Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

[Carstein]

To be fair, for much of post-agricultural Human history, some degree of constant war was the default state of affairs; the current modern era is unusually peaceful in comparison.

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If we're being fair, it should also be considered that war has an incredibly wide definition. A minor conflict between Classical Greek Poleis is just as much a war as the World Wars. The former will involve about ten thousand men, if that, and the small number of casualties characteristic of Hoplite warfare. I don't need to explain the scale of the latter.

The former example is far, far more common. The great civilization breaking conflicts we tend to think of when we think war, were very, very much the exception to the rule.

 

[Neruz]

If we're being fair, it should also be considered that war has an incredibly wide definition. A minor conflict between Classical Greek Poleis is just as much a war as the World Wars. The former will involve about ten thousand men, if that, and the small number of casualties characteristic of Hoplite warfare. I don't need to explain the scale of the latter.

The former example is far, far more common. The great civilization breaking conflicts we tend to think of when we think war, were very, very much the exception to the rule.

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Oh definitely, one of the major reasons why World War 1 was such a huge shock to everyone was the sheer mind-boggling scale of it. A war involving millions of soldiers fought across an entire continent was incomprehensible, until it happened. Guns also made warfare substantially more lethal than cold weapons, one of the many contributing factors that transformed war from a fun pastime for the nobility into the monstrous tide of death and destruction that characterizes Industrial Warfare.

It is extremely easy to forget just how abnormal the current state of affairs is; the modern world has changed more in the last couple of centuries than it had for thousands of years prior.

 

[Carstein]

Oh definitely, one of the major reasons why World War 1 was such a huge shock to everyone was the sheer mind-boggling scale of it. A war involving millions of soldiers fought across an entire continent was incomprehensible, until it happened. Guns also made warfare substantially more lethal than cold weapons, one of the many contributing factors that transformed war from a fun pastime for the nobility into the monstrous tide of death and destruction that characterizes Industrial Warfare.

It is extremely easy to forget just how abnormal the current state of affairs is; the modern world has changed more in the last couple of centuries than it had for thousands of years prior.

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My point, is that the war currently engulfing the world of AtLA, is a stunning example of the latter sort. Once this is over, there won't be another for quite a while. So even if June is technically correct, and there are minor conflicts, her statement won't be entirely true, as what she means, and her experience of war, is one hundred years of grinding conflict.

Another interesting thing to consider, is that it's not industrialization that made the second sort of war possible, it just made the effects more obvious. Philip and Alexander's conquests broke a civilization, involved a great deal of innovation, and broke all the rules. Before that, the Peloponnesian war where Sparta and Athens clashed for hegemony over Greece, was the forefront of innovation, and also changed the status quo.

These wars are far more common than just several modern conflicts. Though the majority of modern conflicts are closer to the first kind. Korea, Vietnam, most every American adventure into the Middle East, you get the idea. The important distinction is how it changes the status quo, and at the end of this war, either or both the Fire Nation and the Earth Kingdom will be massively changed, more so than what's already occurred.

 

[DarkSideBard]

If your opinion is that identities and territories like "Fire Nation" and "Earth Nation" are immutable, then of course your theory of history is going to be that any conflict that involves territory occupation will last indefinitely. Either all of one side is dead, the invaders leave and territory snaps back to its previous position, or you're still fighting.

I'm not super sure about ATLA metaphysics, but the idea that any human identity is immutable and inheritable is...kinda silly, IMO. Then again, it's almost as silly as the Earth/Fire/Water/Air cultures split is, so.

 

[Kufufu]

It makes a lot of sense for someone born in an era of constant war to believe that this is the default state and that any attempt at change is futile. This may seem rather silly to someone with access to a broader historical perspective that shows how the current status quo is ultimately only a consequence of geopolitical conditions that can and inevitably will change, but it is often a very common perspective.

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They're been waring against each other for a century and show no sign of stopping anytime soon, it's not unreasonable for her to think such not unlikely for her to be correct in her assumptions.

Remember, it took literal divine intervention to stop the war, and even that took decades to finish the job and it was largely accomplished through sheer dumb luck.

 

[Gorton]

What I think Antix was trying to say is not that you are avoiding it, but that the pressure to create a better system is lessened. Eventually outside advances would supercede it as in real life, but there would also be significant resistance here to change (livelihoods, etc) and less push towards due to a stop-gap measure.

