Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

taliation.[/spoiler]

If you are going to continue this as a quest i think communicating to the players the general theme of each route and then having a revote of the iroh or scar zuko vote would be best.

A quest is a joint attempt to enjoy a good story experience. And stripping players of agency and power and blind intrigue quests tend to salt the ground hard.

If pkayers and GM are not enjoying due to communication problems then solving it as best as possible would be good.

And avoiding intrrupting high stakes votes without clear cut Word of God and character 4th wall breaking diffrences set would be best going forward.
 
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I say keep going with the story as it is. If it doesn't work on anonkun, move the quest somewhere else. Your storytelling is too good to let shitheads demand you cater to them.
 
There's a serious reason for short vote times on fiction.live: people can set up dummy accounts for voting really easily, and this becomes a problem in larger more popular quests. The longer a vote is open, the more likely that someone in the losing side will get frustrated and spin up some proxy or cognito mode window and vote a few more times to balance it out, and then you get 200 votes instead of 50.

obviously the solution is to move to SV where harassing the author directly and calling people "namefags" will just get you banned and only actual users can vote, with complex anti-sockpuppet software that has regularly caught votestuffing before :V

Jokes aside the format doesn't work well for how kosm writes, I don't think.
 
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obviously the solution is to move to SV where harassing the author directly and calling people "namefags" will just get you banned and only actual users can vote, with complex anti-sockpuppet software that has regularly caught votestuffing before :V
Whilst I mostly agree with you, for all its faults fiction.live does let a QM churn out their content at a pretty high rate, with fast votes being called and resolved quickly to help move things along. In a less serious quest where you just want people to decide how many hats your wizard is going to steal from the defeated gnome warriors before moving on, having an answer in 60 seconds (5, strapped to your head and beard in a pentagonal format to boost your demonology stat, obviously) is much more convenient.
 
I love this story and it might be best to move it over here and look at it with a new set of eyes.
At this point, the voters are at the point where they are getting pretty rabid and nasty judging by all the news from fellow SVers.
No matter what happens, the readers will support your work and your continued writing.
 
Whilst I mostly agree with you, for all its faults fiction.live does let a QM churn out their content at a pretty high rate, with fast votes being called and resolved quickly to help move things along. In a less serious quest where you just want people to decide how many hats your wizard is going to steal from the defeated gnome warriors before moving on, having an answer in 60 seconds (5, strapped to your head and beard in a pentagonal format to boost your demonology stat, obviously) is much more convenient.

I don't think the format would work well for Kosm's style of writing, no. SV is deliberately slower.
 
I mean, if she wanted to move it here it could work and I honestly think there'd be less stress, but although there's nothing stopping a really fast vote it's not usually done. Ultimately it's whatever she feels is most comfortable for her as a writer; ending it, making it a fic, keeping it on live, or moving it here, or whatever other option.

I don't think a retcon is a good idea.
 
Also I don't agree with what Kosm thinks is the Golden Ending, since Mitsuko's gone for some arcs in that one.

I think that deserting with Mitsuko and Iroh is the real favorable choice in the questers' eyes.
 
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I can't see folks handling such an arc well as a quest arc.
*We Stand In Salt flashbacks*

Yeah....

I mean, it certainly has great potential and I'm a sucker for deep character growth. But the playerbase would have to make the right choices, while at the same time being reminded on what could have been...

We could give it a try though. Again, sounds interesting. I'd read it.

Another retcon probably isn't a good idea, but if it ends up happening lowering the punishment tier only for a bit could work. Ozai disowning Akane could be an option. Ozai would still have leverage over her via her siblings, she'd have failed to live up to her ideals and fucked up royaly (dinging her will and fire), It'd probably cause issues with her relation with Azula. And she'd have to face her assignment/life from the bottom of society and climb her way up, with nothing to her name except maybe Mitsuko.

Edit: That could aim for the similar kind of arc, albeit a little less dark/punishing/powerless/ect.
 
