	1.33	1.00	0.33	0.67	0.50	0.67	1.33	1.00
Type 2 Disruptor	1.38	4.00	2.69	0.55	1.60	1.08	0.34	1.00	0.67	0.92	2.67	1.79
Type 3a Disruptor	1.60	5.00	3.30	0.44	1.39	0.92	0.21	0.67	0.44	0.36	1.11	0.73
Type 3b Disruptor	1.38	3.33	2.36	0.89	2.15	1.52	0.44	1.05	0.74	0.69	1.67	1.18
Type 3c Disruptor	1.23	3.33	2.28	1.05	2.86	1.95	0.57	1.54	1.05	0.98	2.67	1.82
Type 4a Disruptor	0.88	3.00	1.94	0.28	0.97	0.63	0.22	0.75	0.48	0.44	1.50	0.97
Type 4b Disruptor	0.80	2.33	1.57	0.49	1.44	0.97	0.37	1.08	0.72	0.80	2.33	1.57
Type 4c Disruptor	0.55	2.58	1.57	0.52	2.42	1.47	0.30	1.41	0.85	0.66	3.10	1.88

These are more general charts.

Spoiler: 480, 390, 375, 200, 180, 120kton Battery Charts

480 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	9	27	50%	13.5	18	18	13.5	54	27
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	2	20	16%	16.8	11.0	16	0.6	32	12
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	4	28.8	16%	24.2	12.8	20	0.8	60	36
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	2	18.6	8%	17.1	16.6	20	0.2	38	24
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	1	14	0%	14.0	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	7	43.4	80%	8.7	12.2	21	0	56	28
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	3	29.1	45%	16.0	14.4	21	0	39	18
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	2	25.6	30%	17.9	13.2	31.0	0	44	20

390 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	7	21	50%	10.5	14	14	10.5	42	21
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	2	20	16%	16.8	11.0	16	0.6	32	12
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	3	21.6	12%	19.0	9.6	15	0.6	45	27
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.3	0%	9.3	8.3	10	0.1	19	12
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	1	14	0%	14.0	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	6	37.2	80%	7.4	10.5	18	0	48	24
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	3	29.1	45%	16.0	14.4	21	0	39	18
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	2	25.6	30%	17.9	13.2	31.0	0	44	20

375 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	7	21	50%	10.5	14	14	10.5	42	21
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	2	20	16%	16.8	11.0	16	0.6	32	12
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	3	21.6	12%	19.0	9.6	15	0.6	45	27
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.3	0%	9.3	8.3	10	0.1	19	12
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	1	14	0%	14.0	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	5	31.0	75%	7.8	8.8	15	0	40	20
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	2	19.4	30%	13.6	9.6	14	0	26	12
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	1	12.8	0%	12.8	6.6	15.5	0	22	10

200 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	4	12	40%	7.2	8	8	6.0	24	12
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	1	10	0%	10.0	5.5	8	0.3	16	6
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	2	14.4	8%	13.2	6.4	10	0.4	30	18
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.3	0%	9.3	8.3	10	0.1	19	12
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	1	14	0%	14.0	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	3	18.6	45%	10.2	5.2	9	0	24	12
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.7	0%	9.7	4.8	7	0	13	6
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	1	12.8	0%	12.8	6.6	15.5	0	22	10

180 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	3	9	30%	6.3	6	6	4.5	18	9
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	1	10	0%	10.0	5.5	8	0.3	16	6
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	1	7.2	0%	7.2	3.2	5	0.2	15	9
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.3	0%	9.3	8.3	10	0.1	19	12
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	1	14	0%	14.0	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	2	12.4	30%	8.7	3.5	6	0	16	8
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.7	0%	9.7	4.8	7	0	13	6
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	1	12.8	0%	12.8	6.6	15.5	0	22	10

120 ktons

Weapon type	Size	Guns	Base Cost	Savings	Total Cost	SD	BD	PD	Power	Runtime
Type 1 Disruptor:	1x1	2	6	20%	4.8	4	4	3.0	12	6
Type 2 Disruptor:	2x2	1	10	0%	10.0	5.5	8	0.3	16	6
Type 3a Disruptor:	1x2	1	7.2	0%	7.2	3.2	5	0.2	15	9
Type 3b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.3	0%	9.3	8.3	10	0.1	19	12
Type 3c Disruptor:	3x4	1	14	0%	14.0	14.7	20	0	26	15
Type 4a Disruptor:	1x2	1	6.2	0%	6.2	1.8	3	0	8	4
Type 4b Disruptor:	2x3	1	9.7	0%	9.7	4.8	7	0	13	6
Type 4c Disruptor:	3x4	1	12.8	0%	12.8	6.6	15.5	0	22	10

