Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

Your troops take up their positions. Your forces keep their movements loose and ambiguous until the last moment, then quickly maneuver to form a perimeter around the approximate location of the rebel camp. You and Zhao give the commanders approval to begin closing in. Zhao gives a speech. It's mediocre.

Not if his relative is anything to go by. I still remember that "capture the moon" speech, so this Zhao's "I'd rather burn the forest to the heartwood, but the princess won't let me" shouldn't be anything to sneeze at.

On closer inspection, maybe the Zhao family are immigrants from the Narutoverse.
 
Zhao is THE poster child for rage-powered firebenders who inadvertently set important shit on fire.

This is a relative, so eh.

And about messing up, well, it will be his screw up, not our.
If he doesn't manage, that's his problem, we shouldn't and cannot go around holding his hand every time we're on a mission together.

( e: Mitsuko will get jealous. :p )
 
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Please tell that to good ol dad. I'm sure he'll be delighted to hear it

Doing everything to not displease our asshole dad:
1) won't work, because Akane isn't a psychopathic genocidal maniac.
2) kinda plays into his hand, cuz he either can point out what we did wrong by trying to emulate him or that we shouldn't try to suck up for him at all and forge our own will blah blah blah.

The reasoning here was: Zhao is apparently a competent commander.
We're a fifteen years old princess who lost her firebending to boot.
Going to the frontlines is dangerous, unnecessary and kinda doesn't let us hide the fact we've lost our firebending any longer.
We would be lucky if only Hua found out and either told or didn't to our dad. ( seriously, fuck Ozai and the horse he rides on... metaphorically )
If Zhao finds out, however
A fifteen years old princess with no commanding experience to speak of and who lost her firebending. We quickly stop being an asset and become a liability to get shoved off to the furthest reaches where sun don't shine.
Until and unless we establish at least some sort of good reputation before our little secret gets out, or we fix our problem.

If we went to the front and screwed up in front of everyone by some chance, we would be screwed even more than we are now.
If Zhao screws up and starts burning the forest around him for some reason, the worst we get is a convenient scapegoat who started to burn the forest despite our explicit wishes on the matter. With Hua as a witness.
Yeah, our dad won't like it. So?
He generally doesn't like anything we do at the moment.
 
Why is so much time being spent on deciphering Avatar philosophy? As far as I understand, in this case, the lack of firebending is probably the result of being unable to answer three simple questions (Who are you, Where are you heading, Why are you heading there). I don't think Avatar philosophy, which involves detachment and neutrality at its core, is going to help.
 
Why is so much time being spent on deciphering Avatar philosophy? As far as I understand, in this case, the lack of firebending is probably the result of being unable to answer three simple questions (Who are you, Where are you heading, Why are you heading there). I don't think Avatar philosophy, which involves detachment and neutrality at its core, is going to help.

Detachment and neutrality are the last three chakras dealing with spiritual enlightenment and somesuch.

The first four chakras are more down to earth psychotherapy dealing with positive and negative emotions, willpower, that sort of things. Akane is having two problems at the moment with the Earth chakra. In simple terms, she hasn't worked out that it deals with fear of death, accepting that everyone dies anyway, and learning to function despite it. She's pretty close though.

As for why we do this.... well, people voted for it, and the vote won?
It's one of the valid paths, and it gets us closer to understanding the Avatar's philosophy and either agree with it or vehemently disagree for valid reasons. And not, for example, because we're a Bond villain with flying fire ships or plans to steal the moon etc.
 
To be fair, they weren't stealing the moon; just it's earthly manifestation of its power- which was defenseless and could fit in a sack.

Not a great plan, moon, really ;)
 
To be fair, they weren't stealing the moon; just it's earthly manifestation of its power- which was defenseless and could fit in a sack.

Not a great plan, moon, really ;)

I mean, Zhao for some reason left Ocean alone while killing his twin, thus opening a can of whoopass with his name written on it.

So bad planning was going around on that day.

