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Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

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I'm not sure there'd be a serious need of formalizing that industrial regions get more political power, since they inherently already have more sway due to the economical weight they can throw around.

Until there's a lot of industrial farming and food production going on, you also don't wanna risk silly stuff like everyone prioritizing their industrial regions assuming they'll import food right up to the point where you have a nationwide famine.
 
I'd be really careful about splitting the EK into its regions as a political choice rather than necessity if the plan is to keep an united EK: Let's not forget that when this happened in reality (USA) with a much more unified, smaller? population and landmass, there was a civil war within 70 years.

The EK only remains *unified* as such because of the FN and the war. We know from the show that a tiny regional leader was able to break the EK's power over the entire continent aside from Ba Sing Se (Chin) who only didn't complete it all because of Kyoshi. We also know that Bumi is a *King*. He's not an administrator. He's a king. He holds pretty much absolute power over his holdings, and although he technically reports to the EK, I can't see any ties beyond a flag that actually exist. The EK as it exists is a massive and overstretched feudal system, much like medieval france, where the king is merely first among a series of powerful leaders.

Now, the reason why I really would not make this a formal situation: At literally any point, those regions might decide "how about we aren't subserviant to this anymore, considering it really doesn't have that much power?" and also "I want to be ruled by our own people".
It's significantly easier to maintain control over a few men rather than hundreds who have many agendas. It's also harder for you to create a semi-independent state in your land without furthering nationalism, especially with some sort of elected assembly even if it's merely advisory or just to administrate.


Now taking all of that into account: It's precisely what the FN should do if it takes over.

Splitting the EK into many parts and allowing those regional rivalries to take place, playing these areas against each other, and more specifically the leaders of those areas against each other hampers any sense of unity they may have, which is crucial.
 
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Gorton said:
Splitting the EK into many parts and allowing those regional rivalries to take place, playing these areas against each other, and more specifically the leaders of those areas against each other hampers any sense of unity they may have, which is crucial.
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That honestly requires a lot of time setups, probably something that Akane would have to work towards during her entire lifetime.

People she conquers aren't gonna magically forget that the Fire Nation came and made them her subjects. It fails in the basic logic of 'Why are we slinging shit at each other when the country's that's been trying to conquer us for the better part of the century is right at our doorstep?'

Basically, people aren't sheep.
 
Alviam099 said:
That honestly requires a lot of time setups, probably something that Akane would have to work towards during her entire lifetime.

People she conquers aren't gonna magically forget that the Fire Nation came and made them her subjects. It fails in the basic logic of 'Why are we slinging shit at each other when the country's that's been trying to conquer us for the better part of the century is right at our doorstep?'

Basically, people aren't sheep.
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Yes, i'm not saying it's easy. It should have been started under Sozin or Azulon, but to be honest they're apparantely both morons.

However, there's massive precedent for this *working* and people/empires have been able to go on enormous conquering sprees while internally preventing rebellion in the past using such methods, and others. The most famous example is of course Rome.
 
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Gorton said:
Yes, i'm not saying it's easy. It should have been started under Sozin or Azulon, but to be honest they're apparantely both morons.
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Yeah. This method requires multi generational setups. People born should be under the impression that they're under the Fire Nation ie, Kori. But then, that same interlude shows that it doesn't really completely work because of 'reform' camps. Seriously, we need to get rid of that shit up, asap.

Gorton said:
However, there's massive precedent for this *working* and people/empires have been able to go on enormous conquering sprees while internally preventing rebellion in the past using such methods, and others. The most famous example is of course Rome.
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I, I honestly wouldn't use Rome here. Aside from a select few generals, Rome by the by has always been on the defensive during the last few centuries of it's life. Because of eh, overextending. They didn't have enough people to properly hold territories that they've conquered. They pretty much stopped expanding at 14 AD after their defeat from Arminius. Future emperors basically just wanted to get back their territories, not all of them successful.

