Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)

The thing with the fixed mounts is that we don't know exactly how much of an impact the limited fire arcs has. Actually we don't know exactly what any individual + or - does. It might not be the same between weapons, for example.

I've been thinking about doing a deep dive on the 4 weapon types to see if I can figure out anything else. The T4c does 75% of the BD of the T3c, but the T4c only had + Power, + Accuracy, +Burst Damage at the end, while the DOOMBEAM had (depending on how the math worked) between 10 and 19 + power, ++ Accuracy, and a bonus to fire rate.

In short the stats of the weapons do not seem to match very well with the numbers we were using to make decisions. Are their hidden stats that we don't see? Are things like BD just a shorthand while the actual combats are rolled out with more detailed stats? No idea.

Trying to make all those decisions without understanding what they did was stressful. I was counting on seeing the end products and getting a better understanding. Instead I was just left more confused. I recently noticed that I have the most posts in this thread of anyone, beating Mechanis by 8 or 9 at the moment. So when I say I'm frustrated, it's coming from unbridled enthusiasm for the game.

TL;DR: Tiny bespoke beams are stupidly good even before you consider that being tiny lets you max out Battery discounts at sane hull sizes.
Would not help our Runtime issues much though lmao.

Edit: Here's a copy of the spreadsheet I was working from.
Edit - Thank you for saving me the effort of doing all of that. It's been on my to-do list, but I was putting it off.
 
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I'll just clarify right here that Burst and Sustained damage are high-level abstractions that take into account fire rate, fire arc, size, tracking speed, tracking accuracy, weapon type, particle density if applicable, and some manual fiddling too, so trying to work out exactly what things do based on that alone is deliberately difficult to prevent meta-chasing and overtuned min-maxing chasing the "best" numbers for the simulation system I'm using, rather than discovering things that are good or not organically like well, real world design conditions.

I feel like being encouraged to make shittons of tiny weapons is a bug in the system, cause that's the opposite of how shit works IRL.
Power and Runtime costs tend to eat that sort of thing alive. Smaller numbers of larger weapons are more efficient there; for an easy comparison a Type 4c battery does only about half again the damage of the single Type 3c, but requires nearly double the Power. And those are just comparable sizes, going for equivalent value in smaller weapons is even worse.

Edit: also "immaterial"/story drawbacks, like complicating the power grid and suchlike.
 
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we don't know exactly how much of an impact the limited fire arcs has.

I feel like being encouraged to make shittons of tiny weapons is a bug in the system,
Well, QM did mention offhand that he'd love to do Age of Sail in Space...and these tiny little hellbeams would suit a 44-gun broadside or what have you.
In short the stats of the weapons do not seem to match very well with the numbers we were using to make decisions.[...]I was counting on seeing the end products and getting a better understanding. Instead I was just left more confused.
Big same. I mean a certain amount of opacity between votes and outcomes is probably necessary in quests so they they don't just get reduced to "wait for the spreadsheeters to calculate the optimal plan and then everybody vote for it", but...that tends to work better when the voters are given descriptors instead of numbers to discourage spreadsheeting, not mismatched numbers to encourage spreadsheeting but make it misleading or just plain confusing.
Edit - Thank you for saving me the effort of doing all of that. It's been on my to-do list, but I was putting it off.
Heh, mine too; I finally had time this morning while procrastinating from schoolwork. You're quite welcome.
 
Something to experment with in the future is a small beam emitter that trades sustained and burst damage for maximum point defense and minium runtime/power cost.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Mechanis on May 9, 2024 at 5:02 PM, finished with 40 posts and 18 votes.


Right. Now it's time for....
 
Turn 3: Project Guardian, Power and Computers, 1/2

It is determined that the Guardian will carry only two torpedo launchers, both within the ventral substructure. Next is the matter of power and computer systems and here it becomes obvious that you will need to experiment somewhat—fortunately, there are more than a few projects available to support these new weapons and their high demands.

The first proposal for power is quite radical, but seemingly simple: mount a second warp core. This could be combined with any other option, and would obviously double all costs and generation of the ship's primary reactor. The increase in high load power generation to this level should also have a noticeable effect on the ship's warp performance as well, though to what degree is not yet known.

Second is increasing the size of the reactor-while more expensive than the minimum size on account of design efficiency issues, this is still slightly more space efficient than an equivalent increase in smaller reactors. Estimates suggest that up to 66% increase is practical without potentially facing issues, though if you intend to also fit a second core it would be likely be wise to avoid exceeding 40% as a diplomatic concession to Finance. Alternatively, a prototype ultra-high-pressure fusion bottle design could potentially increase power generation by 20 to 50%, but would require high-precision military grade industry to produce, which has previously prevented adoption.

Lastly, you could change from your current Protium design to a Deturium or Tritium reactor, which have higher output, but this would require specialized equipment to refine protium be added to the ship, as otherwise it would require impractically large storage tanks for the much more rare isotopes—and the constraints of size would restrict this to high performance systems that require highly precise, military grade industry to produce.