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I participate in the quest while it's live and I just want to say that moving the quest here will only succeed in alienating the voterbase and causing intense frustration regardless of what you guys decide to do to Akane, for one because it wouldn't be "our" Akane anymore among other things, that is what I expect the sentiment to be anyway. In the case that it continues I believe it would be best to either write it as fanfiction without voter input or if it stays on the site to give voters control over specifics while deciding the big lines yourself.

You know that story about how you shouldn't pick up baby birds because the smell you leave on them supposedly makes their parents reject them? That would be Akane.
 
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First of all, I didn't read the "next arc" spoiler, since I want to experience the story together with Akane. However, going from the reactions of the other posters I agree that if "it doesn't get worse" is the best option again and again, it will be extremely hard to swallow.

See it this way: Because we're invested in Akane, the stages of grief apply to us as well*. Once things cool down and voters are over denial and anger, they'll try bargaining. They'll look for any chance to make things less bad, because the alternative is depression. If you repeatedly strike down their hopes of at least some tangible progress, you'll have to deal with a depressed voterbase. Some will drop the quest, some will vote for Akane to commit suicide or give up.

I think there's absolutely no reason to retcon the chapter - that would only lead to more salt since from their perspective, it obviously seems to work. But my advice is that, if the next arc is a long and arduous recovery, show that Akane is recovering, that there's a light at the end of the tunnel.


*Yes, it's merely a model and doesn't apply universally, but it's a decent guideline.
 
Understandable, I think you really should take some time off and come back to all this with fresh eyes and a fresher mind. And move on from this and though its understandable that you want to tell a tale of tragedy and struggle there should be some triumphs that make it worth it else the questers would just feel bad about it all.

Like yes you say Ozai is gaslighting us but what he said actually hurts the playerbase cuz it feels like a "aha Im calling you out specifically" you know? And since we're all so invested people will react. Since at the moment most if not all of Akane's bases have cracked really horribly it wont really feel great to keep hammering in the whole suffering stuff.

Im rambling. What I want to say is, you should rest and de-stress and look at it again when you're better. And hopefully we should move on and try to vary things up because pure suffering is really not good for quests, we need to make noticeable progress for our investment else it will all just feel depressing and questers will either give up or start taking extreme actions.
 
That sounds amazing for a story, but sustained losses and failure with no serious victories would be really, really hard for a Quest. The problem is that an invested audience of a story would sympathise and feel bad with Akane, but it wouldn't be a personal feeling - there's a bit of a gap. But as a PC, Akane is a direct stand-in for the players. Any loss she takes is one the players take - your chat has exploded into mountains of salt precisely because as a heavily-invested audience, this massive loss she's just taken is a loss the chat has just taken, and they're feeling similarly defensive/hurt. (It should be noted, this does you great credit as an author.)

Yeah, I can see this as being a fantastic story arc, but I don't see it as being enjoyable to play. Especially since a story arc is something that you can read through in one sitting while a quest (or slow serialised fiction) can make it grind you down week after week. And because it's a quest, you can't guarantee that you'll deliver story beats when appropriate.

Quests are weird beasts, half-story half-games, the players are random kitchen staffs trying to take the dish into random and sometimes opposing directions, and the QM is the chef not only responsible that the dish remains coherent, but also that the kitchen staff remains happy cooking lest they sabotage* the dish. Whereas a regular story is a dish where the chef controls everything.

But hey, sometimes the kitchen staff comes up with really good ideas and take the dish into a new and exciting direction.

*And often no intentionally, low effort vote after reading too fast would be such a case.
 
I'm not sure voting in general is suited for the character arc that Akane is supposed to go through (assuming no retcon), so moving it here wouldn't solve the problem. Echoing others here, questing needs wins... and it'd be a long, painful arc with few of them.

Throwing out a few ideas:

You could do chapters of pre-written interlude, with no votes in-between - just a few votes before the interlude begins to see what direction people want to push Akane in. Don't give players responsibility for the emotional state of the character. After that, move back to standard format. Might be less satisfying, but there's no reason the interlude has to be a short one.

