Remove ads

Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

Reader mode
The problem is that Akane is inheriting an untenable scenario however she tries to cut it.

The most feasible approach if the Fire Nation "wins" is probably to leave most of the existing administrative structures in place, only intervening in the event of rebellion. Most people aren't going to care if their new overlord mostly leaves them alone and sets lower taxes, and standard of living stays about the same. Unfortunately it doesn't give an easy propaganda victory, and it also fails entirely if the occupied don't decide to lay down arms because of nationalist sentiment or some other reason.

Ozai's policy, from what I can gather, is probably going to be to force the "savages" to improve the Earth Kingdom through forced labour policies, work camps, etc, thus avoiding the Fire Nation footing the actual bill, then take the credit because look, aren't they so much better off where they are now thanks to the Fire Nation's guidance?

Incidentally very much like his parenting style, which probably isn't that surprising and gives us some insight into his behavior--he probably genuinely believes Akane should be grateful for him forcing her to toughen up. Which is twisted as hell, but well, Ozai's going to Ozai.
 
Last edited:
Last I looked, we also had "backwater" villages that enjoy a standard not equal to our capital. OBVIOUSLY we can't build a new city for every village, that's why we said the same standard as ours.

Roads, unified code of law, standard taxes, roads, mail service, education, architecture, all these are already enough to SIGNIFICANTLY improve the lives of the entire Earth nation. Also, he is right, it will take an unthinkable amount of resources to even just maintain the new territories and expand in ways other than simply lines on a map. I was under the impression that we were to use the vast natural resources that the earth nation has squatted on for so long. Those factories need workers, those workers have families, those families need towns to live in. The most ambitious projects that will stand before us is creating industry towns. These towns will be generating materials we need for expansion and the wages from the workers will introduce the earth nation farmers and peasants to the fire ation middle-class standard of living.

All must happen in steps. This will be the work of generations, we are planting trees who's fruit we will not taste. And we are doing that because if we simply use the earthkindgom as slave labour then we will
1. Constantly have rebellion due to them not seeing any benefit to serving us.
2. Merchants will offload all production into the earthkindgom colonies. An obviously bad idea
3. Severely limit the benefit of the new territory. Slaves don't reproduce and they don't pay taxes.

Unless father intends to systemically sterilize and kill all Earth benders and then repopulate the land with fire nation citizens, a plan far more ambitious than ours, it is for the best to make all we have conquered into part of the fire nation instead of a great colony territory.
 
As always, excellent chapter... though I do wish it were longer!

kosm said:
If they could be taken alive... well. It's unlikely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, the start of a brainwashed cadre of supersoldiers! Yes?

kosm said:
but that we elevate them so quickly and so dramatically that it allows us to undercut any desire for rebellion the natives might hold after one hundred years of war!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Good thing that Akane is guided by people familiar with the technology and strategies to do exactly that.

kosm said:
And that we produce the manpower and the resources to do this while also maintaining the military occupation of the entire continent and refraining from making use of the natives for unpaid labor, and that we keep our own citizens content while making this extravagant investment in the well-being of the savages!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The real missing ingredient here, and everywhere, is capable, reliable manpower. If Akane put a bit of her soul into flame, could we get a fire demon?
 
ChaosRuneSmith said:
Roads, unified code of law, standard taxes, roads, mail service, education, architecture, all these are already enough to SIGNIFICANTLY improve the lives of the entire Earth nation
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Leaving aside that even just doing this would take immense time and resources between rebel interference and the sheer size of the Earth Kingdom, the improvements you listed aren't actually that great.

Roads? Why would the Earth Kingdom need roads? They have earthbenders, they don't need roads when they can just rip a chunk of stone out of the ground and ride on top of it.

Unified code of law? What's to say the Earth Kingdom didn't already have one? Even if they didn't, the new laws aren't going to be calibrated to the facts on the ground, have to be actually enforced, and people tend to be unhappy when changes in the law hurt them, regardless of how fair they are.

Standard taxes and coinage? Great, now the tax collector is demanding taxes paid in the official Fire Nation coinage (which you don't have any of, incindentally), and won't accept taxes paid in kind.