Plus, another reason of preventing expansion was pretty much coups. Very very much coups, the Senate didn't want the army generals to have too much power and people that could be used to depose them. Which honestly is gonna be an issue here, as you outlined in your earlier post.

Tho of course, disregard my post if you're talking about the Republic. I'm pretty much just talking about the Empire.
 
It helps that even as a nation the EK is already far more fractured and independent than real life equivalents, to the point where two cities can have completely different legal systems and customs with only the barest form of cooperation. There is less a sense of nationalism and more a sense of "If we don't work together for now then we could be next." A bit like ancient Greece actually.
 
Alviam099 said:
Yeah. This method requires multi generational setups. People born should be under the impression that they're under the Fire Nation ie, Kori. But then, that same interlude shows that it doesn't really completely work because of 'reform' camps. Seriously, we need to get rid of that shit up, asap.


I, I honestly wouldn't use Rome here. Aside from a select few generals, Rome by the by has always been on the defensive during the last few centuries of it's life. Because of eh, overextending. They didn't have enough people to properly hold territories that they've conquered. They pretty much stopped expanding at 14 AD after their defeat from Arminius. Future emperors basically just wanted to get back their territories, not all of them successful.

Plus, another reason of preventing expansion was pretty much coups. Very very much coups, the Senate didn't want the army generals to have too much power and people that could be used to depose them. Which honestly is gonna be an issue here, as you outlined in your earlier post.

Tho of course, disregard my post if you're talking about the Republic. I'm pretty much just talking about the Empire.
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Well, since Roman expansionism was primarily under the Republic, I am talking about them xD

As you are no doubt aware, roman invasion generally was extremely tolerant toward everything, unless it was something that they specifically really didn't like - most conquered areas got to keep most of their traditions, religions, etc, as long as you followed some primary law and paid taxes you were able to do whatever, and of course there were many incentives toward being more roman/ joining the army and becoming a citizen after the reforms etc.
The leaders and elites were bribed extensively with roman goods e.g wine and other luxuries.
Along that note, generally roman traders would bring those luxuries to new areas before the armies, and bring them (the elites) to the point where they actively assisted roman conquest for such things.

Ulrad said:
It helps that even as a nation the EK is already far more fractured and independent than real life equivalents, to the point where two cities can have completely different legal systems and customs with only the barest form of cooperation. There is less a sense of nationalism and more a sense of "If we don't work together for now then we could be next." A bit like ancient Greece actually.
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Yes, this is my point exactly. They're only united because of the war. If we delve into comics and stuff, we actually see that the previous avatars supported a united EK regardless - see Kyoshi forming the Dai Li, obviously Roku's spiel, etc.
 
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Gorton said:
Well, since Roman expansionism was primarily under the Republic, I am talking about them xD
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Eh, generally when people talk about the Romans, it's usually the Roman Empire since their peak was about 150 AD. So, sorry for the confusion. The Republic really wasn't as big as the Empire was. If I were to compare it territory-wise, the Fire Nation right now is the Republic while the end-game for the EK venture is the Empire.

Assimilation depends on what's left. Really, the Romans made killing wherever they go their hobby.

To quote Tacitus "Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant"
They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a desert, they call it peace.
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But assimilation for what's left really went smoothly. In fact, majority of the rebellions were because some people weren't being given Roman citizenship to begin with.

Gorton said:
Yes, this is my point exactly. They're only united because of the war.
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It's not like the EK's special on this regard. Fire Nation's the same too, common enemy and all that jazz. They've just had the better start of a hundred years to it.
 
Alviam099 said:
It's not like the EK's special on this regard. Fire Nation's the same too, common enemy and all that jazz. They've just had the better start of a hundred years to it.
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The difference is that in the Firenation the country is quite firmly under the control of the Firelord (and to an extent the merchant houses) as one unified nation. The "Earth Kingdom" is far more like some sort of defensive alliance between independent small states than a true country, with the Earth King having close to no formal authority, little cultural unity between the parts and each province and city state being free to do whatever they want in regards to governance, lawmaking, military, trade, etc.