Spoiler: How big of a hull do you need for X sized batteries

To mount 2 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 100.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 150.0 ktons
To mount 4 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 200.0 ktons
To mount 5 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 250.0 ktons
To mount 6 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 300.0 ktons
To mount 7 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 350.0 ktons
To mount 8 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 400.0 ktons
To mount 9 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 450.0 ktons
To mount 10 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 500.0 ktons
To mount 11 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 550.0 ktons
To mount 12 Type 1 Disruptors you will need 600.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 2 Disruptors you will need 340.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 2 Disruptors you will need 510.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 3a Disruptors you will need 200.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 3a Disruptors you will need 300.0 ktons
To mount 4 Type 3a Disruptors you will need 400.0 ktons
To mount 5 Type 3a Disruptors you will need 500.0 ktons
To mount 6 Type 3a Disruptors you will need 600.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 3b Disruptors you will need 400.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 3b Disruptors you will need 600.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 3c Disruptors you will need 600.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 130.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 195.0 ktons
To mount 4 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 260.0 ktons
To mount 5 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 325.0 ktons
To mount 6 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 390.0 ktons
To mount 7 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 455.0 ktons
To mount 8 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 520.0 ktons
To mount 9 Type 4a Disruptors you will need 585.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 4b Disruptors you will need 260.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 4b Disruptors you will need 390.0 ktons
To mount 4 Type 4b Disruptors you will need 520.0 ktons
--
To mount 2 Type 4c Disruptors you will need 390.0 ktons
To mount 3 Type 4c Disruptors you will need 585.0 ktons

Spoiler: List of the smallest hull for max savings.

Type 1 Disruptor: 5 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 7.5, with a savings of 50%
This will need a 250.0 kton ship.
The 5 gun Type 1 Disruptor battery does 10 SD, 10 BD, 7.5 PD. It uses 30 power and 15 runtime.
---
Type 2 Disruptor: 7 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 35.0, with a savings of 50%
This will need a 1190.0 kton ship.
The 7 gun Type 2 Disruptor battery does 38.5 SD, 56 BD, 2.1 PD. It uses 112 power and 42 runtime.
---
Type 3a Disruptor: 13 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 46.8, with a savings of 50%
This will need a 1300.0 kton ship.
The 13 gun Type 3a Disruptor battery does 41.6 SD, 65 BD, 2.6 PD. It uses 195 power and 117 runtime.
---
Type 3b Disruptor: 13 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 60.5, with a savings of 50%
This will need a 2600.0 kton ship.
The 13 gun Type 3b Disruptor battery does 107.9 SD, 130 BD, 1.3 PD. It uses 247 power and 156 runtime.
---
Type 3c Disruptor: 13 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 91.0, with a savings of 50%
This will need a 3900.0 kton ship.
The 13 gun Type 3c Disruptor battery does 191.1 SD, 260 BD, 0 PD. It uses 338 power and 195 runtime.
---
Type 4a Disruptor: 6 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 7.4, with a savings of 80%
This will need a 390.0 kton ship.
The 6 gun Type 4a Disruptor battery does 10.5 SD, 18 BD, 0 PD. It uses 48 power and 24 runtime.
---
Type 4b Disruptor: 6 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 11.6, with a savings of 80%
This will need a 780.0 kton ship.
The 6 gun Type 4b Disruptor battery does 28.8 SD, 42 BD, 0 PD. It uses 78 power and 36 runtime.
---
Type 4c Disruptor: 6 guns are needed to maximize savings. The total cost of the battery is 15.4, with a savings of 80%
This will need a 1170.0 kton ship.
The 6 gun Type 4c Disruptor battery does 39.6 SD, 93.0 BD, 0 PD. It uses 132 power and 60 runtime.
---

 

[Karugus]

If we don't mount at least 1 3c on the ship I'm going to riot. Just sayin'

Click to shrink...

I'm willing to consider conceding the prow 4c battery for backing for the triple 4b radials

Do you mean the type 4 cannons or the type 3 doom beams?

Click to shrink...