Education? The Earth Kingdom already has its own education system and a very high level of literacy according to this quest's canon. Nevermind that the schools are going to be viewed with suspicion because they're "teaching Fire Nation propaganda and trampling over traditional values and culture".

Like, you are basically buying into the in-universe propaganda about "how backwards the EK savages are and how they'll all be grateful once the mighty Fire Nation enlightens them" here.
 
Last edited:
Look, people, some of you are looking at this like it's a debate between a father and his daughter about how to best incorporate new territory in your kingdom.

It is not.
It is Ozai's continuation of effort to mold and shape Akane into Mini-Him. He will not be convinced by her arguments because he genuinely believes that as a Fire Lord he's always right. Look at Zuko's interlude and his lessons therein.

I honestly think there's no winning against Ozai possible at the moment, there's only surviving him and waiting for opportunities and creating them. As a plus, if we don't try to openly defy him, there's little actual chance he'll try to execute us, for one reason or another, so have a bit of a leeway as it is.

That aside
No one pointed this out
kosm said:
"You're never going to stop being beautiful, Akane," she whispers.

Your cheeks heat. You swallow. This is too much. It's too public.

"You're too kind to me," you say. "Thank you."

She squeezes your hand again before leaning away.

"I'm just saying the truth," she says. "You're beautiful, brilliant, talented, dedicated..."

"You sound like Ty Lee with Azula," you murmur, smiling.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

*Remembers every Azulee slash fic ever*
*Giggles madly GEOMETRICALLY*
 
Eh. Darkness induced apathy is a thing that is starting to happen here. If it keeps this tone for too long i will bail.
 
Arcus said:
Leaving aside that even just doing this would take immense time and resources between rebel interference and the sheer size of the Earth Kingdom, the improvements you listed aren't actually that great.

Roads? Why would the Earth Kingdom need roads? They have earthbenders, they don't need roads when they can just rip a chunk of stone out of the ground and ride on top of it.

Unified code of law? What's to say the Earth Kingdom didn't already have one? Even if they didn't, the new laws aren't going to be calibrated to the facts on the ground, have to be actually enforced, and people tend to be unhappy when changes in the law hurt them, regardless of how fair they are.

Standard taxes and coinage? Great, now the tax collector is demanding taxes paid in the official Fire Nation coinage (which you don't have any of, incindentally), and won't accept taxes paid in kind.

Education? The Earth Kingdom already has its own education system and a very high level of literacy according to this quest's canon. Nevermind that the schools are going to be viewed with suspicion because they're "teaching Fire Nation propaganda and trampling over traditional values and culture".

Like, you are basically buying into the in-universe propaganda about "how backwards the EK savages are and how they'll all be grateful once the mighty Fire Nation enlightens them" here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok, just first let's remember what perspective we are talking for here. We are all playing the devil's advocate by default. Fucking hell man, you didn't think I was serious did you?

Now to dismantle your arguments.

1. It is much harder for rebels to gain sympathy when they are interfering with and destroying public services. Destroying roads isn't popular.

2. Not everyone is a bender. Not everyone can "just ride on a rock (this isn't a rock, it's a Boulder!)" Especially not everyone can just do it without ruining the terrain they drive over. There is also cargo to consider. carts, wagons, coaches all these need smooth roads to work properly and efficiency.

3. Even if we ignore that the fire nation assumes that they don't have a single code of law and that they might well not have it, they will be part of the fire nation. One very, VERY important part is to make them feel like they have the same rights as any other fire nation citizens.

4. Taxes are much the same as the rights, equal to all citizens. Coinage will of course take time but still a problem that isn't too difficult to solve. I assume there is a minting process in our nation, we simply allow them to melt the earth coins down and to mint as many fire coins as the earth coins they melted were worth. There will be a slight lurch in how much both coins are valued but with royal guarantee that the earth coins still hold value should stabilize it. Most earth coins will be taken out of circulation while the rest will lose their value when we no longer accept them. They will then only be worth anything as a collection item

5. Same as code of law, the assumption is that the earth kingdom has no unified standard for education. A universal standard for competence makes employnent much easier.
 