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Yeah, whereas the Luddites of real life were so accepting of technology that they're still used as a synonym for forward thinking technophiles.

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WTF is your point? I thought you were trying to say that it would stifle innovation compared to IRL factories, but its actually that people don't like losing their jobs?
Thats such a trivial stance.

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When you have an industry that normally would be done manually, but in this world is done by bending, that's a commodity and a resource, and it's also a safe livlihood for benders that they don't want to lose. It's essentially job security.

It also provides a stepping stone that real life didn't have - in that it would be more efficient with benders than without, as they can provide significant service that the real world couldn't match without significant investment of manpower - which means that the overall desire for more, more, more is mitigated.

Less want for better system -> less need to develop better system
Increased desire for job security -> pushback from people when change occurs

The luddites are a perfect example of what I mentioned in the initial post - change led to the affected workers resisting.
Except here your luddites' anger, and their words and deeds, are backed by magic.

So yeah, there's two points to be made. They're not trivial. How much people want something, and how angry they get is vital to consider.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I'm struggling to argue with you because you seem to be holding two normally exclusive positions:

1. There will never be any innovation because benders are great
2. When the inevitable innovation occurs benders will tear the whole system apart because job security.

So to counter a less strawmanned version of you arguments: look at the world around you, if you're on the internet chances are that your quality of life is probably the highest in history as measured by factors like expected lifespan, access to education, the ability to own luxury ( not essential to survival ) products. Its fairly safe to say that its probably better a better system than factory life in the proto industrial elemental nations. Despite that sometimes I wonder if we'll find a better system before we destroy the planet and doom us all.
There will always be want for a better system because there will always be problems and because humans didn't evolve to be complacent, we're almost constantly looking for ways to improve our position, and obviously the same market forces that applied to our world will apply here just the same.

Now of course the improvements to the factory that Avatar will see aren't going to parallel our world precisely however I can certainly see ways that a capitalist would want to improve the system, for example, the process as seen appears to rely on highly skilled workers who can presumably demand a high wage all coordinating as a team. Obviously we want to reduce that as much as possible by simplifying the process so that any idiot who can bend can do the job to reduce their bargaining power as well as streamlining tasks like bending that big water ball thing so that team work can be downplayed and we can start a proper factory production line where everyone does one thing.
Given that by the time of Korra, a technique as dangerous and rare as lightning bending has been reduced to a minimum wage job (apparently) they clearly succeeded in this canonically.

And this brings us onto the second point, yes benders use magic, do you know who else does?

Yeah, heres a wikipedia quote for you:

Article:

The British Army clashed with the Luddites on several occasions. At one time there were more British soldiers fighting the Luddites than there were fighting Napoleon on the Iberian Peninsula.

Its certainly going to be violent and dangerous, especially for non-benders however at the end of the day, the not combat trained mob will lose to the professional fighters.

I'm sorry you seem to be upset my use of the world trivial, I was thinking in the mathematical sense of differential equations and the like i.e. solve for d^2x/dy^2 = dx/dy where x = 0 its true but it is also not a particularly great insight.

 

[Gorton]

I'm struggling to argue with you because you seem to be holding two normally exclusive positions:

1. There will never be any innovation because benders are great
2. When the inevitable innovation occurs benders will tear the whole system apart because job security.

So to counter a less strawmanned version of you arguments: look at the world around you, if you're on the internet chances are that your quality of life is probably the highest in history as measured by factors like expected lifespan, access to education, the ability to own luxury ( not essential to survival ) products. Its fairly safe to say that its probably better a better system than factory life in the proto industrial elemental nations. Despite that sometimes I wonder if we'll find a better system before we destroy the planet and doom us all.
There will always be want for a better system because there will always be problems and because humans didn't evolve to be complacent, we're almost constantly looking for ways to improve our position, and obviously the same market forces that applied to our world will apply here just the same.

Now of course the improvements to the factory that Avatar will see aren't going to parallel our world precisely however I can certainly see ways that a capitalist would want to improve the system, for example, the process as seen appears to rely on highly skilled workers who can presumably demand a high wage all coordinating as a team. Obviously we want to reduce that as much as possible by simplifying the process so that any idiot who can bend can do the job to reduce their bargaining power as well as streamlining tasks like bending that big water ball thing so that team work can be downplayed and we can start a proper factory production line where everyone does one thing.
Given that by the time of Korra, a technique as dangerous and rare as lightning bending has been reduced to a minimum wage job (apparently) they clearly succeeded in this canonically.