Except for Iroh. He apparently accomplished everything he wanted to.
 
Just as a heads up, my live schedule is going to be disrupted this week because I'm planning on being away Friday through Monday to spend Pride with some friends haha. I am not totally sure what days I will do my live sessions next week - I might do them earlier in the week than normal to reduce the delay, but I'm still deciding. Sorry for the trouble! Happy Pride Month!
 
So I'm nearing the end of Chapter 5 and looking at the remaining reading material. Considering this is a 140K ongoing story, I feel like this is a good point to raise some concerns and determine if I should stop before I waste more of my time or if the issue(s) I'm faced with have been resolved.

Frankly, Akane is unlikeable. Yes, she's internalized a truckload of terrible thought patterns and emotional mismanagement from her environment (and voters). Yes, she is nice to Azula and Zuko just like every single fanfiction OC ever. Yes, she's "pragmatic" in that pretentious masturbatory way that voters like to think they are when they're just being douchy Hard (Wo)Men. No, I do not think that's unfair, because I've seen the fiction.live's idea of thought and commentary and it may as well be a 4chan board. Moreover, I've seen this same story done before in countless fanfictions by writers of exactly the same mind as these players.

All of these elements are understood. But there is a very clear dileniation between "understandable" characters and "characters that invite me to empathize with them." Shockingly, I don't much get off on reading or voting for a protagonist whose controllers feel the need to exercise petty power over fictional abuse victims by telling them they have less value than their escapist fantasy, then trying to justify it in the forum as Akane being "not evil or good, just a flawed character" like every first semester philosopher who thinks they've escaped all considerations of morality. The excuse of "playing to the character" is equally disingenuous and cowardly, because the character's personality is only semi-solid, responding to new input: that's called being a character, not a slice of cardboard. Akane is being a shallow edgelord fantasy because that's what the players want her to be. Period.

And evidently, the QM doesn't either, because the narrative all but breaks its spine bending over backward and then around the waist to tell the reader how shitty the protagonist's behavior is through the reactions of other characters while simultaneously not doing it too ungently so as not to upset the players invested in being shitty to the point they'll rationalize it however they can.

And don't even get me started on the nonsense that is the Ursa debacle. Somehow, Ursa went from being a flawed mother who made the understandable but ultimately unjust decision to favor Zuko over a child she deemed violently unstable and lost (which, by the way, was not a wrong assessment - Azula was an obvious psychopath) into...whatever the fuck she's become here. Nothing screams "fanfiction cliche" to me more than the Evil Mom Who The OC Hates go-to, and boy did the votes decide to run with it. If we're arguing that events need to happen as they do because of characters being established as who they are, there's no evidence to justify Ursa being this bizarre dichotomous split of "constant fuck-up of a mother who is not evil but is just terrible and deserves scorn" and "Narcissistic and self-centered liar."

I know narcissists. I've lived with them. I've been abused by them. I know the checklist for spotting them. And I know when characters are being twisted into something they're not, with vague handwaves of Zuko's biased perspective that justify nothing. So this complete assassination of a character aggravates me. Deeply. And that's without getting into the fact that there is zero evidence in the A:TLA setting that homophobia is an issue unless we consult out-of-series materials - and no, Imperial Japan coding is not the same as evidence, if we're assuming this is a more western influenced Imperial Japan that would give a fuck - so Ursa being painted as a homophobe purely for the sake of artificially creating tension for the (fetish-driven) gay protagonist between her and her EEEEVIL STUPID MOM reads like I'm consuming a fucking middle schooler's secret diary instead of a real address of homophobia or complicated paternal-child relationships.

I enjoy the QM's writing, no doubt. They're terribly good at running a quest despite active self-sabotage by the players. But my investment in seeing Akane succeed ends when it becomes clear she's just another Hard Man fantasy instead of a realized character with range. Does that change, or should I simply move on?