The only thing holding them together is the fear of the Firenation knocking on their door, kicking it in and setting them on fire. If that threat is removed or at least toned down enough to where people away from the front feel relatively safe then the regional rivalries and opportunists will likely cause people to try and make their moves. Not saying it will solve itself but the two nations are quite different with the EK being particularly vulnerable to internal strife. It's why pretty much every avatar after Kyoshi was cool with it becoming a proper nation and being for unification.
 
Alviam099 said:
Eh, generally when people talk about the Romans, it's usually the Roman Empire since their peak was about 150 AD. So, sorry for the confusion. The Republic really wasn't as big as the Empire was. If I were to compare it territory-wise, the Fire Nation right now is the Republic while the end-game for the EK venture is the Empire.

Assimilation depends on what's left. Really, the Romans made killing wherever they go their hobby.



But assimilation for what's left really went smoothly. In fact, majority of the rebellions were because some people weren't being given Roman citizenship to begin with.



It's not like the EK's special on this regard. Fire Nation's the same too, common enemy and all that jazz. They've just had the better start of a hundred years to it.
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I said the expansionism was primarily under the republic, and that is true. They took far more land during that period.

I definitely think the EK and FN are extremely different in that regard.
Let's be clear that the home regions of the FN are extremely peaceful to the point where you don't see any sort of guards or soldiers normally, extremely well-off, banditry and other things seem to have been eradicated entirely and they're so bizarrely effective at hunting down criminals that they somehow track and trick toph and katara somehow.
And this is after 100 years of war.

Due to the above, and the vastly superior communications and ability to travel the FN posseses, (canonical TRAINS, everyone, plus their ships which are fast af) every part of the FN is much more interconnected than the EK, much closer together, and clearly, the Fire Lord exerts direct power over all of it - all of these things are the exact opposite of the situation created in the EK.

On top of that, if we're talking unity, we have to remember that they've got some excellent propaganda to the point that they've convinced pretty much everyone of their course of action and have brilliant propaganda plays which we see in an episode to further that idea.
 
Gorton said:
I said the expansionism was primarily under the republic, and that is true. They took far more land during that period.
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Uh, there's a reason Rome is more recognized as the Roman Empire in textbooks. It had double the landmass of the Republic. It was way bigger.

EDIT: this Rome talk is pretty much derail at this point. Am dropping it.

Gorton said:
Due to the above, and the vastly superior communications and ability to travel the FN posseses, (canonical TRAINS, everyone, plus their ships which are fast af) every part of the FN is much more interconnected than the EK, much closer together, and clearly, the Fire Lord exerts direct power over all of it - all of these things are the exact opposite of the situation created in the EK.
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That's mainly because the EK stagnated, especially when it's kings decided to hole themselves in Ba Sing Se and never come out.

Really, not what I was saying at all. I was saying that the Fire Nation is the same case as the EK, they're only united because there's a war to begin with. If FN was so consolidated with their propaganda, Zuko's transition to power wouldn't have been that smooth.

Plus it's not like it's that connected. We know that towns not near the FN's capitol really aren't that industrialized with The Search.
 
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Alviam099 said:
Uh, there's a reason Rome is more recognized as the Roman Empire in textbooks. It had double the landmass of the Republic. It was way bigger.

EDIT: this Rome talk is pretty much derail at this point. Am dropping it.


That's mainly because the EK stagnated, especially when it's kings decided to hole themselves in Ba Sing Se and never come out.

Really, not what I was saying at all. I was saying that the Fire Nation is the same case as the EK, they're only united because there's a war to begin with. If FN was so consolidated with their propaganda, Zuko's transition to power wouldn't have been that smooth.