It's outright stated in the sequel that the interconnected Rail lines that kuvira had connstructed increased the property of the Earth Kingdom populace.
 
ChaosRuneSmith said:
1. It is much harder for rebels to gain sympathy when they are interfering with and destroying public services. Destroying roads isn't popular.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The problem is when the people you send to build the roads get killed before they've actually managed

2. Not everyone is a bender. Not everyone can "just ride on a rock (this isn't a rock, it's a Boulder!)" Especially not everyone can just do it without ruining the terrain they drive over. There is also cargo to consider. carts, wagons, coaches all these need smooth roads to work properly and efficiency.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay, fair, but like, the idea that the Fire Nation is going to be better at building roads than the country with actual earthbenders is, like, a flaming hot take.

Architecture is another area where, although the Fire Nation might be able to offer some improvements, the earthbenders clearly have the lead. The Fire Nation spent over a hundred years attempting to break the walls of Ba Sing Se and only succeeded in the end through subterfuge.

But this is kind of getting away from my core issue here, which is the assumption that the Fire Nation would be able to make significant improvements to the average living standard of the Earth Kingdom with minimal effort on our part.

The thing is, Ozai isn't wrong. His plan of "be like Stalin and force the Earth Kingdom to industrialize at swordpoint" is also a fucking terrible idea, but he has a point.
 
Last edited:
I can see three ways out here.

  1. Create some manner of shared national identity, which would be very hard given circumstances.
  2. Consolidate the conquest around the most important and resourceful bits of the EK and leave a weak rump state.
  3. Plan Ozai. Either murder or force relocate large chunks of the population.
 
Last edited:
Antix_Shadows said:
He would say anything to satisfy his murderboner.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, yes, clearly, the ruler of the Fire Nation isn't going to be aware of the scale of a conquest or his country's capabilities. Clearly he just lacks the vision and insight to shoulder the Firebender's Burden, because that hasn't been tried and fallen flat on its face before due to some strange grudge over being invaded and butchered.

No, the entire rant that points out the logistics of having your cake and making it too make no sense unless you're planning to turn the Earth Kingdom into a charnel pit first must be purely for the sake of Ozai's "murderboner" and not at least based on the reality of the situation. Otherwise that would mean happy, all-conquering imperialism without a mountain of corpses is a pipe dream, and we couldn't have that now, could we? Mustn't let the canon or barely-even-subtext of the story itself get in the way of wishlisting. No, I suppose basing assessments of goals and situations on the facts of the matter must be too "boring" to do.

I would have thought that being played like a fiddle would be enough of a lesson that while Ozai is psychotic even for a warmongering Fire Lord and the epitome of why the Fire Nation needs to change course, he is neither ill-informed nor incapable of poking holes in half-baked wishful thinking- in-character, Akane has the excuse of being sheltered from the reality of the war and trying to reconcile her own morality with being at the top of a fundamentally immoral empire that's just worsening the longer it plays at the role of world conqueror; out of character, anyone with awareness of what the Fire Nation was in-story should know better than to unironically, seriously push "we can conquer everyone and it'll work out great" as an actual strategy.
 
Last edited:
Nobody said it would work out great or would be easy. But it is possible long term. You fail to consider that winning the war isn't a failure state.
 
Last edited:
Antix_Shadows said:
Nobody said it would work out great or would be easy. But it is possible long term.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, yes, "it's possible." "Long term". Very specific rebuttals there- and with citations too!- and quite the positive ending that imagery paints too- the thought of someone at some point finally managing, despite all efforts to stop the continued butchery, to tear down the last free cultures in the world and building the last prison camps and barracks needed over the ashes of its victims and the ruins of their lives.

It sounds rather like "it's possible long term" should be said in much the same way one might say: "It's possible, long term, for Marburg to become a global epidemic." or "It's possible, long term, that it could develop into tuberculosis."

I mean, the important part there is really the concession that it wouldn't work out great, which is all that really needs to be said.
 
