Genres and their trappings can be expanded whilst preserving their key themes, and cybernetic body modding can be positive in theory and dystopian in practice much like modern biomedical technologies and their application today. Portraying it positively in Cyberpunk is allowed because hope is allowed.

Okay, was just me reading poorly then, no problem!


And that's really just ceding all ground to capitalism which kind of undermines any critique of it; people have been horrible and wonderful to each other since long before capitalism existed and will continue to be wonderful and horrible to each other for long into the future. Tying yourself into s framework of this being capitalism is a straightjacket for your imagination.

Like you can do a cyberpunk story about an ancom hacker commune which is ripped apart by murder (after it turned out one of the members tried to upload their bodiless wife into another person from the cloud for a threesome gone wrong). The technology is enabling us to do wrong, but it's a human story at heart

You can do anything with anything, but there's a reason that cyberpunk stories tend to position the fabulously wealthy and influential as the problem and that's because many of its great examples are about humans under some extreme manifestation of capitalism run totally rampant. It's a genre reflective of the extrapolated anxieties of the day.

As of today, capitalism is the ground and many capitalist countries like to keep it that way. We're a little past ceding much of anything.
 
Last edited:
Genres and their trappings can be expanded whilst preserving their key themes, and cybernetic body modding can be positive in theory and dystopian in practice much like modern biomedical technologies and their application today. Portraying it positively in Cyberpunk is allowed because hope is allowed.



You can do anything with anything, but there's a reason that cyberpunk stories tend to position the fabulously wealthy and influential as the problem and that's because many of its great examples are about humans under some extreme manifestation of capitalism run totally rampant. It's a genre reflective of the extrapolated anxieties of the day.

As of today, capitalism is the ground and many capitalist countries like to keep it that way. We're a little past ceding much of anything.
I mean, if you're willing to give everything that is good in the human experience as a credit to the capitalists I don't think they'd mind! Just undercuts it as a critique a tad.

Plus you can't crush my dreams of awesome Lenninist Cyberpunk
 
I mean, if you're willing to give everything that is good in the human experience as a credit to the capitalists I don't think they'd mind! Just undercuts it as a critique a tad.

Plus you can't crush my dreams of awesome Lenninist Cyberpunk

I don't see why you couldn't have a Cyberpunk world with no private corporations to speak of. I mean, in that case the social conflict would be against some form of the State or Party.
A lot of Cyberpunk elements have to do with crime and poverty contrasted by a wealthy elite, no clearly defined black and white good or evil in most scenarios, top-down societal control of the masses vs anarchy of the individual, and of course technology that fundamentally does nothing to cure the human condition but rather enhances it, vices and virtues alike.

Just think of Comrade Lenin, a rockerboy of some fame, finally managing to rise up the masses against the injustices of the Tsarists, a corrupt and power-hoarding elite that keep the people destitute for the benefit of their small nner circles.
Against all odds, the revolution succeeds and change is beginning to happen. There is hope!
Comrade Lenin, despite being highly charismatic and able connect with people, doesn't really understand complexities of governments. He tries his best, but cannot do it alone andi wlel outside of his comfort zone in attempting to feed and house the millions he is suddenly supposed to lead.
The revolution appears dead by its own hand.
However, Comrade Stalin has other ideas. He is efficient. Direct. Some say even brutal. He believes in order and systems - anarchy cannot be allowed to rule - and is integral in establishing the new government. Revolution is good to bring about change, but fundamentally do people not want stability and predictability more? If this were not, sure the Revolution would have happened decades before and a new one would already be in the making?
Thus behind the curtains, this new government begins to have features that look a lot like the old government, simply re-purposed. It isn't like they were really evil after all, simply self-centered, misguided and aimed towards the benefit of the decrepit elite instead of the whole nation channeled through the glorious Party.
Daring media investigators catch wiff of this, but are assassinated before they can release their story. It is not time yet, you see. There must be stability and order for a while longer if the Revolution is to survive its final hurdle.
But other people are now on the lookout as well. Their voices are drowned under criticisms that they are simply remnants of the old order rebelling against the new, but slowly Comrade Stalin is forced to more and more drastic measures to keep the truth suppressed. He just wishes to have the new government rule a stable country, with the best and brightest taking their deserved positions at the top to guide everyone to a better future. Meanwhile, Comrade Lenin is becoming disfranchised with the reality of what he has sown. He tries to take a firmer handle on things and fulfill the dozens of promises he has made, but it is so hard and people have such conflicting views on how the resources should be distributed...