Plus it's not like it's that connected. We know that towns not near the FN's capitol really aren't that industrialized with The Search.
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Rome is not a derail here. And yes, you're right, and it's my bad: I miswrote. I was trying to say that proportionally to the size of the original nation, the republic took significantly more land than the empire did, which is why their ability to keep everything under control was pretty decent.


I mean, we don't know how the EK formed, or when. You can say they stagnated, but we really don't know anything to judge that on. Like I said, medieval era france is a good analogue for what we see: a country where the king doesn't even have the power to enforce his will outside his own personal domain.

And I again don't agree with the FN being the same as the EK in that regard. There are vast geopraphical distances involved in the EK, there are vast cultural differences too, as we saw in "The Great Divide" between two groups that were literally next to each other, etc etc.

In the FN, we see a nation that's extremely well connected by good roads, railways, good shipping. This contributes a great deal to the erosion of regional cultures, due to the easier and greater internal migration, and of course the ability to move goods further and cheaper.
I also don't see what a few rural towns have to do with the unity of a nation, either. There's a difference between having rural towns and 75% of your country being a rural town and the other 25% is one stupidly large city.

On the propaganda; well, it convinced everyone for a century. Also, we have to remember that this is a country that's been fed "divine right to rule" - Azula's words there with that same propaganda for a long time, coupled with the previous Fire Lord being debended and defeated by the avatar who is actively propping up this new Fire Lord and some military defeats. Even then, I haven't read the comics but I know there's some conspiracy against Zuko in them.

Then again I don't read the comics because they're utter garbage and I hope they're not taken as canon by people.
 
Information: Official Staff Communication
  • Staff Post
    • official staff communication Unfortunately, because I locked the thread I was compelled to go through it...

    I have to admit I am not exactly thrilled by how this thread is going. I have two primary concerns.

    First, there seems to be a faction of participants here whose behavior treads very close to - if not over - the line of Rule 2. I am not at all sanguine about this quest turning into the "we're going to be Hitler, but better" -fest that some of the participants seem to want it to be.

    Second, I am also concerned about the vitriolic behavior of some of the participants. This is a story, and it's not necessary to pull out the knives and try to stab each other to death. I would have handed out threadbans, but, well, it's been a week, so I think I've done enough of that.

    I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, though - for both the first issue and the second.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Yayy now I can cheer Kosm on again when I'm too lazy to go to the live!! Keep up your good work Kosm, I hope things are going well for ya and you're getting better! <33

    -Reaper (Gwyn)
     
    Regardless of your position on the war itself, the current plan is to become a popular alternative to Ozai. The War ministers daughter would be a good start, so long as we can make sure shes actually loyal to us, for example.
     
    RoninSword said:
    Akane is still a child. We sinply need to practice, ace up or sleeves, time needs to pass so Akane grows in strength.
    Also fix her bending etc.
    I dont have details for you other than that.
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    So there is no plan to depose Ozai.

    Let me throw some out:
    • Ally with the Avatar.
    • Assassination on the Day of Black Sun.
    • Track down Ursa and beg for her forgiveness. Hope to learn untraceable poison.
    • Run away and train in the woods nonstop to get stronger.
    • Beg Kosm to have Mitsuko be a waterbender and have her learn bloodbending.
     
    RadiantPhoenix said:
    So there is no plan to depose Ozai.

    Let me throw some out:
    • Ally with the Avatar.
    • Assassination on the Day of Black Sun.
    • Track down Ursa and beg for her forgiveness. Hope to learn untraceable poison.
    • Run away and train in the woods nonstop to get stronger.
    • Beg Kosm to have Mitsuko be a waterbender and have her learn bloodbending.
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    So, practically, just training. All other plans are not very feasible atm.
     
    Iroh remains someone capable of fighting Ozai 1v1. Especially when you consider Ozai has 0 idea about lightning redirection, and Zuko only didn't hit him with that in canon on purpose.

    Unfortunately Iroh also hates us right now. However Akane did learn the technique - in theory - and it remains an ace in the hole that Akane can use if necessary.
     
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