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Deep Red (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

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Personally, I like this low point. Both in the sense of a quest, and a story. Akane has indeed lost her way, as someone said earlier. She needs to find it again. Relight the sun. And, you know what? If that means going not only rogue during exile, but full Ryuko Matoi? Then goddamnit, she should do it. But that's just looking at the narrative.

@kosm, if you want to take a break, go ahead. If you want to delete and start over, go ahead. It's ultimately your work. That said, I hope you don't do that latter part. I like where this is going. Failure makes the final victory all the sweeter.
 
Tnoz said:
This is honestly the thing that seals it as railroady. 2-5 minutes of panic voting and no meaningful discussions, and then being told "but you chose this". It's really cheap.
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But it also makes it more realistic. It is not as if Akane has 5 hours to mentally debate while Ozai patiently waits. The point is to overwhelm Akane with a big decision with no time.
 
kosm said:
Honestly I'm just going to delete this again and then not come back to this quest for a couple weeks. At this point I don't know what I'm doing anymore and the pressure is getting to me. Thank you to everyone supporting me. I'm very sorry for the trouble.
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… I kind of think that you should keep this.

As much as I personally don't like the direction it is going, this was the players vote across four different events (first time vote whether or not to follow through, second time after the hesitation, third time with taking the fall, fourth time with being able to vote no to scar Zuko).

This is totally on the players for not backing out, and the consequences make sense.

Ozai was always an abusive controlling person and we knew it. The tagline of the quest was always that we think he was going to kill us.

Ozai had wanted us to bend in our will before. Chats greatest misunderstanding was the underestimating the severity of that. Not getting that he didn't want us to bend.

He wanted us to break so he could mold us into his image. And here we broke. This is the victory that Ozai wanted.

This is just overwhelming salt from the playerbase because they didn't like the result.

It is not that it is bad writing, it is that players are upset and complaining that things didn't turn out the way they wanted it to. Many will always complain at the quest master for giving their actions consequences. Of course those who don't like the result would blame you, the QM, because you are an easier target than the players as a whole. The only way to avoid salt is to not have Akane's choices have meaningful negative consequences ever, and that would ruin both quest and story.

Furthermore, if you bend to players telling you to retcon things and change things here, they'll smell blood in the water, and pressure and bully you whenever you try to give them consequences even more than they already are.

There are times when you should stop and redo things because the scene wasn't appropriate, but this was: This was an appropriate result of the consequences of the voter bases' decision.
 
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I think it'd be pretty interesting to watch Akane try and piece herself back together on the warfront- hopefully she can find glory there to redeem herself in the eyes of Ozai, though I'm thinking there s a good chance he won't recall Akane until Zuko fucks up catching Wang, replacing Azula or being the even bigger bad behind her/ at the same time.

This is pretty exciting imo. Kinda hope there s no rewrite, but I'd like it either way
 
Honestly, if you want the story to go in such a way that akane did not scar zuko, I think an authors vote is worth more than 3 votes, which if you had voted, would have had you go to iroh.
 
WinterLantern said:
I think it'd be pretty interesting to watch Akane try and piece herself back together on the warfront- hopefully she can find glory there to redeem herself in the eyes of Ozai, though I'm thinking there s a good chance he won't recall Akane until Zuko fucks up catching Wang, replacing Azula or being the even bigger bad behind her/ at the same time.

This is pretty exciting imo. Kinda hope there s no rewrite, but I'd like it either way
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Redeeming herself to Ozai is the wrong thing to do. In my eyes, full on rejection of Ozai and everything he stands for is optimal. Everything in Akane's life has been dictated and shaped by that man, up to and including her perfectionist streak and focus on grace and poise. Akane needs time away, amongst the commoners as one of them, to let her form an identity of her own. She's overdue for a teenage rebellion, and there's a reason I said Ryuko Matoi instead of Satsuki Kiruyin.
 
kosm said:
Honestly I'm just going to delete this again and then not come back to this quest for a couple weeks. At this point I don't know what I'm doing anymore and the pressure is getting to me. Thank you to everyone supporting me. I'm very sorry for the trouble.
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Hey, take the time you need, and get your head straight. And don't let the Anons get to you. They are always salty and toxic, just slightly more so than usual.
 
God damn that was some intense shit. Really sells me that you are damn good at storytelling.

Thus, i trust you in whatever you chose to do with the story.

Also, because I can't get this out of my head:
Have you ever seen the death of a sun?
 