Last edited:
Antix_Shadows said:
Nobody said it would work out great or would be easy. But it is possible long term. You fail to consider that winning the war isn't a failure state.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ugolino's point is that any meaningful conquest of the Earth Kingdom is directly connected with the loss of life on the scale of the Second World War without army's losses. We're not a bald monk who was taught they don't have to kill people and is also an MC of a cartoon for children. We are a princess of an imperialistic nation. We'll have to climb to the goal of World Conquest through a mountain of corpses.

Edit: yes, "through", not "atop".
 
Last edited:
Raiseth said:
Ugolino's point is that any meaningful conquest of the Earth Kingdom is directly connected with the loss of life on the scale of the Second World War without army's losses. We're not a bald monk who was taught they don't have to kill people and is also an MC of a cartoon for children. We are a princess of an imperialistic nation. We'll have to climb to the goal of World Conquest through a mountain of corpses.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"We would need to" is a slight nitpick, but pretty much. Tunnel visioning on world conquest as something to be desired OOC rather than a result of Akane's current upbringing and lack of exposure, or pushing for it beyond what's needed in-story, is essentially closing off any chance of any positive outcome- for reasons that will be covered later.
 
Last edited:
Ugolino said:
"We would need to" is a slight nitpick, but pretty much. Tunnel visioning on world conquest as something to be desired OOC rather than a result of Akane's current upbringing and lack of exposure, or pushing for it beyond what's needed in-story, is essentially closing off any chance of any positive outcome- for reasons that will be covered later.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

On the contrary, Ug, it might only close off what you perceive to be positive outcomes. The situation is fluid - in no way does the conquest path restrict us from having a happy ending or, as you put it, a positive outcome. What you perceive to be the primary objective of this situation and by extension, quest, is not necessarily shared amongst everyone, just a heads up.
 
S-159A1 said:
On the contrary, Ug, it might only close off what you perceive to be positive outcomes. The situation is fluid - in no way does the conquest path restrict us from having a happy ending or, as you put it, a positive outcome. What you perceive to be the primary objective of this situation and by extension, quest, is not necessarily shared amongst everyone, just a heads up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Look, without giving an excuse to launch into an OOC Ozai speech about world domination and the glories of conquest, again, I think people will find my definition is the one that makes more sense for an character-driven quest.

For the moment, suffice it to say that needlessly advocating "fire and blood" for its own sake and resulting in easily avoided negative effects is not a very good definition of a happy ending.
 
I'm just going to ask one thing:
Don't whitewash this war.
I mean, Akane honestly believes she's here to provide the Earth Kingdom with the benefits of civilization, but you should know better.
Civilizing the savages was the pretense for at least half of this world's wars, and we know from history the real reasons: money, land and resources.

Akane isn't going anywhere with this kind of thinking. She either goes full Ozai or gives up on War entirely. Or she half-asses things, that might work too. Ozai, as difficult as it is to say, rightfully criticizes Akane, because she's being hypocritical in some of aspects of her life. He is also a crazy fuck who goes Phoenix King at the end of the story, so eh.

There, my duty as a serious poster is done, time to shitpost... maybe somewhere else.
 
S-159A1 said:
On the contrary, Ug, it might only close off what you perceive to be positive outcomes. The situation is fluid - in no way does the conquest path restrict us from having a happy ending or, as you put it, a positive outcome. What you perceive to be the primary objective of this situation and by extension, quest, is not necessarily shared amongst everyone, just a heads up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"If we try very very hard, we might be able to burn down the entirety of the cultures who oppose our imperialistic conquest."

Yeah, no thanks, I'll make do without that kind of "positive outcome". More importantly, I really doubt kosm is a poor enough writer to let you guys get away with that kind of utter hypocrisy.

But hey, go ahead and try for it! At worst, you'll just fail spectacularly and drive Akane's mental health further into the ground (as Word of God explicitly mentioned as a consequence of going conquer-happy.)
 
You know, when Kosm talked about the conquest path, she said it'd make the story darker, not that it would completely ruin our mental state or chances for a happy ending. Please quit your fear mongering, @Redshirt Army

Edit: Yeah when I get to my computer I'll have a more detailed rebuttal. On a phone right now though.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top