You could also do a hybrid, where voters simply decide the direction of successes and failures - not severity. As someone else mentioned: "light" choices.

Another option, much harder, is you keep giving Akane wins on the physical world, the "glory and conquest" bit, while denying her wins in her emotional state. You really have to throw questors a lot of bones if you go that route. But it'd be tough.
 
You could also do a hybrid, where voters simply decide the direction of successes and failures - not severity. As someone else mentioned: "light" choices.

Something I've seen and liked with this is at the outset of a battle or so on, have a vote for which thing goes wrong. Or what consequences there are. It changes it from voting on various strategies / choices that may or may not have negatives, to accepting that something is going to go wrong, but being able to choose how it goes wrong, and by implication, which things you don't lose or don't get hurt by.

And frontloading it instead of having the negative thing as a surprise at the end of as egment can kinda cushion the impact a bit?
 
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The thing about character-driven quests is that that player-input is constrained by characterization and character development. The players can't vote for Akane to drop this whole princess business and start an ostrichleopard farm, for example. It can be stifling to players used to playing blank-slate types if a QM has already decided on a character arc, theme, and plot.

Communication can also be an issue. The QM's understanding of Akane doesn't necessarily match the player's understanding of Akane. A novel can be subtle with characterization. The protagonist's decisions and actions can be foreshadowed with tiny clues hidden throughout the novel. When a quest does that, you run into problems because the players need to understand the protagonist in order to make informed decisions. When Akane's actions don't match the intention of the winning vote, players get angry. They feel railroaded. In novels, you could argue that the author is dead. Not so with quests. In quests the author is very much not dead.

This makes running complex, nuanced protagonists difficult, both for the QM to characterize them and for players to understand them. That's why most quests are more about exploring the setting and the plot than exploring the protagonist.

My point is, maybe a quest isn't the right format to tell Akane's story.

If you do continue the story as a quest, I recommend making clear what the consequences of votes are in terms of both plot and character-development. Something like,

Azula is being uppity. What do?

[x] Gently admonish her. [Neutral choice]
[x] Playfully admonish her. [Grants "Playful" trait]
[x] Let it go. [+1 to "Passive" trait.]
[x] Slap her. [+1 to "Violent" trait. +1 to "Unhinged" trait. -2 to "Best sister" trait.]
[x] Kill her. [Choice locked due to "Best sister" trait.]

Well, maybe not like this, because you'd need to keep a giant character sheet and that seems like a lot of work; not to mention making the quest more mechanics-heavy than you might be comfortable with. But I do think the quest needs to make clear to the players who Akane is and what their votes will do to her character.
 
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Some additional thoughts.

Sometimes you want players to solve issues, you give out clues in the text and it's up to the players to piece it together to make it work. There might even be several solutions and there are fallbacks if they fail the first time. It's just an obstacle to navigate through.

Sometimes, players can write the story into a corner, in which case a solution would be that instead of "solving an issue", the choice/vote is where to take the story. You offer general directions that you think would lead to nice story arcs afterwards, and the main character executes the correct sequence of actions that would lead to that destination. It's kind of the handholding mode when you need to intervene more heavily, obviously, when presenting the vote, you'd need to make it not totally obvious that it's handholding.

That is, sometimes you let the players stir the ship, and sometimes you give them a choice of destination and stir it yourself. There's a continuum player agency vs handholding between the two, and I think it's a decent approach to QMing yourself out of difficult situations.
 
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I've read the quest thread and what jumps out is the almost dismissive view of Ozai.

He is the end game boss monster. His political and personal power is almost unsurpassable.


Akane is still young no matter how strong she presents herself. It's rather obvious in hindsight she had large blind spots and overestimated herself.

Then because the quest is form her perspective the questers internalized that without thinking that she could be an unreliable narrator.
 