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Ozai told us that he didn't want us associating with Iroh. We continued to associate with Iroh. Multiple times. We pointed out that Zuko is Iroh's weak point to Ozai. Ozai is Ozai. It's not railroading that he's a manipulative asshole and that our actions have serious, life-changing consequences.

Really, what this proves is that we need to get the hell away from him, for as long as we can. And hey look at that he just gave us an opportunity to be literally on another continent, with Mitsuko, for months.

We can recover from this, as long as we stop pitching a fit because we hate our choices.
 
Kosm just came out of fucking nowhere and started posting a amazing avatar fic
really makes you wonder
 
Let me just say, I loved the latest updates.

I would feel different if I was a player, if I had put myself in Akane's shoes and failed so very miserably. From a narrative standpoint, though, this was amazing. I was sitting on the edge of my seat, deeply engaged in what was happening.

Akane is the victim of abuse. She's been abused her entire life. And she reacted to his abuse by clinging desperately to a facade of perfection. Never showing weakness, never showing any flaws, becoming strong enough to weather the blows, trying to roll with the punches, trying to please her abuser; anything she could think of to endure the abuse.

That's what she's been doing. Enduring. Enduring and trying to mitigate some of the damage Ozai has been inflicting on her younger siblings. She's fought back, but passively and behind Ozai's back.

This situation was never going to last. Ozai was always going to escalate because he's not satisfied until all of his children are either broken or him. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else. And that's not railroading, that's the reality of having an abusive monster as a father.

What Akane has been doing didn't fix anything. Was never going to fix anything. That's the lesson Akane needed to learn.

How do you deal with abuse? How do you get out of an abusive situation?

I'm not qualified to answer this question and I'm glad I'm not a player in this quest, because I don't know what the best way forward is. But what Akane has been doing wasn't working. She was a broken porcelain doll held together with sticky tape.

In terms of the story, Akane needed to be brought to her lowest point. She needed the realization that her situation is unsustainable. Because now she can start climbing upwards. The players weren't railroaded into defeat. They were given the opportunity for personal growth and character development.
 
People need to cut Akane some slack on that 'Will being paper' thing. Was she right to cave? Perhaps no.

But consider this:

She's a 15yr old kid with a manipulative, gaslighting Father who's been systemically destroying any kind of support structure she has. Throw in past trauma with Ursa and Azulon. Throw in the fact that her Father happens to be the supreme ruler and has no qualms hurting anyone she cares about.
kosm said:
"Do not think you can lie to me, Akane," Father warns you. "Have no illusions that Iroh will save you from your punishment. Do you think I didn't notice your preparations to attack me? Do you believe I, the Fire Lord, am as oblivious to threats as you are? You will obey, or I will cease treating your treasonous impulses with such undeserved lenience."
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A father who literally says this to her face after messing with her head.
 
Sinarblood said:
He wanted us to break so he could mold us into his image. And here we broke. This is the victory that Ozai wanted.
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I'm not sure if he wanted us to break, seeing how he's lost a powerful pawn for atleast some time and sounds partially disappointed in the last bit. Assuming Ozai isn't bullshiting us again at the end, the failure state we hit here was:

We defied Ozai in a blatant manner. In a way that was central to our ideals. While he was unconvinced that our ideals were strong, satisfactory and in-line with is own.

If we hadn't defied Ozai there would have been no punishment. If it wasn't central to our will we wouldn't have lost our flame. If Ozai was convinced in our ideals he probably would have just sent us to the front with someone looking over our shoulder.

Or maybe he just wanted to break and reforge us.

Maybe @kosm can clarify?
 
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Dutch said:
I'm not sure if he wanted us to break, seeing how he's lost a powerful pawn for atleast some time and sounds partially disappointed in the last bit. Assuming Ozai isn't bullshiting us again at the end, the failure state we hit here was:

We defied Ozai in a blatant manner. In a way that was central to our ideals. While he was unconvinced that our ideals were strong, satisfactory and in-line with is own.

If we hadn't defied Ozai there would have been no punishment. If it wasn't central to our will we wouldn't have lost our flame. If Ozai was convinced on our ideals he probably would have just sent us to the front with someone looking over our shoulder.

Maybe @kosm can clarify?
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You are kind of missing the point, most of our defiance of Ozai, was central to our will because it was regarding family.

We bent whenever family wasn't involved

And Ozai, by word of Kosm was gas lighting us.

We could have avoided this result if we hung out less with Iroh, sure.

But what Ozai will wanted was to mold us in his own image, and that would require us breaking at some point or bending to the point where we might have well have broken.

Edit: he only sounded disappointed to break her more to convince her that she is the source of her problems and that she was at fault and wrong and weak.

