Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)

As an aside, I've been considering the upcoming new ship build, and given
Given the likely size range, you could likely get a ship small enough to double build (2 ships 1 slip) which would definitely be fine, and even a more heavy option would be perfectly acceptable if it's covering a role the other ships don't (for example a twin core protium reactor with a fair bit of cargo capacity as a midrange patroller/fleet outrider, or a science vessel/scout ship, etc; plenty of options) or of course a light cargo carrier to supplement the Iron Roads as originally suggested. Furious Winds are on the larger end of light ships, after all.
I've been considering options.
The Iron Roads are slow and massively expensive, the Gold Roads are hilariously beyond obsolete, and the Furious Wind refit is shaping up to be a very flexible and capable light warship. In light of the latter, I'm quite comfortable saying we don't need another fighting ship this turn.

So there's three options that spring to mind for a cargo build:
  1. Something small enough to double-build (two ships to a slip). Given that most of our non-weapon costs are pretty linear, there's surprisingly negligible inefficiencies of scale in sizing down pure cargo ships, and the flexibility of deployment from having the same capacity split across more hulls is a notable advantage- as is the far lower per-ship cost opening up modern interstellar trade to significantly more carriers. I'm thinking ovoid for cruise speed and volume-per-ton is a no-brainer, size to the limits of "two per slip". Single or paired Type 1s tip and tail, Large Transporter for cargo throughput, possibly a single-bay Shuttlebay, and no other fancy stuff at all in the main hull.

    • I would like- given we're designing this largely for private industry- to design two or three different small inline secondary hulls that it could be ordered with any (or perhaps even none) of as options from the yard- one with another protium reactor for dual-core speed without tritium's heavy costs and endurance penalties to make a speedy packet boat, one with one or more "crew lounges" and a small medbay to add luxury-liner passenger capability, and one with just a couple more cargo bays for max capacity.

    • Note that I'm explicitly not attempting to make modular, swappable ship systems; these variants would be initial-construction options only; attempting to refit one variant into another would be no easier or cheaper than a similar refit in the absence of the other variants' existence.

  2. A medium-sized (one build per slip, but not insanely enormous) dedicated freighter, probably dual-core protium, with similarly spartan equipment (Large Transporter, minimal point defense, maybe small shuttle bay), laser-focused on maximizing efficient logistical throughput. Ovoid again, this time without the secondary hull as they're underwhelming-to-terrible volume-per-cost efficiency.

    (I do think dual-core is worth enough cruise speed that the extra cargo-lightyears of throughput per calendar year will pay off within the decade, never mind the life of the ship.)

  3. A supermax bulk carrier that anybody can actually afford: Literally The Exact Post-Modest-Refit Iron Road hull, core systems (except go for the Warp 4 drive), and Type 1 mounts; just leave out the heavier disruptors that replaced the original particle lances and all the lavish secondary equipment. Should be a stupidly cheap, quick, and easy design that the shipyards are already mostly tooled up for and familiar with, and it'll have massive capacity in absolute and per-cost terms... but it'll still be, you know, a big-ass bulk carrier, and still leave the "smaller, more individually affordable" niche unfilled.
 
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Crazy idea, what if we make two ships, that can merge or combine together? alone they are decent ships, but combine they turn into a stronger more capable ship.

The idea is the two ships cover the other ships weaknesses or fill a niche, like one has cargo space and sensors while also being lightly armed, and has broadside capability, so can be a decent scouting ship that has some bite, while the other has a more powerful power generator and forward facing weapon systems as well as a cloak.

Im unsure what would be best shape for them, maybe hemicircular and ovular, they are generally the same size, or at least same weight class.

I like the idea of having multi-purpose hulls that can combine to make a more powerful larger craft for it.
 
I think that sounds like a stupidly complicated but probably very fun project once we're not at a massive deficit in tech advancement, fleet size, and strategic depth versus our known hostile neighbors.
 
It could also just be a single ship that can separate into two class of smaller ships. Like it starts out as a cruiser but can separate into a destroyer and frigate.
 