And so on.... Change the backstory and the details a bit, and the October Revolution could be a cyberpunk story through and through.
 
I mean, if you're willing to give everything that is good in the human experience as a credit to the capitalists I don't think they'd mind! Just undercuts it as a critique a tad.

Plus you can't crush my dreams of awesome Lenninist Cyberpunk
How you got that from what I wrote I don't know, and actually I'm not interested in following you down the rabbit hole you took to transfigure "this genre came out of a specific time and place" into "you are crediting all that is good to capitalism".

3/10 got me to respond.
 
How you got that from what I wrote I don't know, and actually I'm not interested in following you down the rabbit hole you took to transfigure "this genre came out of a specific time and place" into "you are crediting all that is good to capitalism".

3/10 got me to respond.
I didn't think I needed to put a big glaring /s there but okay, I'll note that for the future.

Especially when the debate is about what cyberpunk is saying as a genre, with themes of alienation and terror through technology being told strongest when you're able to look at them from a variety of viewpoints.
 
I didn't think I needed to put a big glaring /s there but okay, I'll note that for the future.

Especially when the debate is about what cyberpunk is saying as a genre, with themes of alienation and terror through technology being told strongest when you're able to look at them from a variety of viewpoints.

As you have adroitly observed, versatile things that can be used in many ways are versatile.

Having said that, looking at what has happened is useful when trying to work out what has happened.

I'm talking about cyberpunk as it has existed and exists, and presently in English speaking countries operating under a variety of capitalist economies, cyberpunk written in such places is about capitalism tomorrow ecause it reflects anxiety about local reality today.

If it were to be reflective of local reality and anxieties to write Leninist cyberpunk, it would likely happen, but I don't think it has yet very widely, and what has happened is several decades of examining at length the real and imagined flaws with capitalism.

Hypotheticals are nice but they aren't always helpful when trying to work out a history of a thing, you know?
 
As you have adroitly observed, versatile things that can be used in many ways are versatile.

Having said that, looking at what has happened is useful when trying to work out what has happened.

I'm talking about cyberpunk as it has existed and exists, and presently in English speaking countries operating under a variety of capitalist economies, cyberpunk written in such places is about capitalism tomorrow ecause it reflects anxiety about local reality today.

If it were to be reflective of local reality and anxieties to write Leninist cyberpunk, it would likely happen, but I don't think it has yet very widely, and what has happened is several decades of examining at length the real and imagined flaws with capitalism.

Hypotheticals are nice but they aren't always helpful when trying to work out a history of a thing, you know?
That's not what the actual topic has been about though? Cyberpunk isn't written purely as a setting; as a collection of themes it is much deeper than lolcapitalism. It's about how we relate to technology and the harms within; capitalism is a damn useful tool for illustrating this, but often ends up more as an aesthetic surrounding the themes instead of as the thrust of the piece. That's what the discussion has been about after all.
 
It'd be nice to see a "big" game that included transgender characters beyond tokenism and cameos. I think Dragon Age Inquisition had one, but for the most part that day has yet to come and I doubt this game will incorporate trans people or our experiences. I suspect far off is the day that a playable character in such a "big" game is or could be trans.
 
How does Humanity wok on tabletop and how did players balance that with bionics? Is it possible for a late game player not to have any bionics at all and still be viable?
Characters posses an Empathy score, a number between 1-10. The empathy score is explained thusly.
Empathy:
This Stat represent how well you relate to other living things - a measure of charisma and sympathetic emotions. In a world of alienated, future-shocked survivors, the ability to be "human" can no longer be taken for granted. Empathy (EM) is critical when leading, convincing, seducing or perceiving emotional undercurrents. Empathy is also a measure of how close he/she is to the line between feeling human being and cold blooded cyber-monster.

Every piece of 'ware has a score with as low as zero (Usually for 'ware designed to more or less mimic body parts.) To as high as 42d6+3 (This for the Dragoon Combat Borg that requires the pilot be constantly dosed up on anti-pyschotics and Braindanced when plugged in.)
Most 'ware though usually only has a 1d6 cost and this can bounce around to 2d6 or 3d6 for serious stuff.

These scores are how many humanity points you lose when taking a piece of 'ware and every character has whatever their Empathy score is times 10. (So a person with a 10 in Empathy has 100 Humanity points.)
Every ten points of humanity causes your Empathy score to lower a tick.
Hit Zero and you go Cyberpyscho. (Which isn't a permanent status if you can get brought in for therapy.)