The situation with computational systems is if anything even more dire, though amusingly one of the proposals is of similar mind to the power team, namely, "mount a second core". The difference between power generation and computer systems means that this won't be a direct doubling, but there are ideas being thrown around about distributed computing that may result in a system that is more than the sum of its parts… or possibly not worth the expense, if the more pessimistic projections are right. At worst, however, this will simply fail to deliver a significant improvement worth the extra cost. The second option at this point is to crash develop a prototype secondary computer core—this would be expensive, and likely result in a less effective design (at least initially) than a normal development program, but would significantly impact the following phases of design.

Main Power

[ ] Mount a second Warp Core
Doubles cost and size taken up by Warp Core, as there's a whole second reactor assembly. Also doubles power output. May be taken with other options.

[ ] Increase Warp Core Size
Power Generation: 7.5→ 8.5/9.5/10.5/11.5/12.5
Cost: 15 CI → 17/21/27/35/45 CI
Size: 3×4 →3×5/3×6/3×7/3×8/3×9
If taking second warp core, you are advised to not exceed 10.5 power generation.

[ ] Prototype High Pressure Stellarator
Cost: 15 CI → 18 CI & 6-12 MI
Power generation multiplied by 1.2-1.5, increments of .1
Size: 3×4-3×6


[ ] Deuterium Reactor
Power generation multiplied by 1.75. Requires a 3×2 Deuterium Refinery, which requires 12 MI to construct. Increase to 3×3 and 16 MI for twin reactor.
[ ] Tritium Reactor
Power generation multiplied by 2.5. Requires a 3×3 Tritium Refinery, which costs 20 MI. Increase to 3×4 & 24 MI for twin reactor.

You may combine a twin warp core with any option. Larger reactors are mutually exclusive with the Prototype High Pressure Stellarator, and Deuterium reactors mutually exclusive with Tritium Reactors, but may otherwise be combined (so yes you can, for example, mount a twin high pressure tritium reactor if you really want to.) All these systems are optional, but it is recommended to take at least one, given the power demand.


Computing

[ ] Prototype Dual Core Duotronics
Double the cost, size and Runtime generation of the main computer core. Requires 10-40% (increments of 5%) of main core Runtime in overhead.
Potential additional effects:
  • Multiply core Runtime by 1.05-1.2 (increments of 0.05)
  • Add 5-10 Runtime for each additional computing system (Increments of 1)
  • Multiply Runtime of secondary systems by 1.1-1.5, rounded up (increments of 0.1)
  • Multiply total Runtime by 1+(0.025-0.05 per additional computer system), (Increments of 0.025)
  • Add +1-3 Runtime to each computer system for each extra computer system added, exclusive/inclusive to mass. (Increments of 0.5)

[ ] Prototype Secondary Duotronic Computer Core
Rush production of Secondary Computer Core.
Stats:
Size: 1×2-2×2, +1×2 (Flat) per 100-150 KT
Cost: 1.5-3 CI per 80 Kilotons
Runtime: 2.5-6 per 50 Kilotons
Development cost of Secondary Core reduced to 20-13
Prototype becomes available next phase)

You may select either or neither option for computing enhancement.


Please Vote By Plan

One Hour Moratorium

 
Well this is going to require some math. Time to get out the spreadsheet.

Please hold. :)

[Edit - First observation - A second warp core costs less, is smaller and produces basically the same power as 8 Aux fusion reactors]
[Edit 2 - Still running power numbers, getting things input into the spreadsheet. Right now I'm leaning towards 2 Tritium reactors with +1 size. Loads of power, loads of space savings. Saves a HUGE amount of CI at the expense of MI. Which... well it's a drop in the bucket compared to the weapons suite.]
 
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Oh and:

I found some fonts today, and am working on syntax and vocabulary for Modern Talash (being the common tongue for the Union). So yeah, that's what Talash script looks like.
 
I'm still putting in options and running numbers. Right now I'm STRONGLY leaning towards a pair of slightly expanded Tritium warp cores. It saves us 90+ spaces, 43 CI at the cost of 24 MI. Which isn't nothing, but the ship is currently running about 325 without it. The other options so far seem less enticing.

TBH if I had any indications that we'd have this as a bloody option I wouldn't have made the arguments I did earlier. But nobody tells the shipwrights anything, so we'll be fine. The good news is that even if we don't do ANYTHING for the computers we are going to be doing much better on the space side of things.

[Edit - On perfect rolls the Stellarator is a good, solid option. On mid rolls it's meh. On worst rolls? 50% larger, more expensive, and only 20% more power. I'm thinking we give that a pass. No sense in taking chances here.]
 
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Alright. Folks can check out my shared google doc if they want to check my numbers. Make a copy for yourself and go to town.
[Edit - Doc is out of date and has been taken down]
Both, either, neither as you please~
[Edit - I checked, and we can take both computer options]

This plan costs 24 MI over the base ~325 MI we have spent so far. It saves ~50 CI, going from ~227 to ~176. Free space goes from 7 to 126. That's after my wishlist of non-combat parts.

I am basing these numbers off of the worst possible rolls for everything. Meaning we don't even end up using the Prototype SCC because it's flat out worse then using Aux cores. A mildly good roll makes competitive, and a good roll makes it a killer deal. If we end up getting some good rolls for the dual core computer tech that will save even more resources.