I'm not sure voting in general is suited for the character arc that Akane is supposed to go through (assuming no retcon), so moving it here wouldn't solve the problem. Echoing others here, questing needs wins... and it'd be a long, painful arc with few of them.

Throwing out a few ideas:

You could do chapters of pre-written interlude, with no votes in-between - just a few votes before the interlude begins to see what direction people want to push Akane in. Don't give players responsibility for the emotional state of the character. After that, move back to standard format. Might be less satisfying, but there's no reason the interlude has to be a short one.
Yeah, the immediate part of the next arc at the very least seems like it would be fairly painful to actually play. Once Akane has found her feet a bit and is actually doing things I think it would be alright (as long as people know what the arc is about), but Akane's current emotional state does not look like a great questing state.

Getting to something positive that the players can be more positively engaged with is important. Heck, something as minor as, idk, Akane rescues a tiger cub so the players can think happy thoughts about cute kitties could possibly work (as an example).
 
I have a few thoughts. If you're open to retcons, make the players earn them. Give retcon coins to good decisions. Earn enough retcon coins and the players get to retcon distastrous decisions. This has multiple benefits:

- The players won't feel they can complain their way to retcons. No, retcons are part of the ruleset and the rules are the rules. Never mind that the QM can change the rules whenever he/she wants.
- Rewarding retcon coins based on "good" decisions will allow the QM to signal to the players what a good decision entails. This allows more QM control over the plot.
- Players feel they have more control over the plot because they have the power to change it if something goes wrong
- Since retcon coins are a limited resource, players tend to allow disastrous decisions to stand in order to hoard retcon coins for crucial moments.

So, instead of saying you'll retcon the Zuko scarring decision, give them 10 retcon coins. Make them decide whether to use those coins or bank them.
 
Given the sort of direction you mentioned wanting to take the story, if you choose to keep Deep Red as a quest, I think that you might want to look into a voting format more like the one on Petals of Titanium.

Player input on the direction of a dark/depressing story can work - but having an additional layer of abstraction, where they vote explicitly on the narrative beats, as opposed to on the main characters actions, does a ton to mitigate the salt.

So for the last vote, for example, you could have framed it by having players pick between:

Akane attempts to rebel against Ozai with Iroh's help, but they are driven off and must go into hiding in the Earth Kingdom, defeated and hunted.

vs.

Akane bends her will under pressure from Ozai, and scars Zuko's face. Having her will shattered, her firebending is reduced to a tremendously weak state, where she can only produce lukewarm dark red fire.

This sort of framing is especially useful in "no win scenarios", where having the choice of what to lose framed as a narrative makes players a lot more willing to engage with the story as a story, instead of as a puzzle with a theoretical "optimal" solution.
 
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Okay, in the past I've been against accusations of railroading, but I've been convinced by new evidence. Time and again in the last chapter and the end of the one before, the voters made a choice that the QM didn't like, so the QM made them pick again. And again. And again. Until finally they'd picked the exact combination of choices that the QM wanted, and only then did the QM decide that their choice was binding.

I'm not leaving the thread right now. I don't believe in leaving petulant "I'm leaving!" posts, so if I'm complaining about something it means that I haven't been driven off by it yet. But I wasn't having fun this chapter.

Several times, I caught myself skimming when I felt like the QM was about to hit the reset button again, making me feel the impulse to just skim to the final verdict. Then I stopped, thought to myself "no, I might miss something actually important in the middle," went back and reread whatever I'd skimmed, and then found that I couldn't call anything I'd just reread "significant." It was just undone after the QM got the answer he wanted to hear.

So now it feels like there's no stakes. Events will happen, and whether those events are good or bad will have been little effected by whatever was voted for. They voted to work with Iroh to stop Ozai, which was a good idea, if a risky one. That got undone. They voted to attack Ozai outright, which was a bad idea. That got undone. There're no stakes.

That all might not be true, but it is true that I feel that way right now.
 