It's actually a little difficult to hit Cyberpyscho unless you have a really low empathy score to start with and because their are ways to decrease the amount of Humanity Points lost through several kinds of therapy, with one set of options letting a character being able to save either 25%, 33% or even 50% of their humanity points depending on the type of treatment they get. (With corresponding greater prices.)

It is in fact possible for late game players to stay 100% pure with no or very little 'Ware.
Especially since theirs a lot of Anti-Borg weapons and serious firepower available.

Or you could just be an ACPA Pilot and punch a Borgs face in repeatedly because power armor rocks.
 
Na, remember that there was no cyberware that had a value of 0, even a toe replacement had a .1 rating.

Unless that was changed in later printings, because I had it open earlier.


Which I REALLLLLLLLY hope happened.
 
I don't see why you couldn't have a Cyberpunk world with no private corporations to speak of. I mean, in that case the social conflict would be against some form of the State or Party.
A lot of Cyberpunk elements have to do with crime and poverty contrasted by a wealthy elite, no clearly defined black and white good or evil in most scenarios, top-down societal control of the masses vs anarchy of the individual, and of course technology that fundamentally does nothing to cure the human condition but rather enhances it, vices and virtues alike.

Nah for me Cyberpunk is about people writing about cool cybernetics while waxing poetically about the loss of humanity those same cybernetics bring.

Just think of Comrade Lenin, a rockerboy of some fame, finally managing to rise up the masses against the injustices of the Tsarists, a corrupt and power-hoarding elite that keep the people destitute for the benefit of their small nner circles.
Against all odds, the revolution succeeds and change is beginning to happen. There is hope!
Comrade Lenin, despite being highly charismatic and able connect with people, doesn't really understand complexities of governments. He tries his best, but cannot do it alone andi wlel outside of his comfort zone in attempting to feed and house the millions he is suddenly supposed to lead.
The revolution appears dead by its own hand.
However, Comrade Stalin has other ideas. He is efficient. Direct. Some say even brutal. He believes in order and systems - anarchy cannot be allowed to rule - and is integral in establishing the new government. Revolution is good to bring about change, but fundamentally do people not want stability and predictability more? If this were not, sure the Revolution would have happened decades before and a new one would already be in the making?
Thus behind the curtains, this new government begins to have features that look a lot like the old government, simply re-purposed. It isn't like they were really evil after all, simply self-centered, misguided and aimed towards the benefit of the decrepit elite instead of the whole nation channeled through the glorious Party.
Daring media investigators catch wiff of this, but are assassinated before they can release their story. It is not time yet, you see. There must be stability and order for a while longer if the Revolution is to survive its final hurdle.
But other people are now on the lookout as well. Their voices are drowned under criticisms that they are simply remnants of the old order rebelling against the new, but slowly Comrade Stalin is forced to more and more drastic measures to keep the truth suppressed. He just wishes to have the new government rule a stable country, with the best and brightest taking their deserved positions at the top to guide everyone to a better future. Meanwhile, Comrade Lenin is becoming disfranchised with the reality of what he has sown. He tries to take a firmer handle on things and fulfill the dozens of promises he has made, but it is so hard and people have such conflicting views on how the resources should be distributed...

And so on.... Change the backstory and the details a bit, and the October Revolution could be a cyberpunk story through and through.

Still describing Capitalism. In this case the breakdown of a Socialist revolution back into an Oligarchy. Still Capitalism just different value being extracted from the people.

I didn't think I needed to put a big glaring /s there but okay, I'll note that for the future.

Especially when the debate is about what cyberpunk is saying as a genre, with themes of alienation and terror through technology being told strongest when you're able to look at them from a variety of viewpoints.

You do get that without an /s or some sort of smiley there is no way to tell if you are being sarcastic and Poe's Law takes over?

Also alienation trough technology is right up there with overpopulation in the category of problems that aren't real, but a lot of people use them to excuse the shitty parts of the world. Not only is technology connecting people more these days, but also shit like dog-pilling on other people for their opinions is now seen as a problem where in previous generation it was both worse and dismissed as whining from people who tried to talk about it.

That's not what the actual topic has been about though? Cyberpunk isn't written purely as a setting; as a collection of themes it is much deeper than lolcapitalism. It's about how we relate to technology and the harms within; capitalism is a damn useful tool for illustrating this, but often ends up more as an aesthetic surrounding the themes instead of as the thrust of the piece. That's what the discussion has been about after all.

For me the topic has been about Capitalism this entire time and how Cyberpunk is about truly Late Stage Capitalism and it's ugliness and also masturbatory power fantasies of the author.