And this brings us onto the second point, yes benders use magic, do you know who else does?

Yeah, heres a wikipedia quote for you:

Article:

The British Army clashed with the Luddites on several occasions. At one time there were more British soldiers fighting the Luddites than there were fighting Napoleon on the Iberian Peninsula.

Its certainly going to be violent and dangerous, especially for non-benders however at the end of the day, the not combat trained mob will lose to the professional fighters.

I'm sorry you seem to be upset my use of the world trivial, I was thinking in the mathematical sense of differential equations and the like i.e. solve for d^2x/dy^2 = dx/dy where x = 0 its true but it is also not a particularly great insight.

Click to shrink...

When you have an industry that normally would be done manually, but in this world is done by bending, that's a commodity and a resource, and it's also a safe livlihood for benders that they don't want to lose. It's essentially job security.

It also provides a stepping stone that real life didn't have - in that it would be more efficient with benders than without, as they can provide significant service that the real world couldn't match without significant investment of manpower - which means that the overall desire for more, more, more is mitigated.

Less want for better system -> less need to develop better system
Increased desire for job security -> pushback from people when change occurs

The luddites are a perfect example of what I mentioned in the initial post - change led to the affected workers resisting.
Except here your luddites' anger, and their words and deeds, are backed by magic.

So yeah, there's two points to be made. They're not trivial. How much people want something, and how angry they get is vital to consider.

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There's always going to be a demand for something, and people have become increasingly efficient in collecting that something while continuously supplying and increasing the supply of said demand, due to population increases or other reasons.

Obviously there were massive jumps in say, mining when people learned, and started to apply advanced techniques -
There was a demand, people learned how to get better at it, to produce more. This happened, and is still happening. We innovate to become better.

So let's apply bending to this - bending, like many other things, is an advancement, something that is useful and helpful in increasing productivity.

And like every thing that increases productivity, it lessens demand, because the supply is greater. Eventually, the demand will reach a point where people are forced to innovate again.

So what's the lesson to be learned?

The innovations that would allow for the easy superceding of bending are essentially suppressed by a lack of people looking for them until the solution is right there in front of them.

This is everywhere. It's blatant. Look at the technology - it's centered around bending.

The Fire Nation, for all of it's technology, has almost zero innovation in gunpowder - and it's probably because they can shoot fire out of their hands, or at least a decent part of the population and army can, and has been able to do so for thousands of years.

The Earth Kingdom could never sustain the population of Ba Sing Se without earthbending. Food has to be delivered around the city, -> earthbending trains. I wouldn't be surprised if the earthbenders tilled the soil to lessen the effects of overfarming -> earthbending used in lieu of tools and machinery.
The same goes for construction, and mining, and... and... etc.

The Water Tribes constructed cities out of the ice with waterbending. They also presumerably fished and traveled with it.

tl;dr: Bending is a free innovation that depresses the need for other innovations, just like any other innovation ever. It's not going to completely eliminate any desire or need, and that's not what I said earlier.

 

[Antix_Shadows]

There is a point to be made that Innovations usually only happen if there's a need for them to, or an adequate ability for innovators to make lots of money.

 

[Dark as Silver]

The innovations that would allow for the easy superceding of bending are essentially suppressed by a lack of people looking for them until the solution is right there in front of them.

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I don't know what to say I've asserted several innovations that people could be looking for and you just say 'No because people aren't looking for them'.

Now of course the improvements to the factory that Avatar will see aren't going to parallel our world precisely however I can certainly see ways that a capitalist would want to improve the system, for example, the process as seen appears to rely on highly skilled workers who can presumably demand a high wage all coordinating as a team. Obviously we want to reduce that as much as possible by simplifying the process so that any idiot who can bend can do the job to reduce their bargaining power as well as streamlining tasks like bending that big water ball thing so that team work can be downplayed and we can start a proper factory production line where everyone does one thing.
Given that by the time of Korra, a technique as dangerous and rare as lightning bending has been reduced to a minimum wage job (apparently) they clearly succeeded in this canonically.

Click to shrink...

Please explain why market forces would make these innovations that I suggested which do not replace bending happen.
I think this is given that by the time of Legend of Korra in canon we know they did!