EDIT: As an additional note to the QM - you've done very well, for the most part, and hopefully this critique will not discourage you overmuch. Clearly you've enjoyed writing the quest up to the point it's reached, and I don't desire to take that from you.
 
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And that's without getting into the fact that there is zero evidence in the A:TLA setting that homophobia is an issue unless we consult out-of-series materials

While I think you make some pretty good criticisms of how those chapters had gone, I'm going to have to do a "Well acshually" here.

While I guess you can consider the Legend of Korra comics out-of-series, Turf Wars briefly goes over the history of the four main cultures' viewpoints regarding homosexuality. For most of Fire Nation history, it was fairly tolerant towards different romantic relationships, but Sozin criminalized non-heterosexual relationships and that wasn't reversed until Zuko became Firelord.
 
While I think you make some pretty good criticisms of how those chapters had gone, I'm going to have to do a "Well acshually" here.

While I guess you can consider the Legend of Korra comics out-of-series, Turf Wars briefly goes over the history of the four main cultures' viewpoints regarding homosexuality. For most of Fire Nation history, it was fairly tolerant towards different romantic relationships, but Sozin criminalized non-heterosexual relationships and that wasn't reversed until Zuko became Firelord.
I would consider that extraneous material, yes. While I enjoy reading expanded universe books like anyone else, their presence is of optional concern to my reading of the actual two series unless they play a direct role in the plots of those series.

One can use them to argue for institutionalized homophobia in the Fire Nation, sure. But I'm not particularly invested in giving that argument credit when the story has already gone AU even before the butterflies came into effect. Plus, there's been arguments in-thread that the books shouldn't be used to argue story elements, so I'm also following that train of thought to its conclusion.
 
So I'm nearing the end of Chapter 5 and looking at the remaining reading material. Considering this is a 140K ongoing story, I feel like this is a good point to raise some concerns and determine if I should stop before I waste more of my time or if the issue(s) I'm faced with have been resolved.

Frankly, Akane is unlikeable. Yes, she's internalized a truckload of terrible thought patterns and emotional mismanagement from her environment (and voters). Yes, she is nice to Azula and Zuko just like every single fanfiction OC ever. Yes, she's "pragmatic" in that pretentious masturbatory way that voters like to think they are when they're just being douchy Hard (Wo)Men. No, I do not think that's unfair, because I've seen the fiction.live's idea of thought and commentary and it may as well be a 4chan board. Moreover, I've seen this same story done before in countless fanfictions by writers of exactly the same mind as these players.

All of these elements are understood. But there is a very clear dileniation between "understandable" characters and "characters that invite me to empathize with them." Shockingly, I don't much get off on reading or voting for a protagonist whose controllers feel the need to exercise petty power over fictional abuse victims by telling them they have less value than their escapist fantasy, then trying to justify it in the forum as Akane being "not evil or good, just a flawed character" like every first semester philosopher who thinks they've escaped all considerations of morality. The excuse of "playing to the character" is equally disingenuous and cowardly, because the character's personality is only semi-solid, responding to new input: that's called being a character, not a slice of cardboard. Akane is being a shallow edgelord fantasy because that's what the players want her to be. Period.

And evidently, the QM doesn't either, because the narrative all but breaks its spine bending over backward and then around the waist to tell the reader how shitty the protagonist's behavior is through the reactions of other characters while simultaneously not doing it too ungently so as not to upset the players invested in being shitty to the point they'll rationalize it however they can.

And don't even get me started on the nonsense that is the Ursa debacle. Somehow, Ursa went from being a flawed mother who made the understandable but ultimately unjust decision to favor Zuko over a child she deemed violently unstable and lost (which, by the way, was not a wrong assessment - Azula was an obvious psychopath) into...whatever the fuck she's become here. Nothing screams "fanfiction cliche" to me more than the Evil Mom Who The OC Hates go-to, and boy did the votes decide to run with it. If we're arguing that events need to happen as they do because of characters being established as who they are, there's no evidence to justify Ursa being this bizarre dichotomous split of "constant fuck-up of a mother who is not evil but is just terrible and deserves scorn" and "Narcissistic and self-centered liar."