It'd be nice to see a "big" game that included transgender characters beyond tokenism and cameos. I think Dragon Age Inquisition had one, but for the most part that day has yet to come and I doubt this game will incorporate trans people or our experiences. I suspect far off is the day that a playable character in such a "big" game is or could be trans.

Yeah sorry can't think of one. I did mention an indie game that has one of the main characters be trans a little while back, but that character is still not playable.
 
Well South Park had both a positive AND negative example when it came to your choosing your character's gender and self-identification. At the exact same time.

I mean, it was annoying. They both did it tastefully with the councilor AND mockingly with the Hillbilly fight, at the same time... So business as usual for them I guess?
 
Still describing Capitalism. In this case the breakdown of a Socialist revolution back into an Oligarchy. Still Capitalism just different value being extracted from the people.

Umm.....to me, capitalism is nothing more or less, than an economic system based on private ownership of means of production in pursuit of financial profit.
Transform everyone corporation and company in the world into non-profit ones? Capitalism is dead.
A government seizes the means of production without changing anything else? Capitalism is dead.
Basically, if a government creates a bunch of corporations to produce goods and services, and then forces them to compete against one another using economic measuring points to determine efficiency in a market.... If the government owns those corporations (almost regardless of what form that government takes), Capitalism Is Still Dead because those means of production are not privately owned.

If you think an oligarchy is automatically capitalist, you must have a very weird definition of capitalism then.

EDIT: Perhaps my tone was needlessly antagonistic, and for that I apologize.
It's just that in my opinion there are and have been so many different forms of Capitalism being invented that the whole term is diluted of meaning if we are to take it in its widest definitions. If who owns the factories, presence of absence of profit or competitive market, or it even being an economic system or not are no longer indicators, then what is there that cannot be labelled a form of capitalism? And if almost anything can be labelled capitalism, what use is the label any more?
 
Last edited:
Na, remember that there was no cyberware that had a value of 0, even a toe replacement had a .1 rating.

Unless that was changed in later printings, because I had it open earlier.


Which I REALLLLLLLLY hope happened.
Nooooo there's plenty of 'ware that costs zero points. :/
Standard arms and legs for example are ZERO points.
I don't know where your getting your information from but it's wrong. Especially since absolutely NO ware costs 0.2 points. Since the only costs that use decimals is 0.5. (Anti-Plague Nanotech, Nanogroomers, Altered Retinas, Variety of Cyber-Eye addons and etc.)

I have the CP2020 Core Book and the Chromebooks open.
Your looking at THIS book right?
 
Last edited:
Every piece of 'ware has a score with as low as zero (Usually for 'ware designed to more or less mimic body parts.) To as high as 42d6+3 (This for the Dragoon Combat Borg that requires the pilot be constantly dosed up on anti-pyschotics and Braindanced when plugged in.)
Most 'ware though usually only has a 1d6 cost and this can bounce around to 2d6 or 3d6 for serious stuff.
there's modern implants that increase emmpathy tho.
Modulation of Beta-Band Activity in the Subgenual Anterior Cingulate Cortex during Emotional Empathy in Treatment-Resistant Depression. - PubMed - NCBI
 
Anarchist Capitalists are still Anarchists and Capitalists even if most Anarchist like to stick their fingers in their ears and go lalallalalalallalala and ignore what that says about human nature.

Capitalism is an economic system marked by the dominance of wage labor, of people renting themselves out piecemeal to the authoritarian control of bosses.

How is that in any way anarchist?
 
Capitalism is an economic system marked by the dominance of wage labor, of people renting themselves out piecemeal to the authoritarian control of bosses.

How is that in any way anarchist?

If you define 'anarchist' as 'not having a government', I.E. wrongly. On both counts, as under an anarcho-capitalist system, using the previously-mentioned incorrect definition of anarchist, the time that it would take for the corporations involved to devolve into what would effectively be a series of feudalistic oligarchies would be impossible to measure in its speed. Businesses would, in effect, become the state in the event of the state's absence.
 
If you define 'anarchist' as 'not having a government', I.E. wrongly. On both counts, as under an anarcho-capitalist system, using the previously-mentioned incorrect definition of anarchist, the time that it would take for the corporations involved to devolve into what would effectively be a series of feudalistic oligarchies would be impossible to measure in its speed. Businesses would, in effect, become the state in the event of the state's absence.

I mean, we've seen that happen in India and Indonesia historically with the British and Dutch East India Companies.
 