 

[Gorton]

I don't know what to say I've asserted several innovations that people could be looking for and you just say 'No because people aren't looking for them'.

Please explain why market forces would make these innovations that I suggested which do not replace bending happen.
I think this is given that by the time of Legend of Korra in canon we know they did!

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To innovate something, you have to be able to understand that it's possible to do it another way. Earthbending, at least in smaller-scale areas, is a transport killer. More sophisticated techniques may never be developed purely from an EK perspective, if bending depresses the need to even discover how to do it otherwise. This is the point i'm trying to make. If you have a situation where you need to do y, and you can do y, you are less likely to be looking for another way to do y, unless there's a better solution right in front of you.
I've never said a blanket "no and never" like you "quoted". As you can see below.

What I think Antix was trying to say is not that you are avoiding it, but that the pressure to create a better system is lessened. Eventually outside advances would supercede it as in real life, but there would also be significant resistance here to change (livelihoods, etc) and less push towards due to a stop-gap measure.

Click to shrink...

It also provides a stepping stone that real life didn't have - in that it would be more efficient with benders than without, as they can provide significant service that the real world couldn't match without significant investment of manpower - which means that the overall desire for more, more, more is mitigated.

Click to shrink...

tl;dr: Bending is a free innovation that depresses the need for other innovations, just like any other innovation ever. It's not going to completely eliminate any desire or need, and that's not what I said earlier.

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There's a massive difference between what you said i'm saying, and what i'm actually saying.

 

[Tyran]

What is exactly the point of this debate?

 

[Dark as Silver]

To innovate something, you have to be able to understand that it's possible to do it another way. Earthbending, at least in smaller-scale areas, is a transport killer. More sophisticated techniques may never be developed purely from an EK perspective, if bending depresses the need to even discover how to do it otherwise. This is the point i'm trying to make. If you have a situation where you need to do y, and you can do y, you are less likely to be looking for another way to do y, unless there's a better solution right in front of you.
I've never said a blanket "no and never" like you "quoted". As you can see below.





There's a massive difference between what you said i'm saying, and what i'm actually saying.

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If you acknowledge that bending won't stop innovation, then what are you trying to say? Can we back track and try to sumarise to see what I'm not understanding?
Lets go back to the first quotes:

That factory looks like they are using benders to take shortcuts to avoid having to innovate technology.

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This is wrong at face value, because the development of a process requiring benders of three elements was itself almost certainly an innovation since it was probably impossible to get this workforce together during the war. It's also wrong because it assumes that technological development must always follow the same path that ours did in history.
You had a very generous interpretation of this:

What I think Antix was trying to say is not that you are avoiding it, but that the pressure to create a better system is lessened. Eventually outside advances would supercede it as in real life, but there would also be significant resistance here to change (livelihoods, etc) and less push towards due to a stop-gap measure.

Click to shrink...

And I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the position because the resistance to change is utterly unrelated to bending which was Antix's gripe in the first place, hence why I mentioned the luddites.
I also think that your assertion that the pressure to create a better system will reduce further innovation just isn't correct. If it where we'd have seen the rate of innovation be at its highest when humans where hunter gatherers and slow down as technology and innovation improved our systems until they were near perfect, instead we've seen the opposite as improvements to the systems freed up extra people to find new improvements to the systems and its exponentially accelerated.

What is exactly the point of this debate?

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Both of us are either too stupid or too masochistic to stop. Personally, I think I'm a little of both...

 

[Gorton]

If you acknowledge that bending won't stop innovation, then what are you trying to say? Can we back track and try to sumarise to see what I'm not understanding?
Lets go back to the first quotes:

This is wrong at face value, because the development of a process requiring benders of three elements was itself almost certainly an innovation since it was probably impossible to get this workforce together during the war. It's also wrong because it assumes that technological development must always follow the same path that ours did in history.
You had a very generous interpretation of this:

And I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the position because the resistance to change is utterly unrelated to bending which was Antix's gripe in the first place, hence why I mentioned the luddites.
I also think that your assertion that the pressure to create a better system will reduce further innovation just isn't correct. If it where we'd have seen the rate of innovation be at its highest when humans where hunter gatherers and slow down as technology and innovation improved our systems until they were near perfect, instead we've seen the opposite as improvements to the systems freed up extra people to find new improvements to the systems and its exponentially accelerated.