This plan gives us enough power and runtime to use all the weapons save the two aft hex packs at the same time. If we roll well on the runtime we shouldn't have a problem with using all the weapons at once, just adding a single aux fusion reactor to round out the power for all guns blazing.

[X] Plan: Spreadsheet Wizard
-[X] Mount a second Warp Core
-[X] Increase Warp Core Size (1 step, 8.5 power)
-[X] Tritium Reactor
-[X] Prototype Dual Core Duotronics
-[X] Prototype Secondary Duotronic Computer Core

It's going to be expensive as hell, but less expensive then not taking these options. It could also save us some points on getting SCCs next R&D turn.

If someone really objects to an 8% increase in MI spending for the warp core... I really don't know what to tell you. We are going to be back to filling the hull with aux reactors. It's not pretty, and also quite expensive. I really think we need to bite the bullet and go for the Tritium reactor.

As for the prototype reactor I've already given my thoughts -
[Edit - On perfect rolls the Stellarator is a good, solid option. On mid rolls it's meh. On worst rolls? 50% larger, more expensive, and only 20% more power. I'm thinking we give that a pass. No sense in taking chances here.]
 
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I want to use the high pressure Prototype because if it rolls good it's not just for this ship but for all future Fusion ships.
I also have hope that twin high pressure course will have synergistic effects on warp speed
 
I want to use the high pressure Prototype because if it rolls good it's not just for this ship but for all future Fusion ships.
I also have hope that twin high pressure course will have synergistic effects on warp speed
Compare to the baseline specs for the Warp 5 reactor, the prototype is very meh. We aren't going to be keeping this one around for long, Warp 5 cores are planned for next turn by myself at least. Warp 5 cores give 7.5x the power of a Warp 4, albeit it does take up some more room. The prototype option also doesn't talk about potential long term benefits, like the secondary core does, so it might not actually do what you want.

A bad roll makes it just worse then using a normal reactor. Furthermore it will add a chunk to our otherwise sky high MI budget for less benefit then the Tritium. We'd need both in order to dispense with the Aux fusion reactors.

Trust me, I looked HARD at the Stellarator. But it feels like a bridge too far.
 
Good point. Looks like I misread that.

Just to confirm @Mechanis we can take one or zero of the computer options, not both?
Both, either, neither as you please~

for the stellarator it would be good to wait for the tech to mature a bit more before grabbing it for a ship.
That's one of those techs that's been in Development Hell for ages and is mature as it gets until you actually put it in something and find out how far from "in theory" it actually is.
 
Oh and:

I found some fonts today, and am working on syntax and vocabulary for Modern Talash (being the common tongue for the Union). So yeah, that's what Talash script looks like.
While I can certainly appreciate the effort, that script looks like absolute HELL to try using freehand. Works not great on a screen, but I can only imagine how badly poor handwriting would maul it.

A good written language wants its characters to be distinct, easy to tell apart at a glance.
 
While I can certainly appreciate the effort, that script looks like absolute HELL to try using freehand. Works not great on a screen, but I can only imagine how badly poor handwriting would maul it.

A good written language wants its characters to be distinct, easy to tell apart at a glance.
I mean
*Looks at Arabic script, cursive, and basically everything even vaugely related to Tenguar*
That's never really stopped anybody in real life. There's loads of real languages that become nearly illegible if you have less-that-perfect handwriting. (That being said, a handwritten form likely exaggerates certain letter-forms a lot of the time, and you can probably do stuff like picking out where someone was living when they learned to write and if they're left or right handed and things like that based on which letters get emphasized, and such.)

Edit: in fact, I explicitly picked this because it looks vaugely similar to written Arabic text I have seen, while also being really obviously not, so someone could look at samples and go "look, parallel evolution! How interesting!"

Edit 2: also, growing up with that kind of script probably means you get really good at drawing straight lines and clean angles, too. And then there's probably less-formal/not "printed" versions that are a lot more curved/sineosoral, with letter-lines and dots more pronounced as well. I might actually make such a font, at some point, by sitting down with a paper and pen and seeing what feels natural whilst writing. The same way I sanity check pronunciation by actually saying things out loud and working to what feels right for how I want the cadence and flow of the language to work in practice, without awkward tripping hazards in the middle of a word.
 
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I mean I kinda want to experiment with a duel Deuterium/Tritium Reactor with a Stellarator see where that takes us.
 
I mean I kinda want to experiment with a duel Deuterium/Tritium Reactor with a Stellarator see where that takes us.
The problem is that the Stellarator is the one that is going to have the worst fail state. My calculations for the computer tech assumes both as the worst possible rolls and it's still going to be quite good. A badly rolled Stellarator is going to be really bad.

Furthermore all the options are either implied or explicitly expensive. My plan is probably pushing things with 2 prototypes. I'm worried it might be too much. 3? That's just asking for trouble since we're going to need the double warp cores. Even with the Trit and the best rolls a single Stellarator isn't enough to run the weapons suite.
 
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