Perhaps instead of humanity/essence loss, cyberware now has space/slots? The standard Street Samurai arm has 'X' number of slots that can be used for hand razors, smartgun link and a muscle enhancement if you want the classic package or go for something custom. If you want to get more in there, you will need to visit the higher tech clinics that do miniaturization a lot better.
 
I mean, you could also do something like make it so that replacing your arms with swords makes you unable to interact with things.

Like, you know, door knobs.

But don't worry, you can just stab the door to death and then go through the wreckage instead!

"That'll be $500 for a replacement door."

noooooooooooooo
 
Perhaps instead of humanity/essence loss, cyberware now has space/slots? The standard Street Samurai arm has 'X' number of slots that can be used for hand razors, smartgun link and a muscle enhancement if you want the classic package or go for something custom. If you want to get more in there, you will need to visit the higher tech clinics that do miniaturization a lot better.
Or just have cyberware have a combined money and xp equivalent cost.
 
Or just have cyberware have a combined money and xp equivalent cost.
Points based like Witcher 3? As you level up, you can assign points to Reflexes,strength, special vision and so on.

I have no idea if such an option could be done, but different modes of the game for those who wnat a different experiance?

Unlimited mode lets you use as much cyberwear as you wish with the only costs being money/experiance

Limited Mode gives you space limitations on how much you can carry in your body

Original Mode has the humanity/essence costs from the PnP game implemented.
 
Last edited:
It is in fact possible for late game players to stay 100% pure with no or very little 'Ware.
Especially since theirs a lot of Anti-Borg weapons and serious firepower available.

Not really, at least for combat purposes. If you're a Solo, you can sort of compensate for the boosts that speedware give you by stacking Combat Sense-except a cyborg Solo can buy Combat Sense to just as high a level, and then murder the fuck out of you because they simply shoot straighter, shoot first, and dodge better. REF is the godstat of CP2020, and cyborgs have more of it than you. And we're just talking standard cyber here, rather than, idk, special ops full conversions with REF 15. Furthermore, the cyborg can take hits better. If they've got cyberlimbs (or worse, are a full conversion), being shot by almost anything will barely faze them, and the stuff that gets through the armor will hurt even less. If they're running skinweave + subdermal armor, they can have SP 12 full-body, plus effective SP22 for their torso, before stacking other armor on that. Basic armor clothing (i.e. the stuff that will let you avoid being noticed and harassed because you don't look loaded for bear) stacked on that easily gets you up to SP 16 on the limbs plus effective SP25 torso, meaning you're immune to anything short of an AR on the chest, and immune to pistols and most SMGs everywhere else but the head.

For a guy without augments, the only way you're getting this is incredibly bulky armor that tanks your REF score into oblivion and means you aren't hitting anyone.

You can be a viable combatant with minimal humanity cost augmentation-some reflex boosts (particularly the biotech/nanotech kind), ocular rebuilds, skinweave, and a smartgun link-but doing so as an unaugmented dude is very hard, doubly so if you're not a Solo.

Nooooo there's plenty of 'ware that costs zero points. :/
Standard arms and legs for example are ZERO points.
I don't know where your getting your information from but it's wrong. Especially since absolutely NO ware costs 0.2 points. Since the only costs that use decimals is 0.5. (Anti-Plague Nanotech, Nanogroomers, Altered Retinas, Variety of Cyber-Eye addons and etc.)

Basic cyberlimbs are 2d6, 1d6 + 1d6/2 if you have them covered in Realskinn. They're worth it, because holy shit a cyberlimb in CP2020 is an immensely beneficial augmentation (paired cyberlegs mean that 40% of the time, you take damage to a cyberleg, and a cyberleg will still function, no penalty, even after taking damage which would outright kill a person, and if you have paired cyberarms too, 60% of the time you take damage on metal rather than fragile meat). Basic hands and feet, without any options, don't cost anything, but you need them to well, have hands or feet.
 
I have the CP2020 Core Book and the Chromebooks open.
Your looking at THIS book right?

You see that "features new art work" in the top? And 'Second Edition'?
Mine didn't have that. Also it's in a pile of pages, scattered across boxes. That old book did NOT survive.

So it sounds like they did change it. Oh thank god, the idea that a FINGER replacement could cause a GM to force a humanity check that failed always stuck in my craw. (Had several bad GM's back then who would be dicks like that)

Unless this page isn't cyber punk but one of the other cyber RPG's? ...yea I'm not even sure anymore, just that I have this here.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top