Both of us are either too stupid or too masochistic to stop. Personally, I think I'm a little of both...

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No, no, see this is the problem right here:

I also think that your assertion that the pressure to create a better system will reduce further innovation just isn't correct.

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This is the exact opposite of what i'm saying.

If it where we'd have seen the rate of innovation be at its highest when humans where hunter gatherers and slow down as technology and innovation improved our systems until they were near perfect, instead we've seen the opposite as improvements to the systems freed up extra people to find new improvements to the systems and its exponentially accelerated.

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I'd argue that we are gradually improving and that's much easier with our society being significantly better at the scientific method, as well as research and development becoming more and more of a dedicated job(s) as you say. Still, what causes the innovation? Pressure.
If we suddenly had the technology that rendered all work obsolete, and we no longer had wants or needs, research would become something for the sake of research, and while I am sure it would never stop, the driving force behind the vast majority would fade away.

Real world-examples of innovation and technological advancement happening:
Wars have historically always lead to technological innovation. Pressure made it a necessity to innovate.
Modern era: We've been using petrol powered vehicles for the last 100 years because the technology is there, it's easy, cheaper than alternatives, and it's only due to mass external pressure from governments, lobbyists etc that manufacturers are trying different things.
The same goes for energy companies, and fossil fuels.

 

[Antix_Shadows]

I don't want to keep this derail going, however I will at least clarify my position so that i'm not unclear.

I believe that bending provides the ability to do things that you would otherwise need technology to do, but that there's an upper limit to the amount of utility that provides. Say you make a system that streamlines a production process, but relies on bending, and then you work on that until it's as efficient as possible. Now you are in deep, but the system cannot improve more. It is at these times when innovation begins to stop because it's prohibitively expensive to change your entire system from relying on benders to relying entirely on technology. and people are less willing to completely overhaul the system for small increases in efficiency during peacetime

 

[Dark as Silver]

Real world-examples of innovation and technological advancement happening:
Wars have historically always lead to technological innovation. Pressure made it a necessity to innovate.
Modern era: We've been using petrol powered vehicles for the last 100 years because the technology is there, it's easy, cheaper than alternatives, and it's only due to mass external pressure from governments, lobbyists etc that manufacturers are trying different things.
The same goes for energy companies, and fossil fuels.

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Those aren't examples, those are assertions.
I disagree with statements like war drives innovations. Generally things like Radar, the Telegraph and so on are developed independently of war however its not until war breaks out that the scientists get the funding they need to implement their inventions on a larger scale.
I don't know what you where referring to about cars or there being a particularly large lobbying industry outside of the mainstream automobile industry, this is the first google result I got researching. Biofuel, fossil-fuel lobbyists join to fight electric-car incentives I hope this is as funny to you as it is to me.
Energy companies are notoriously complacent and resistant to swapping away from fossil fuels, despite the massive benefits of renewable energies or nuclear and rather than convert or innovate to beat these they'd rather lobby governments for preferable subsidies so that they remain competitive. The Impact of Fossil-Fuel Subsidies on Renewable Electricity Generation

As a rule of thumb I'd say passionate people researching out of interest are the mothers of invention rather than necessity however only after a few years when they've finally got a grant to do a full scale prototype.

I don't want to keep this derail going, however I will at least clarify my position so that i'm not unclear.

I believe that bending provides the ability to do things that you would otherwise need technology to do, but that there's an upper limit to the amount of utility that provides. Say you make a system that streamlines a production process, but relies on bending, and then you work on that until it's as efficient as possible. Now you are in deep, but the system cannot improve more. It is at these times when innovation begins to stop because it's prohibitively expensive to change your entire system from relying on benders to relying entirely on technology. and people are less willing to completely overhaul the system for small increases in efficiency during peacetime

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Thats a more reasonable position, getting stuck in a local minimum is absolutely something that can happen and sink businesses.
I doubt it will happen here however because there is enough machinery require high precision parts that I think there must be some research into how to create them. And that will eventually find a better way even if it might be somewhat slower.

