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Cyberpunk 2077: Rockerboy Keanu Silverhand

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Defiant Roar said:
not goverment enforced, but activist enforced, i do believe there is genuine threat of cancel culture mutating and radicalising and resulting in left version of MAGA.
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Uh, ok...
Look, again, yes some people maybe take it a little far. That always happens. But the "left version of MAGA" would be communists organizing rallies, subverting democracy to oppress anyone they dislike and making noise about how, if they could, they'd kill the whole lot of them. You know, like the MAGA people tend to do.

People boycotting companies, entertainers or influencers because they think they're bad is... well it's not that. Not at all. It's just people exercising their right to freedom of speech and association. So long as they don't violate anyone's rights... that's kind of none of my business. Or yours. You can disagree with them, of course. And if you do you should be free to tell them that. But I think it's in the interest of healthy debate to not equate people being, at worst, a bit overzealous with violent oppression by a government or politically motivated thugs.
 
veteranMortal said:
here i was thinking you supported freedom of speech

im allowed to say i think somethings shitty

you seem to have a definition of freedom of speech where it applies to people who want to say shitty things, but not to people who want to criticise them? weird.
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You are purposefully misinpreting my words which is really shitty of you.

I said there is difference between refusing to associate with person and launchign deplatforming campaign to make it imposible for other people to associate with that person unless they want to end with nasty consequences.
 
Rhel said:
Uh, ok...
Look, again, yes some people maybe take it a little far. That always happens. But the "left version of MAGA" would be communists organizing rallies, subverting democracy to oppress anyone they dislike and making noise about how, if they could, they'd kill the whole lot of them. You know, like the MAGA people tend to do.

People boycotting companies, entertainers or influencers because they think they're bad is... well it's not that. Not at all. It's just people exercising their right to freedom of speech and association. So long as they don't violate anyone's rights... that's kind of none of my business. Or yours. You can disagree with them, of course. And if you do you should be free to tell them that. But I think it's in the interest of healthy debate to not equate people being, at worst, a bit overzealous with violent oppression by a government or politically motivated thugs.
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Honestly with Washington,Jefferson Or Even Lincoln statues coming down and violent incidents on the rise im somewhat more pessimistic than you that it wont happen and thefore we shouldnt talk about it.
 
Defiant Roar said:
Honestly with Washington,Jefferson Or Even Lincoln statues coming down and violent incidents on the rise im somewhat more pessimistic than you that it wont happen and thefore we shouldnt talk about it.
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Oh no, not the statues!

Think of the statues!

Defiant Roar said:
You are purposefully misinpreting my words which is really shitty of you.

I said there is difference between refusing to associate with person and launchign deplatforming campaign to make it imposible for other people to associate with that person unless they want to end with nasty consequences.
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Impossible to associate with? JK Rowling, who is the person who started this latest round of "cancel culture" nonsense is a literal billionaire whose voice and bigoted message reach countless millions.

Like, often the "deplatforming" is literally just telling other people about the shitty things the person did.

EVO, for instance, on hearing that their President had sexually harassed teenage boys, making them do sexually charged things (like show their penis) in exchange for games tokens, or on a bet/dare/etc, then proceeded to "deplatform" him by removing him from the Presidency, because they didn't want to be associated with that. Because people drew attention to what had happened.

How terrible, that this person was "cancelled." :V

E: Like, doxxing is bad, and anyone who does it sucks. But that's not most of what "deplatforming campaigns" involve. They instead involve, essentially, lobbying various people.
 
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I suppose i will stop causing unease and making people uncomfortable and pollute thread with my toxic disagreements and rather than get into conflict with councilor again i will simply temporaraly withdraw from the thread. Throught i do have to state that while i hope all people can have fun in the end i will put my own enjoyment and hope that this game will be more fitting to me over other people preferences.

Still enjoy yourself in this thread
 
Defiant Roar said:
Honestly with Washington,Jefferson Or Even Lincoln statues coming down and violent incidents on the rise im somewhat more pessimistic than you that it wont happen and thefore we shouldnt talk about it.
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Eh, the cult around the founding fathers is kind of creepy and weird anyway. Besides, Jefferson, for all his flaws was of the opinion that
"I am increasingly persuaded that the earth belongs exclusively to the living and that one generation has no more right to bind another to it's laws and judgments than one independent nation has the right to command another."
If the current generation doesn't want the statues, then the statues go. Simple as that.

Defiant Roar said:
You are purposefully misinpreting my words which is really shitty of you.

I said there is difference between refusing to associate with person and launchign deplatforming campaign to make it imposible for other people to associate with that person unless they want to end with nasty consequences.
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I mean, at what point do you think refusing to associate with a person (within the limits of their human and civic rights of course) becomes illegitimate? How many people have to say "I want nothing to do with you unless I have to" before this suddenly becomes a harassment campaign?

Edit: No "unease" here. And no-one said anything about you being toxic. But hey, you do you.
 