I think that sounds like a stupidly complicated but probably very fun project once we're not at a massive deficit in tech advancement, fleet size, and strategic depth versus our known hostile neighbors. :p
 
I think that's almost fundamentally impossible for us ngl. At least if both ships need to be warp capable.

Our warp drive means that any ship we build for FTL needs a complete drive ring around at least the majority of the hull, so any combined ship would need two full size rings.

We could, however, modernize the container ship. An independent drive and habitation section with a plug and play bulk cargo section or sections. Warp in, drop off the cargo section, grab another one, and be on your way while the locals worry about unloading. Vastly reducing turnaround time.

Every cargo ship we have needs to be unloaded while the ship just sits there after all.
 
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I think that's almost fundamentally impossible for us ngl. At least if both ships need to be warp capable.

Our warp drive means that any ship we build for FTL needs a complete drive ring around at least the majority of the hull, so any combined ship would need two full size rings.
Well the fact they can combine means only one needs to be warp capable.
 
I've been considering options.
The Iron Roads are slow and massively expensive, the Gold Roads are hilariously beyond obsolete, and the Furious Wind refit is shaping up to be a very flexible and capable light warship. In light of the latter, I'm quite comfortable saying we don't need another fighting ship this turn.

Considering a gold roads replacement will be very much wanted, the most likely ship design next turn will likely be that.

On the other hand, not sure how actually interesting design it will be because it pretty much is a merchant ship so, ok speed and (very) cheap would be the go-to goals for it to absolutely mass produce the fuck out of them.
-> labs-nope, more sensors-nope, expensive impulse engine-nope, cloak-nope, workshops-nope, extra-crew-stuff-(maybe)/nope
-> Weapons-minimal*, additional power gen/runtime-nope

More or less cheap and very fast to build, that are intended for mostly (mass) transport inside a system. As that seems to be the role of the gold road currently.

With the Iron road likely taking care of mass transport between systems.

*if you try to fight with them or the enemy target them already beyond fucked
 
Considering a gold roads replacement will be very much wanted, the most likely ship design next turn will likely be that.

On the other hand, not sure how actually interesting design it will be because it pretty much is a merchant ship so, ok speed and (very) cheap would be the go-to goals for it to absolutely mass produce the fuck out of them.
-> labs-nope, more sensors-nope, expensive impulse engine-nope, cloak-nope, workshops-nope, extra-crew-stuff-(maybe)/nope
-> Weapons-minimal*, additional power gen/runtime-nope

More or less cheap and very fast to build, that are intended for mostly (mass) transport inside a system. As that seems to be the role of the gold road currently.

With the Iron road likely taking care of mass transport between systems.

*if you try to fight with them or the enemy target them already beyond fucked
I would say maybe a very limited type 2 armament and a single aft torpedo. Just so they arent COMPLETELY helpless against pirates.
 
As an aside, I've been considering the upcoming new ship build, and given
[quote snipped]
I've been considering options.
Well, when we started this refit we chose
[] Plan Furious Wind is back - Replace the Gold Road
So we've been angled towards option 2 for a while.

We have 14 points for a new ship.
5pt buys 100kt, 30pt buys 250-300kt, thats +6-8kt per point above minimum

14=5+9=100+9*(6-8)=(154-172)
Guessing that a doube-building just means using half as many points? (There might be some overhead i don't know about)
7=5+2=100+2*(6-8)=(112-116)
A single-build would be a 154-172kt hull.
Double-build might be 112-116kt hulls.

I think we could build a decent small freighter on even a 100kt hull, so double-building looks feasible. That's half of your option 1, tho I suspect we can't do the variant secondary hulls.
 
That's half of your option 1, tho I suspect we can't do the variant secondary hulls.
tbh if the variant secondary hulls are an option at the larger size I might go for them even without double-building, but I don't honestly expect them to be for QM-workload reasons.
Just so they arent COMPLETELY helpless against pirates.
The Type 2 is only +20% burst over its MI cost-equivalent in Type 1s, at the cost of -18% sustained, -94% point defense, and 20% more Space.