 

[Gorton]

Those aren't examples, those are assertions.
I disagree with statements like war drives innovations. Generally things like Radar, the Telegraph and so on are developed independently of war however its not until war breaks out that the scientists get the funding they need to implement their inventions on a larger scale.
I don't know what you where referring to about cars or there being a particularly large lobbying industry outside of the mainstream automobile industry, this is the first google result I got researching. Biofuel, fossil-fuel lobbyists join to fight electric-car incentives I hope this is as funny to you as it is to me.
Energy companies are notoriously complacent and resistant to swapping away from fossil fuels, despite the massive benefits of renewable energies or nuclear and rather than convert or innovate to beat these they'd rather lobby governments for preferable subsidies so that they remain competitive. The Impact of Fossil-Fuel Subsidies on Renewable Electricity Generation

As a rule of thumb I'd say passionate people researching out of interest are the mothers of invention rather than necessity however only after a few years when they've finally got a grant to do a full scale prototype.

Thats a more reasonable position, getting stuck in a local minimum is absolutely something that can happen and sink businesses.
I doubt it will happen here however because there is enough machinery require high precision parts that I think there must be some research into how to create them. And that will eventually find a better way even if it might be somewhat slower.

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Okay, let's clarify something:

Innovation ≠ inventing new tech, but it can mean that or improving existing technology/methology.

I disagree with statements like war drives innovations. Generally things like Radar, the Telegraph and so on are developed independently of war however its not until war breaks out that the scientists get the funding they need to implement their inventions on a larger scale.

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Okay, but what caused the Radar, Telegraph to be used more, made better, and developed even further? You already have the answer - war did, and you even say it in this sentence! The war caused pressure to further develop technology!

Energy companies are notoriously complacent and resistant to swapping away from fossil fuels, despite the massive benefits of renewable energies or nuclear and rather than convert or innovate to beat these they'd rather lobby governments for preferable subsidies so that they remain competitive.

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Yes, this is true, because they (the companies) benefit, but our mutual (it appears) dislike of them isn't the topic xD.
Anyway, the point of the matter is that, in the 1980s, only a few countries had policy to increase renewable energy sources. By 2005, it was 55. By 2011, 118. By 2016, 176.
There has been an increase in the money spent toward building, money spent toward developing, and money spent toward advertising for renewable energy. What is this but pressure, driving technological advancement?
The same goes for cars on petrol.

As a rule of thumb I'd say passionate people researching out of interest are the mothers of invention rather than necessity however only after a few years when they've finally got a grant to do a full scale prototype.

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I hope we both agree then that wants and needs drive the advancement of both technology, methology and also adoption of technology, then?

EDIT: Also yeah. We have gone... beyond the topic. If you wanna reply, go ahead, and i'll make further replies in pm.

 

[Dark as Silver]

To the PM's we go.

 

[VexMasterTyrant]

Earth Kingdom Fanatic: We gonna fight against the Fire Nation of generations.

Big Boi Comet: I'm about to end this man's entire career.

 

[kosm]

Hey all, we're going live in a little less than 10 minutes. Just announcing it early because I'm actually going to have to start off with a vote - we need to choose whether to enter Gaipan openly and announce the princess's presence, or keep your arrival secret.

 

[Dur'id the Druid]

@kosm - And you already have both versions written? Amazing.

 

[kosm]

@Dur'id the Druid - oh gosh nope lol I write everything as I go. That's why the story is such a mess at times lol, this is literally all first drafts written in response to people's decisions at the time. It's fun though! And here's the results of tonight's session! I'm so sorry that tonight's session was just sort of an interlude introducing the situation and relevant characters and giving infodumping again but at least this time it's for a productive reason - choosing Gaipan's policy to deal with the rebel sympathizers. The votes at the end of tonight's session will get opened again for a bit at the start of next live session, so anyone who missed the vote tonight will have a chance to chime in then! Thanks for reading everyone!

-----


97 AC (15 years old)
Gaipan: Capitol Building

You, Mitsuko, Hua, and June steal your way into Gaipan in secret, leaving your caravan behind; it continues on its path to the front, to serve as a decoy. No reason to let the rebels here know who has come to visit them, yet. The mayor of Gaipan quietly sees you to your rooms - one for you and one for your companions, though you do have Mitsuko moved into your room for protection - and has his butler provide you with refreshment. You note that there are few servants other than the butler, and the rooms here are positively tiny and practically impoverished by your standards.

Calling it a 'capitol building' might be a little generous.