Another option, much harder, is you keep giving Akane wins on the physical world, the "glory and conquest" bit, while denying her wins in her emotional state. You really have to throw questors a lot of bones if you go that route. But it'd be tough.
… to be honest, I personally would absolutely hate that.

I, and probably many others are probably more interested in Akane's emotional state then the physical "glory, conquest" stuff.

I'd rather fail at conquering anything and not gain a spec of glory than have Akane not be able to make emotional strides.

Right now Akane's mental and emotional wellbeing are absolutely fundamental for me.

Heck I am all for the power loss/character development arc being proposed by Kosm, because that is what I love about stories and the rare quest that tries to delve into it well, that type of decision and struggle is one that I enjoy in quests but almost never get to actually do. because of course the majority never wants it even if it excites me.

On the other hand, most people aren't really good at this type of character development and I can see some voters completely screwing up the character development arc because they don't see it as such but instead try to win the less meaningful secondary phyiscal battle rather than score a win on the primary emotional battle. Or underestimate how much the little decisions we make would effect the character or define who they are in the future. I like subtle characterization.

It probably also complicates things that I am not of the mind frame of "needing lots of wins to stay invested". This burning feeling that this quest has given me over the last update, the utter loss of both my ideals and Akane's has probably made me more invested than ever, and rather than burnt out, the connection to the character, the frustration of the situation, and now the prospect of possibly being able to slowly build her up again, gives me a feeling that promises a future satisfaction far greater than what most people say that questers want.

In depth character stuff in quests is something I am passionate about and… it is just sad that it seems whenever it is an option the advice is "yeah don't do that".

Especially since Kosm is one of the few people that I strongly feel could make it work. I mean in her other quest, not to be linked due to nsfw nature of it, she literally has an austic and heavily mentally abused main character that struggles with those things, turning what would potentially be a power fantasy (they have the gamer power after all), into a character piece, where despite the great dangers ahead of them (including an antagonist that is on their way to ascending to a creator god), the greatest thing to overcome is currently themselves. That quest is nearly 600K words hasn't fallen apart, the voter base is actually less salty than Deep Red's (though they can still be pretty salty at times :V).

Having this type of character development/power loss arc from a QM that can pull that off is a rare treat.

But sometimes it is best to accept that my mindset makes me a minority as a player. :V
Okay, in the past I've been against accusations of railroading, but I've been convinced by new evidence. Time and again in the last chapter and the end of the one before, the voters made a choice that the QM didn't like, so the QM made them pick again. And again. And again. Until finally they'd picked the exact combination of choices that the QM wanted, and only then did the QM decide that their choice was binding.
What the hell are you talking about? This chapter there is no option that was forced to be voted on again and again and again. I was there for the live.

There was a literally tied vote on going with Iroh or obeying Ozai that I am 90% convinced people were sockpuppetting to force a tie, then the tie breaker (though kosm themselves noted that having Ozai speak up there was a mistake in their last post, so they note that they consider themselves having messed up there), then gave options to back out of scarring Zuko in the Agni Kai, which people didn't do, and where to burn him (which had an option to disobey still). If her goal was to make people back out of the scarring by giving them two additional chances to back out then the QM failed in that regard. That would be a railroad failure. Similarily with the Azula dual and burning her. Kosm gave us a chance to back out from our refusal or to try to go for the refusal a different way, and we were ultimately the ones who failed because people voted to compare him to Azulon (Which actually was apparently a joke vote by the person who originally put it up, but then caught traction by a bunch of other people caught up in the heat of the moment). They gave us the option to go a different route at narratively appropriate times and both times we didn't. This isn't even waiting until we make the choice that they want because the voterbase made the same choice every time.

The only other thing was the clarification on the idea on whether we'd try to keep our hands clean of Ozai's policies or not, because one of the options was unclear, and it was clear by reading chat that people didn't understand that we'd be trying to curry favor by looking for those who dislike Ozai's policies if we tried to avoid his senseless killings. The original version of that had people thinking that we wouldn't be working to curry favor to anyone with that option at all.

This is extremely different from what you describe.
 
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