Now admittedly the Type 2 does save 20% Power and 40% Runtime versus its MI cost in Type 1s, but a cargo ship with modern core systems and minimal auxiliary systems probably has a substantial surplus of both.

It's easy to start thinking of the Type 1 as a point-defense gun only, when in fact it's a cheap and very capable starship-scale weapon in its own right.
 
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I would say maybe a very limited type 2 armament and a single aft torpedo. Just so they arent COMPLETELY helpless against pirates.

Why do you think that ships that are pretty much locked into inner system transport with very rare trips to other system have to fear pirates with our current situation ?

If we have a pirate problem inside our home system, we have bigger problems than the (super) cheap merchant ships that should be pumped out by the thousands*, not being able to fight the off**.

*Looking at the ww2 merchant marine ships from the US here and the numbers that they build them in and how fast
**something they likely can't do anyway without pretty high levels of investment into weapons.
 
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Why do you think that ships that are pretty much locked into inner system transport with very rare trips to other system have to fear pirates with our current situation ?
I was operating under the assumption the new ship would be outfitted for interstellar voyages tbh. That would be part of the point of replacing the Gold Roads at all, getting a higher performance light cargo vessel.

I doubt the indefinite range of the Iron Road is possible on a budget vessel, but I'd still like to hit a couple years of range with a 2.6-2.7+ cruise speed to fill the niche of a faster light cargo vessel to work alongside the larger capacity Iron Roads.

Frankly, we'd have to TRY to be as limited as the Gold Roads blistering Warp 1.6.

Edit:
something they likely can't do anyway without pretty high levels of investment into weapons.
When talking pirates, you dont need to have enough guns to destroy anything dumb enough to engage. You just need enough weapons to make the pirate seriously consider if the damage to his vessel will be costlier than what he gains taking the ship or its cargo.
 
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So, I just finished reading through the quest. And I have a pondering I must put out there. How big of a ship would we have to build to mount a Doombeam in a turret?

Also, I just wanted to say, the Halberd, the halberd is just beautiful, all the ship designs so far have been really cool. Hats off to Mechanis for that. Though I think its main gun may give other factions ideas if they figure out what we did, depending on how effective it turns out to be.
 
So, I just finished reading through the quest. And I have a pondering I must put out there. How big of a ship would we have to build to mount a Doombeam in a turret?

Also, I just wanted to say, the Halberd, the halberd is just beautiful, all the ship designs so far have been really cool. Hats off to Mechanis for that. Though I think its main gun may give other factions ideas if they figure out what we did, depending on how effective it turns out to be.
The doombeam was built as a fixed weapon so it can't go in a turret.
 
The doombeam was built as a fixed weapon so it can't go in a turret.
I mean, you're half right? What is a Turret but a fixed weapon mounted inside a secondary hull that can rotate... But fair. I was thinking of the dumb idea of making a ship so stupid huge it could mount doombeams in turret batteries.
 
At a certain point it's easier to pivot the ship than it is to pivot a big enough turret on the ship. You can think of it as a turret that's outgrown its need for a ship to sit on, if you like.

(I mean that's kinda what the Halberd is, anyway, with the extra outboard engines explicitly for spinning around to bring the doombeam to bear ASAP.)

Edit: Alternatively:
  1. Consider how big a ship you'd need to turret-mount a doombeam.
  2. Then consider how much doomier a doombeam you could mount in that size ship if you quit faffing about with turrets and just scaled up the fixed doombeam to match.
 
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That's fair. I knew it was impractical, it was mostly intended as a thought experiment, though we do seem to be tending towards big ships.
 
That's fair. I knew it was impractical, it was mostly intended as a thought experiment, though we do seem to be tending towards big ships.
I want to match up against the Voth who has really big ships (in star trek online and voyager we seen a really big one) and the borg.