According to what you've read, Gaipan was once a rather bustling town. It has a good location near several significant waterways and roads, making it well-suited to trade. The war has made it wither, both before and after the Fire Nation first conquered it decades ago. Commander Long commented that most settlements past the west coast of the Earth Kingdom are either fresh conquests or towns that have changed hands many times over; Gaipan is, unfortunately, no exception. Though it's been quite some time since the front last passed back and forth over Gaipan, the fighting took its toll - and worse, a rebellion some nine years ago had a brief period of such success that reinforcements had to be sent in to retake the town, ripping open Gaipan's old scars. Bleeding away more of its life.

You knew in theory that the Gaipan you were going to was a shadow of the Gaipan you've read about in history books. Less than a shadow. But seeing it in front of you is still... it's almost stunning. You've never been in a settlement this small and sparse in your entire life, not even if you count Ember Island. Gaipan is barely more than a logging outpost, now, and a rest stop for troops moving through the region. But there are still people living here. Civilians. Natives, mostly, but also a slowly growing number of settlers from the homeland. You suppose that's part of the war's nature. Empty land always ends up refilled. And conquered land often ends up contested.

You just have to do what you can to help this region finally achieve some of the peace it deserves.

In the morning, you meet behind closed doors with the mayor and his officials to discuss your plans for Gaipan.

The governor's meeting room is a simple affair, furnished with nothing but a long table with maps and papers piled on top of it. You're given a seat at the head of the table, of course. Mitsuko and June stand behind you, and Hua to your right. There's a great deal of bowing and complimenting as the others around the table introduce themselves to you.

"We are humbled by your presence, your Highness." The mayor, Shen Liu. The primary civilian authority, though he's effectively subordinate to the ranking military officer...

"I look forward to working with you, Princess Akane." Lieutenant Colonel Yu Zhao, whose authority you suspect comes from more than just rank - the Zhaos are an old, prestigious military family, one of the few that climbed in stature after your Father's ascension rather than falling.

"We are at your disposal, Princess." The Lieutenant Colonel is accompanied by Captain Itsuo Chujo, the head of the local guard. He bows deeper than the others; despite being one of the older men in the room, he also seems to be the most self-conscious. Which is a little surprising, considering the last person in the room -

"It is an honor to have you here with us, your Majesty."

Yin Tan, adviser to the mayor. A native. If her olive skin didn't give her away, the fact her clothes are Earth Kingdom green would - as if someone decided to make sure no one would mistakenly assume her ancestry traces back to the homeland. To your homeland, at least. The woman looks to be in her thirties, old enough to have lived through at least one major rebellion. And if she's here, you imagine that she collaborated with your government through all of them.

Interesting. What makes someone willing to make that choice? It's something you'll likely benefit from understanding.

After exchanging polite introductions with all of them, you call the meeting to order. The mayor takes the lead, filling you in on the details of the situation.

"The situation has been... escalating," he says. "Onyx's cell is active somewhere near the town, and he's been trying to recruit our natives. Flyers have been making their way into the town somehow - propaganda posters, mostly making claims about us planning a genocide against the natives."

Wonder where they got that idea.

"We've been as gentle as we can," the mayor says. "We've collected and burned all the propaganda we could find, and punished the people reading it with a few nights in the town jail. We've offered rewards for information and turned up a few leads - we got the names and faces of two of the distributors, but one managed to escape arrest. The other was transferred safely to the prison camp outside of town."

"Good," you say. "Has he offered any information?"

"Not yet, Princess. I'm told they're working on him."

Either way, June may be able to track down more rebels using his scent. You nod. "Continue."

"The issue is that the distribution of propaganda hasn't halted," the mayor says. "And the natives are reading it. More and more people are filtering in and out of the jail, but the punishment isn't severe enough to deter anyone. They're getting agitated. We've had vandalism, refusal to work, rocks thrown at guards - not bended, just thrown, but the intent is the same. When we've arrested those responsible, rumors keep getting started that we're punishing the natives at random rather than finding the guilty parties. The rebels have somehow managed to become very effective in convincing the locals that their misinformation is true. And we don't have the facilities to imprison people for long here, so we send the violent natives out to the real prison..."

He trails off. "And that plays directly into the rumors about genocide," Hua supplies.