I know narcissists. I've lived with them. I've been abused by them. I know the checklist for spotting them. And I know when characters are being twisted into something they're not, with vague handwaves of Zuko's biased perspective that justify nothing. So this complete assassination of a character aggravates me. Deeply. And that's without getting into the fact that there is zero evidence in the A:TLA setting that homophobia is an issue unless we consult out-of-series materials - and no, Imperial Japan coding is not the same as evidence, if we're assuming this is a more western influenced Imperial Japan that would give a fuck - so Ursa being painted as a homophobe purely for the sake of artificially creating tension for the (fetish-driven) gay protagonist between her and her EEEEVIL STUPID MOM reads like I'm consuming a fucking middle schooler's secret diary instead of a real address of homophobia or complicated paternal-child relationships.

I enjoy the QM's writing, no doubt. They're terribly good at running a quest despite active self-sabotage by the players. But my investment in seeing Akane succeed ends when it becomes clear she's just another Hard Man fantasy instead of a realized character with range. Does that change, or should I simply move on?

EDIT: As an additional note to the QM - you've done very well, for the most part, and hopefully this critique will not discourage you overmuch. Clearly you've enjoyed writing the quest up to the point it's reached, and I don't desire to take that from you.

If this is your interpretation of what's happening in general and Akane's character in particular, then no, I don't think you will enjoy reading further.

It's not me saying that "you didn't like mah waifu so go away now bad kid", it's just... I think you'll just aggravate yourself more.

About Ursa. By my reading, she wasn't homophobic. At least, that wasn't the reason for the conflict at that juncture.

Basically, homosexual relationship are punishable by death. In this universe, for the Fire Nation, it's canon, and was explained. ( or will be explained further in the quest, maybe you just haven't reached that yet? ) So it was framed as one of those ( maybe not so ) misguided attempts to protect Akane.
 
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So I'm nearing the end of Chapter 5 and looking at the remaining reading material.
So I will say, there doesn't to me seem to be much more specifically like her mother, and in the lastest updates Akane does seem to be trying to talk herself into something like sanity, which you might find interesting (e.g. she sums up trying to figure out some philosophy with "You are not becoming enlightened fast enough."), but she largely does remain very unlikeable so far, at least in my opinion. If having your protagonist being likable is something important to you, yeah, this might not be for you depending on how it continues from the lastest update.

Myself I have a problem not when the protagonist is unlikeable, but when the author clearly thinks they are likable while being terrible, eg, when the author is unlikeable. Here it's pretty clear that not the case here, so I'm good, but if seeing a terrible person being terrible isn't your jam that's understandable.

(Not that it matters for this, but I never read the mother as being a bad person, just someone in a terrible situation where all her options lead to someone she cares about getting hurt. By the end I was reading it as her being terrified of Akane, not hating her)
 
So I will say, there doesn't to me seem to be much more specifically like her mother, and in the lastest updates Akane does seem to be trying to talk herself into something like sanity, which you might find interesting (e.g. she sums up trying to figure out some philosophy with "You are not becoming enlightened fast enough."), but she largely does remain very unlikeable so far, at least in my opinion. If having your protagonist being likable is something important to you, yeah, this might not be for you depending on how it continues from the lastest update.

Myself I have a problem not when the protagonist is unlikeable, but when the author clearly thinks they are likable while being terrible, eg, when the author is unlikeable. Here it's pretty clear that not the case here, so I'm good, but if seeing a terrible person being terrible isn't your jam that's understandable.

(Not that it matters for this, but I never read the mother as being a bad person, just someone in a terrible situation where all her options lead to someone she cares about getting hurt. By the end I was reading it as her being terrified of Akane, not hating her)
It's fine if the protagonist is a terrible person - it's not fine if I don't care what happens to them. That includes positive or negative outcomes. But thanks - that's helpful.
 
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