You think he would have been fine if we defied his will and went to uncle like the other vote?

Or that he would be happier with us if we just said no we won't burn Zuko and refused?
 
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The problem is disconnect between questers and readers. The readers can simply appreciate narrative and writing, but questers? They are way, way more invested. And, well, from their POV, pay off is not guaranteed. Due to this devastating loss, people are now not sure that they can succeed in a way that is not intended by the author - and if that is the case, why the fuck are they part of the process? That was part of the reason why Hussie stopped taking votes for actions in Homestuck - he wanted to tell a cohesive story on a specific path and quests are pretty much antithesis to that. Quest, by their nature, have to have a failure condition. And, well, if a downer thing happens, and then voters never get to the cathartic shit due to the quest going sideways, than there is no pay off, which means that from their point of view - they had 0% chance of succeeding without going along the rails, even if it is not factually correct.
 
Sinarblood said:
You are kind of missing the point, most of our defiance of Ozai, was central to our will because it was regarding family.

We bent whenever family wasn't involved

And Ozai, by word of Kosm was gas lighting us.

We could have avoided this result if we hung out less with Iroh, sure.

But what Ozai will wanted was to mold us in his own image, and that would require us breaking at some point or bending to the point where we might have well have broken.

Edit: he only sounded disappointed to break her more to convince her that she is the source of her problems and that she was at fault and wrong and weak.
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Ah. I thought the gaslighting mentioned was just at the first part of the session.

Sinarblood said:
You think he would have been fine if we defied his will and went to uncle like the other vote?

Or that he would be happier with us if we just said no we won't burn Zuko and refused?
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Nope. Things were already in motion at that point.
 
Personally I would keep it because it is punishing. It is damning and I like it because I could have pictured this as Canon.

Maybe it follows Canon a little to closely, but characters feel real and there should be consequences for actions, whether good or bad.

I feel invested in Akane. I feel like she's a relatable character that has her own faults and that just makes her so interesting compared to some published characters like Corrin from FE Fates.

Don't let it get to you Kosm. The questers made their bed, now they have to sleep in it. Write what you want to write.
 
I think this was brilliantly done, everything makes sense, and this comeuppance was well deserved. I've noted how our actions reflected a lot more like Ursa, but nobody seemed to care. But alas, my issue is it's hard to root for her at this point, and I probably won't read further. Not that I blame you, the comeuppance made perfect sense given the lack of logical consistency in her actions.
 
kosm said:
Honestly I'm just going to delete this again and then not come back to this quest for a couple weeks. At this point I don't know what I'm doing anymore and the pressure is getting to me. Thank you to everyone supporting me. I'm very sorry for the trouble.
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Nooooo!
The quest is called Deep Red, I think its obvious to everyone that you've been working towards this. There will be salt whatever you write unless you intend to brush this whole thing off entirely and have massively reduced consequences.
Take a break if you need to but don't delete the update, it's really good and theres the risk of getting trapped in an eternal cycle of you rewriting it because of player salt.
Retracting this. Because I feel it was misguided.
 
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kosm said:
Honestly I'm just going to delete this again and then not come back to this quest for a couple weeks. At this point I don't know what I'm doing anymore and the pressure is getting to me. Thank you to everyone supporting me. I'm very sorry for the trouble.
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Please don't delete it. This was an interesting direction for the quest to have gone in and it's entirely viable for moving forward from here. And it's not like bad things happening to good people is particularly foreign in fiction anyway, but that doesn't mean it's the wrong direction to have gone in; A Song of Ice and Fire kills like 90% of the characters people like and root for, but the story is all the more impressive and engaging for the misfortune and struggles the cast goes through.

Take a break, absolutely take a break. If you're feeling down then allow yourself the time to recover. But don't make snap decisions while you're still in that headspace; you'll almost certainly regret them later, and such things rarely actually help. Just take some time working on other stuff you're less conflicted about for awhile, and consider coming back to Deep Red once you're able to feel fully engaged.
 
I'm going to dissent ,and say I want to see a retcon, since I didn't really feel like I could root for Akane anymore once she decided to burn Zuko and I really did enjoy the story. It's tough since only half the players voted to go down this path, but that's just the nature of a quest, I guess.

Tl;dr: Retcon and I'll love you long time.
 
Can't say I liked the update -it was a pretty disturbing read- but I did think it was well done and an impressively audacious avenue for a quest to follow. It would honestly be a shame to see it just deleted but I trust kosm can make it work if and when they choose to do so.
 
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