"Yes." The mayor's nervousness is obvious; he swallows before continuing. "I admit that we didn't consider the enemy's propaganda a serious threat at first," he says. "And we lost some time as a result. But I've reassessed the situation and developed a new plan to repair matters, with your approval. I believe we should arrest and publicly try the worst of the troublemakers here, to break the back of the rebels' support network in the town - and, at the same time, I would like to open a new provisioning program to give additional supplies to the poorer natives in the town, to improve their situation. A carrot and a stick." The mayor gestures nervously. "Between the two, we can pacify the natives long enough for Onyx to be killed. After that, the agitation will die down on its own."

Interesting. You glance over the other officials, keeping your expression neutral. "What do the rest of you think of this plan?" you ask. "Please speak freely. I'd like to hear every perspective."

"Providing additional provisions to a rebellious population has obvious risks," Lieutenant Colonel Zhao says. "There's a very real chance that any supplies we give could end up in the hands of the rebels we're fighting. Putting the town under martial law until the crisis has passed could deprive the rebels of support just as effectively without the risks. The natives won't like it, but once the agitators are dead they'll move on. And if they're kept under watch to prevent them from acquiring weapons, there's little risk of them starting an uprising of their own. Not an effective one, at least. The only difficulty will be in making sure they're kept under close enough watch." He frowns. "Based on the reports we've gotten of Onyx's attacks on shipments in the region, I suspect Onyx might actually have a tunneler."

Hua's eyebrows go up. Your expression remains neutral, as always. "How certain are you?" you ask.

"I've learned to trust my instincts when it comes to tunnelers," he answers simply.

Earthbending isn't just useful for combat and creating fortifications. Not by a long shot. The ability to create tunnels for hidden travel - and not just to create them, but to create them quickly and on a scale sufficient to move troops - is possibly one of the most strategically valuable forms of bending in the war. It's also rare enough that if Onyx has a tunneler, it's vanishingly unlikely that he just happened to find that tunneler here. Tunnelers are specialists. Elite specialists.

"We'll have to take the threat seriously, then," you muse. You nod to the guard captain. "What else?"

"I've never fought a tunneler," Captain Chujo says. "But I do know these people. They're angry, your Highness. Enough to make some bad choices. Giving them a little extra food and pay could help convince them we're not planning on killing them all. But our people will complain. The natives don't work as hard as they do - they won't like seeing them getting extra pay for nothing. If we're giving out rewards, I think we should give them to the hardest workers, not just the poor. Maybe it'll get the natives more focused on work, and less on rebellion."

You look to Yin Tan after he finishes. She seems surprised by your attention, and bows before answering.

"The officers and the mayor all make good points, your Majesty," she says. "Whatever you choose to do, I will make sure the natives understand that you do it for their sake."

No suggestions of her own to offer? You suppose she doesn't want to overstep her bounds - even with your permission to speak, she'll still have to answer to the others here long after you're gone. But her ideas could be valuable -

Unless the mayor already voiced them. Hm. Did he really come up with the carrot and stick all on his own?

"Thank you," you tell her. "Your contributions are appreciated."

The mayor glances at her as she bows again. Yes. You do think the provisioning program was her idea, wasn't it?

It's your choice what to suggest or ask here, and the final policy decision will be yours.



-----


That concluded the text of the chapter - after that I just opened the collection of votes we needed to address. The votes aren't final yet; they'll be opened again at the start of the session, Saturday at 6 pm EST. But for those curious, the current leading options are:
- Implement a provisioning program giving moderate aid to the poor and moderate rewards for hard work.
- Do not implement martial law.
- Lighten the sentences for minor crimes, releasing people if needed.
- Keep your presence here a secret for now.
Sorry for the lack of action again! Next time we should finally really get into the fray. I'm excited haha, I hope you all enjoy! Thanks for reading!

 

[SolipsistSerpent]

I see that while it was framed as racistly as possible, that previous military advisor was quite on the nose about Onyx's true threat being his mastery of propaganda.

 

[Conclave]

I see that while it was framed as racistly as possible, that previous military advisor was quite on the nose about Onyx's true threat being his mastery of propaganda.

Click to shrink...

Just because someone is a racist a-hole doesn't mean they're incompetent.

 

[dhasenan]

Just because someone is a racist a-hole doesn't mean they're incompetent.

Click to shrink...

Though being racist is not conducive to properly assessing other people, so being racist and correctly assessing the strengths of the group you're trying to culturally destroy is slightly surprising.