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Rhel said:
Eh, the cult around the founding fathers is kind of creepy and weird anyway. Besides, Jefferson, for all his flaws was of the opinion that
"I am increasingly persuaded that the earth belongs exclusively to the living and that one generation has no more right to bind another to it's laws and judgments than one independent nation has the right to command another."
If the current generation doesn't want the statues, then the statues go. Simple as that.



I mean, at what point do you think refusing to associate with a person (within the limits of their human and civic rights of course) becomes illegitimate? How many people have to say "I want nothing to do with you unless I have to" before this suddenly becomes a harassment campaign?

Edit: No "unease" here. And no-one said anything about you being toxic. But hey, you do you.
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You are genuinely good person you know, even with the disagrements i felt no hostility from you, So genuinely id like to thank you for being so friendly.
 
I'm actually looking forwards to this game in a way that I haven't been excited for something in years and years. I'm really hoping it's going to be fun with a lot of fun routes to take. I won't deny that I hope they avoid some of the cliches of the genre, but I'm cool with it either way.

At this point, I need more games that successfully take me out of reality. Things are the way they are IRL these days, and I need the escapism. So I'm not going to try and project the modern day political climate into the game. If other people wanna do that, that's cool.
 
stratigo said:
It undercuts the theme of the genre if selling out leads to a qualitatively better and more stable life.
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I don't really know if I think that's the theme of the genre.

Cyberpunk, at least Gibson cyberpunk and I think 2020 as well is basically about subcultures. About the destruction of the mainstream of culture and the creation of cultures based around other identities. So for instance, megacorps have their own identities inside themselves. Netrunners have their own subculture, etc.

Selling out is totally possible and will lead you to a more comfortable life. You just have to sell your soul. Sell your freedom. Sing the company song and never, ever accept a job offer from anyone else.
 
Cyberpunk 2020 was always more light-hearted than say shadowrun. Rockerboys and Rockergirls were literally a class where you where a famous musician playing a gig during a runaway to pull crowds to get in the way of the cops. It never took itself all that seriously.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
Cyberpunk 2020 was always more light-hearted than say shadowrun. Rockerboys and Rockergirls were literally a class where you where a famous musician playing a gig during a runaway to pull crowds to get in the way of the cops. It never took itself all that seriously.
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Yea. The built in adventure/story had SIlverhand riling up a crowd in front of a corp while the manager went on about how he 'couldn't do anything or it would start a riot.' I went 'Loooollllll' Even today if some mob tried to run down the armed guards in front, the pepperspray/teargas would fly at the very least. In CP, the machine guns would let rip and it would at most, get waved away as justifiable.
 
Destynova1 said:
Yea. The built in adventure/story had SIlverhand riling up a crowd in front of a corp while the manager went on about how he 'couldn't do anything or it would start a riot.' I went 'Loooollllll' Even today if some mob tried to run down the armed guards in front, the pepperspray/teargas would fly at the very least. In CP, the machine guns would let rip and it would at most, get waved away as justifiable.
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i mean

we know pretty well that law enforcement has to be super careful with how they handle protests bc like.

a whole bunch of them havent been in the last month or so, and a whole lot of police precincts burnt down.
 
veteranMortal said:
i mean

we know pretty well that law enforcement has to be super careful with how they handle protests bc like.

a whole bunch of them havent been in the last month or so, and a whole lot of police precincts burnt down.
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From what I can tell I don't think Arasaka gives that much of shit they were just in the middle of a full on Corp War at the time.
 
Mac an Deise said:
From what I can tell I don't think Arasaka gives that much of shit they were just in the middle of a full on Corp War at the time.
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this is orthogonal to my point

a mass protest movement can and demonstrably has fucked over the armed wing of capital in, like, real life. theres no reason to believe that in cyberpunk, where the average joe on the street is more armed than they are now, and certainly the average person at a protest is, that this fundamental does not change.

provoking a riot doesnt suddenly become a cool easy thing you can do without consequences just because you can shoot at the riot for a bit after you provoke it

that just sounds like an easy way to get found tomorrow morning hanged from a lamppost by a vengeful mob, tbh.
 
I've always wanted to run an anticorporate rebels cyberpunk game, though I can see why they wouldn't wanna put that in a computer game with limited space as it's a obvious 'good' path in a gme that's bleak and dark.
 
veteranMortal said:
this is orthogonal to my point

a mass protest movement can and demonstrably has fucked over the armed wing of capital in, like, real life. theres no reason to believe that in cyberpunk, where the average joe on the street is more armed than they are now, and certainly the average person at a protest is, that this fundamental does not change.

provoking a riot doesnt suddenly become a cool easy thing you can do without consequences just because you can shoot at the riot for a bit after you provoke it

that just sounds like an easy way to get found tomorrow morning hanged from a lamppost by a vengeful mob, tbh.
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I favor the odds of the teched out security company over cives. Though that only lasts till the US drops there monstrous cyber troops on there heads.
 