Type 4c can be double mounted at 390kt, this makes them roughly 50% more burst damage for the same displacement as a 3c. The 3c is definitely more power efficient for S and B, but is less runtime efficient for B.

 

[Jalinth]

That's...surprisingly open to debate, actually. I want a Type 3c doombeam forward, but there's a very strong chance that triple 4bs fit better in the radials, and a nonzero chance they end up being better than the spinal doombeam forward, too, thanks to battery breakpoints. We'll see how the runtime math shakes out.

Click to shrink...

Name	AV D/Space	AV D/Cost	AV D/power	AV D/runtime
Type 3c Disruptor	2.28	1.95	1.05	1.82
3 Gun Type 4b Battery	4.70	1.76	0.72	1.57
2 Gun Type 4c Battery	3.13	2.10	0.85	1.88

Here is a more focused chart, just looking at the 3 primary weapons and the average figures. Again, this values BD at twice the value listed on the damage charts because BD is doubled for cloak.

The Type 3c wins on power.
3x Type 4b wins on space.
2x Type 4c wins on cost and runtime.

The Type 3c is almost as runtime efficient as the 2x Type 4c. The cost is pretty close as well.

Overall there is no single best answer. Which means we CAN use a Type 3c for pure awesome DOOM. Please support me on this if you value even slightly all these tables I've been outputting the last few days. At this point it's all I really care about for this project overall. Give me the DOOM BEAM. Please.

 

[Karugus]

There's also the benefit of experimenting what weapon types/positions get the benefit of the cone's emergent benefit if any of them do in fact qualify.

I do like me a Type 4c battery, but there's definitely room to argue for the 3c

 

[Silversun17]

How about 4b in the radials then do a 3c on the nose and bracket it with the 4c?

 

[Karugus]

How about 4b in the radials then do a 3c on the nose and bracket it with two sets of 4c?

Click to shrink...

There's little chance we can afford either the space or the runtime/power requirements of a 3c and two 4c batteries. Its not a big sacrifice to swap the 4c battery for a 3c

It's important to articulate that these are both really powerful, really power hungry, really complex weapons. A 4c battery is roughly comparable to the entire burst of the Starseeker.

 

[inirlan]

Please support me on this if you value even slightly all these tables I've been outputting the last few days. At this point it's all I really care about for this project overall. Give me the DOOM BEAM. Please.

Click to shrink...

I also want a doom beam and your charts are very handy to easily understand the value of everything.

Ideally with a decent PD/tertiary coverage of Type 1s and whatever secondary battery fits with those two things.

 

[Silversun17]

So if the power budget allows it doom beam in the nose, t4 cannons in the secondary hulls and we put in t1s and t2s as our budgets allows?

 

[Jalinth]

I did some math. This isn't as clean as it could be, I'm editing a copy and paste from my work sheet. BD numbers are BEFORE Cloak. So would be doubled on the final ship.

4x 7 gun Type 1 Batteries
1x Type 3c
3x Type 4b Batteries

This needs 13 Auxiliary Fusion Reactors, and 15 auxiliary computer cores for everything in combat, including shields.

		MI	Power	Runtime	SD	BD	PD
	TOTAL	105	311	153	113.9	139	42
	Type 1 Disruptor	0	0	0	0	0
4	7 Gun Type 1 Battery	42	168	84	56	56	42
1	Type 3c Disruptor	14	26	15	14.7	20
	Type 4b Disruptor	0	0	0	0	0
3	3 Gun Type 4b Battery	48	117	54	43.2	63
	Type 4c Disruptor	0	0	0	0	0
	2 Gun Battery	0	0	0	0	0

4x 5 gun Type 1 Batteries to save on costs but still get the max savings.
1x Type 3c
3x Type 4b Batteries

This needs 10 Auxiliary Fusion Reactors, and 9 auxiliary computer cores for everything in combat, including shields.

		MI	Power	Runtime	SD	BD	PD
		92	263	129	97.9	123	30
	Type 1 Disruptor	0	0	0	0	0
4	5 Gun Type 1 Battery	30	120	60	40	40	30
1	Type 3c Disruptor	14	26	15	14.7	20
	Type 4b Disruptor	0	0	0	0	0
3	3 Gun Type 4b Battery	48	117	54	43.2	63
	Type 4c Disruptor	0	0	0	0	0
	2 Gun Battery	0	0	0	0	0