Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)

I kinda want a single tiny secondary hull, halfway-ish up the nose, to hold the bridge and/or an observation dome for the crew lounge.
This sort of thing, along with blisters and whatnot, is below abstraction. You might note the Furious Wind rebuild; the original had a fully recessed bridge, but the rebuild has a protruding one with big, panoramic windows.
 
[X] Do not add secondary hulls [No Cost | Total Mass: 100]

This ship is intended to be small and cheap. As best as myself and the others who have been digging into the numbers can tell this should provide enough room to do what we need it to.
 
This sort of thing, along with blisters and whatnot, is below abstraction. You might note the Furious Wind rebuild; the original had a fully recessed bridge, but the rebuild has a protruding one with big, panoramic windows.
Yeah, and they look great.

...

"Below abstraction" means "susceptible to bribery", right?


Short Omake: The Window Lobbyist

"Hi, I'm here for the 10:20 presentation?"

"Oh, you're early! Come right in, I see you have your own computer? Here's the cable for the big screen. You want anything to drink, maybe a donut?"

"I'm good, thanks. I'd love to get started, if you don't mind - is this everyone?"

"No, we're waiting on one mo- and here they are. Go ahead, please."

"Alright. Thank you all for having me; I am here to sell you on something which is so mundane, you might have missed the value they bring to your construction. Namely, windows.

"Properly employed, windows serve as a fantastic cost-saving measure. I'm not merely talking about the productivity and health benefits of natural light, but also as a dynamic temperature control mechanism. Be it letting in sunlight to chase off the chill of night, or closing the blinds to keep out the searing heat, proper use of your windows can enable thermal regulation at a drastically lower energy-cost than traditional heating or cooling methods.

"It works where it's cold, too! Close your blinds to retain heat, or open them to let it radiate away.

"To step away from the purely practical, I'd next like to address your aesthetic sensibilities. While a good window does -"

"Excuse me, but aesthetics are a tertiary concern at best. Instead, could you address the fact that any window you build, is a giant structural weakness? How do you justify such a vulnerability?"

"Ok, um, that's a bit off the script, but it's still an excellent question! I would have to answer that, well, unfortunately there's no really any such thing as perfect security. If you have someone who is already willing to go to such lengths as to smash through your window, you're already in trouble. If they're willing to go that far, it's not much more effort to smash through a door, or even a wall.

"So I guess my answer is, when facing that sort of thing, that you have bigger problems than you could solve by removing the window. You might as well have windows, and gain the benefits when you're not being attacked which I should hopefully be much more common.

"Ha ha, yeah? No? I should get back to my presentation.

"So I guess I can skip these next few slides. Which brings us to... ah, here we are.

"Next, is the simple fact that a window connects you to the broader world. Not just for the ability to look outside, which does have valuable mental and health benefits, but also because of what it can let in. Open a window to experience anything from the sound of the rain, to a fresh spring -"

"Hang on. Open a window? Sir, you are aware that we're building spaceships, right?"

"What."

"This is the Starship Design Bureau! An openable window would be an unacceptable safety hazard; an abdication of our responsibility to the crews whom..."

"This, this isn't the Sensible Domiciles Board?"

"No. We do starships. In space."

"I. Excuse me, I have to go."

*Sounds of hurried packing. A door opens, then closes.*

...

"You know, it probably would be useful to be able to put a Mk. I eyeball on things, in case the sensors ever go down."
 
Yeah, and they look great.

...

"Below abstraction" means "susceptible to bribery", right?


Fortunately on the "window is a weakness" front, the actual physical durability of a material is pretty secondary to its ability to accommodate structural integrity fields in the Subspace Age; and there's easy access to various one-way glass type metallic metamaterials (Transparent Aluminum etc) and things like sapphire glass where you tend to break the frame before you break the pane. And of course with most ST weapons, physical durability mostly only matters for environmental stressors, because if it gets shot there's not an apreciable difference between the hull and the window anyway. Ships have always had at least *some* windows regardless, for the very sensible reason that navigation and sensor systems can break, and having the ability to fly the ship without them even if it means using the Emergency Sextant to calculate position is very much a consideration.
Plus, there's no reason to discard the ability of a squishy organic brain's ability to spot patterns that an algorithm might miss or discard as noise; especially in the context of Cloak warfare where there's the constant battle between sensor algorithms and techniques for bamboozling them to consider.
 