Warrior cultures would respect us for having the bigger gun
Hunter warrior cultures would treat it as hunting big game once they figure out how to take one down.
Dictators will fear and hate us for having a bigger gun then them.
Diplomat cultures would show respect to us for being so large, and likely try and get us to tell them how we did it/

Also the fact the ships can cloak would be an absolute terror to every single one of them.

Purple or highly tanned vulcans.
I like the idea of them being similar to dark elves.
 
I was operating under the assumption the new ship would be outfitted for interstellar voyages tbh. That would be part of the point of replacing the Gold Roads at all, getting a higher performance light cargo vessel.

I doubt the indefinite range of the Iron Road is possible on a budget vessel, but I'd still like to hit a couple years of range with a 2.6-2.7+ cruise speed to fill the niche of a faster light cargo vessel to work alongside the larger capacity Iron Roads.

Frankly, we'd have to TRY to be as limited as the Gold Roads blistering Warp 1.6.

Edit:

When talking pirates, you dont need to have enough guns to destroy anything dumb enough to engage. You just need enough weapons to make the pirate seriously consider if the damage to his vessel will be costlier than what he gains taking the ship or its cargo.

The problem isn't range it is speed.
Jalinth was nice and made a chart for that:
Warp factor table for all Stellar Union Ships.
Warp FactorTimes CMonths to travel 5 LY10 LY20 LYMinutes to cross 60 AU
0.251.1950.5100.9201.8420.5
0.331.2647.795.5190.9397.8
0.451.3743.987.8175.7366.0
0.51.4142.484.9169.7353.6
0.81.7434.568.9137.8287.2
1.42.6422.745.590.9189.5
1.63.0319.839.679.2164.9
1.83.4817.234.568.9143.6
2.45.2811.422.745.594.7
2.55.6610.621.242.488.4
2.86.968.617.234.571.8
3.3 (Current fastest cruise speed)9.856.112.224.450.8
3.813.934.38.617.235.9
4.6 (Current fastest sprint speed)24.252.54.99.920.6
5 (For reference, no SU ships have reached this)32.001.93.87.515.6

I've taken the cruise and sprint warp factor for every ship we have an put it into my spreadsheet.

When the too and from trip at the current warp speed takes a year or more for anything but the nearest star (using our current fastest cruise speed), I don't think regular trips out of system are going to be happening much apart from rare supply runs to outposts and switch for the crews there.

Pretty sure you are looking at 4+warp cruise speed before they out of system cargo ships become more viable.
Personally, think ~warp5 cruise speed for trade between nearby start systems, is needed before that actually picks up.

So if we know for sure we are building the golden road replacement next turn warp 5+deflector+secondary deflector might be worth picking up in the R&D turn. That would also be a case where them using "simple" fusion would be pretty viable for transport to the closest systems I think, until we break warp 7-8 or so due to range, maintenance and price to build the ship.




For defense against pirates a few weapons aren't going to scare them, not with the existence of shields.
They rise the threshold quite a lot before it stops being worth it.
And you wouldn't slap more weapons on the merchant ships in that case you have pirate activity in the area you start to make convos and send some warships with them to protect them.
 
Random note. I bet we could use the hyperspace tap to make something like the Yamato Cannon, very directly actually. Given the thing releases enough energy to instantly vaporize the ship it'll be both tricky to do and ludicrously powerful. Just open one side of the shielding and let the energy out, the entire rest of the "gun" would then be basically a lensing system, just designed to focus the energy into a coherent beam for greater range and damage, and shield the ship from the ludicrous amounts of power that are being thrown around. Main weakness is that if it gets damaged or something goes wrong, well, you won't even have time to feel pain. Also you've now opened a direct channel from the heart of your ship to the exterior, when the heart of your ship is an infinite energy glitch spewing enough power to instantly vaporize you. All of this operating on the assumption that opening and closing the relevant portals is difficult and requires specialized equipment, depending on how things work out it might be viable to instead open a portal that then destabilizes and collapses after a very short time. If we can do that, then just use that for the weapon, rather than directly feeding from the core reactor.
 
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