I do kind of like the idea of playing a corporate stooge.

I would, however, note that a lot of media that is intended to criticize something ends up getting embraced by the people who it's supposed to be criticizing (see things like American History X.) In a video game, tying the cool stuff to the evil route, that can be even more extreme.

"Your friends hate you, those of them that haven't been killed, you have a penthouse that, while luxurious, is cold and sterile, emotionless, your boss holds you in contempt and is likely to stab you in the back the moment that it becomes more convenient than the alternative, and you've angered an awful lot of people in your climb to the top. Do you feel like a hero-"

"Woo! Jet pack! I get stylish cars, rocket launchers, all these cool cyber toys and guns and laser guns and shit, and I get to use them to kill commies and anarchists and gang members, this game is so cool!"

"You're a corporate slave in a gilded cage-"

"Hey, any more contracts I can sign for more power? Because this gameplay system is amazing you're playing with the high end toys. Speedrun strat: sell your soul ASAP."

For people looking to dig into the message and the theming, sure, it could be true to cyberpunk themes. But, even if CD PROJECKT RED portray the themes and tone of the genre perfectly, well, a lot of the people playing this game are going to have that messaging fly right over their heads. This is a game intended for a pretty wide audience, after all.


That said, putting aside messaging for a moment, I do think, from a personal perspective, that playing a complete sell out and stooge could be pretty fun. I want to wear popular branded clothing and spout corporate slogans in the middle of firefights, being legally obligated to get shot in the chest at least once every fight so that my body armor sponsors can use the footage in their advertising. I want my cyberdong to be sponsored by Microsoft, with the company logo proudly stenciled across it, all so that I can get a cool rocket launcher that I'm never even going to use. I want my character to have absolutely zero street cred, and corporations just think of you as a disposable tool. I would relish in one of my characters being a complete and total pawn who just likes the cool stuff while not even seeming to notice that his bosses think of him as an idiot.

I'm not just going to be any corporate stooge. I'm going to be the king of sell outs. Sell my soul and the lives of everyone I've ever cared for in order to hopefully, maybe, earn a comfortable upper-middle management position, but more likely an early grave.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
Cyberpunk 2020 was always more light-hearted than say shadowrun. Rockerboys and Rockergirls were literally a class where you where a famous musician playing a gig during a runaway to pull crowds to get in the way of the cops. It never took itself all that seriously.
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That's not 'lighthearted' per se.

The main reason why a whole bunch of valid character choices for the players included journalists, artists, local leaders, and minor authority figures is because the setting was explicitly not supposed to be 'stable' and could in fact change, fairly drastically too I might add. The player characters were supposed to be able to advance through the setting, building up networks and rep and contacts and allies, and maybe change things in the world for the better. That's why an explicit social stat in CP2020 was 'Cool' - your ability to look good on TV and sell your message to large groups. It was a supported playstyle for the players to be symbols of a different path, to have them destabilize the status quo.

You were also probably going to die in the process but nobody said this shit was easy.

It's telling that in both of the quasi-sequels to CP2020, CyberGeneration and Cyberpunk V3, the world goes through pretty drastic changes, unlike Shadowrun where the world stays basically stable. Contrast, say, Shadowrun, which has a much more stable setting even with metaplot changes.
 
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I mean, what do you want to hear? That playing an asshole in a game can sometimes be fun just on its own? Yes, obviously. I'm pretty sure everyone who plays a lot of games has done some stuff in games that they'd consider absolutely horrible in real life. I play HOI4, Civilization and Stellaris. If I did the things I do in those games I'd be in front of an international tribunal right now. It's not unheard of for audiences to cheer for the villain either if they're more appealing or interesting. None of that reflects on the moral character of the people in question.
 
Rhel said:
I mean, what do you want to hear? That playing an asshole in a game can sometimes be fun just on its own? Yes, obviously. I'm pretty sure everyone who plays a lot of games has done some stuff in games that they'd consider absolutely horrible in real life. I play HOI4, Civilization and Stellaris. If I did the things I do in those games I'd be in front of an international tribunal right now. It's not unheard of for audiences to cheer for the villain either if they're more appealing or interesting. None of that reflects on the moral character of the people in question.
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I want to note that a character driven narrative and the emergent narrative of a grand strategy game are not the same, the authors of the experience have far less control of one, and the events in it are far more abstracted.

It's one thing to cackle madly while playing and empire of evil geckos genociding the galaxy. Its another to play a character putting the gun to the head of an innocent person and pulling the trigger for a quest. The abstract evil of the geckos is comical and unreal in the way playing a psycho murdering someone is not, and the message takes on a different meaning in each. More care has to be taken in the actions of a protagonist in a narrative experience than the abstract actions of a society in an unscripted grand strategy game.

Also, like, the tone of cyberpunk 2020 is not humorous or goofy. It's a straight narrative played for drama and action. It's not, in fact, a satire, even if there will likely be a satirical element here or there.
 
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