Fortunately on the "window is a weakness" front, the actual physical durability of a material is pretty secondary to its ability to accommodate structural integrity fields in the Subspace Age; and there's easy access to various one-way glass type metallic metamaterials (Transparent Aluminum etc) and things like sapphire glass where you tend to break the frame before you break the pane. And of course with most ST weapons, physical durability mostly only matters for environmental stressors, because if it gets shot there's not an apreciable difference between the hull and the window anyway. Ships have always had at least *some* windows regardless, for the very sensible reason that navigation and sensor systems can break, and having the ability to fly the ship without them even if it means using the Emergency Sextant to calculate position is very much a consideration.
Plus, there's no reason to discard the ability of a squishy organic brain's ability to spot patterns that an algorithm might miss or discard as noise; especially in the context of Cloak warfare where there's the constant battle between sensor algorithms and techniques for bamboozling them to consider.

Question - this might be semantics, but in addition to the points you've made could the use of some kind of mirrored, fully internalised periscope-type window system working purely off of the mechanics of light reflection make direct visual observation safer; as a "periscope" design would allow the viewport to have multiple transparent surfaces ('mirrors') between space and an observer, as well as making the path between breaching the viewport and the ship's interior more indirect (at least for projectiles which aren't also deflectable)? Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well.
 
[X] Add two Tiny secondary hulls [+4.05 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 116]
[X] Add one Small secondary hull [+4.75 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 120]

I just want a bit more room. Plus, on the paired Tinies, mounting engines on out board structures is a really cheat way to boost maneuverability.
 
Last edited:
I just want a bit more room. Plus, on the paired Tinies, mounting engines on out board structures is a really cheat way to boost maneuverability.
The tinies are literally too small to fit engines on them, and the effective amount of space they give is a whopping 1 combined. The small completely upends thing with a whole effective 3 spaces. The breakpoints cost it 1 space if this thing has a crew lounge- and it probably will.

There are reasons to use secondaries (and I actually think there are use cases here for the tinies or the small if we go for the SDB role)- but neither space or outboard engines are applicable in this context. The big thing is that secondary hulls are relatively cheap ways of hitting mass breakpoints for things like power/runtime generation and shields. Less useful on a survey ship, useful on something power intensive that wants good shields like a small warship.
 
Last edited:
[X] Add two Tiny secondary hulls [+4.05 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 116]
[X] Add one Small secondary hull [+4.75 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 120]
 
[X] Add two Tiny secondary hulls [+4.05 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 116]
[X] Add one Small secondary hull [+4.75 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 120]
 
Last edited:
[X] Do not add secondary hulls [No Cost | Total Mass: 100]

Little scouts need mostly stealth, speed and endurance.
 
Last edited:
[X] Add two Tiny secondary hulls [+4.05 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 116]
[X] Add one Small secondary hull [+4.75 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 120]

The vote was for a survey ship. The gunboat lost. Mounting a big gun on a survey ship is really a no go. I had 2x 3b planned for the gunboat. Maybe next turn there will be a need for a gunboat. Maybe not. WAY to early to determine that.
The galaxy has too many situations where being able to shoot is required. A survey ship without some teeth is just an expensive coffin.

We can squeak by with type 1s and cloak, but still... The 3b is really neat.
 
Last edited:
[X] Add two Tiny secondary hulls [+4.05 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 116]
[X] Add one Small secondary hull [+4.75 CI & +0.3 MI | Total Mass: 100 → 120]
 
According to the last threadmark, voting closed about 40 minutes ago folks.
The galaxy has too many situations where being able to shoot is required. A survey ship without some teeth is just an expensive coffin.

We can squeak by with type 1s and cloak, but still... The 3b is really neat.
If people wanted a survey ship well enough armed to be able to realistically defend itself they would have voted for my 190kt ship. It didn't win so I'm not going to try to end run and force the ship into being a crappy version of what I wanted as opposed to the best ship that matches with the votes that won.

I've spent HOURS on running the numbers. According to that and what the QM has stated about needing to focus if we are going to make a scout on 80kt like the thread voted for then trying to turn it into a half-assed warship is foolish. Ships this small do not have the room to multi-task at our tech level. I want to focus on what makes a ship this size good. Low cost. Adding extra hulls just brings us up to the 120kt base hull ship in cost but with a lot less space.

These are going to be within 10ly of home checking out the worlds in the local area. Ships this small are going to survive thanks to the cloak and running away. Standing and fighting is going to get them destroyed with no benefit.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top