Ah Alsace, one of the various territories of the kingdom that used to lie between east and west Francia that France and Germany spent pretty much the entirety the entirety of their existences in various forms fighting on and off wars over until the aftermath of World War II.
 
Less a writing cliche and more an analysis cliche I can't stand. The whole 'People like villains more than heroes because villains are outcasts who oppose the status quo'

Really? It sounds to me like the people who say this don't know enough villains. There's plenty of villains out there who practically are the status quo and aren't outcasts at all, having good publicity even. Like even in just the Disney animated canon you still have Gaston and Lady Tremaine, and in D&D you have a whole Alignment, Lawful Evil, for status quo villains (granted, characters can vary even in a single alignment)
Funny in light of the latest Pop Culture Detective video.

But in fact, I remember a video dedicated to Disney villains, and they were just divided into "rebels" and "dominators". At the same time, some characters combined the features of both.
 
A cliche that's not really on the level of "can't stand", but I'd still like to see less of: two (almost always male) characters have an emotional confrontation, and they decide to resolve it by punching each other. This somehow leads to them "understanding" each other.

I don't like it primarily in the sense of "seen it too many times, get new material", and partly because I just don't really understand how fisticuffs apparently automatically leads to "connecting feelings". The recent examples I've seen are also often in the vein of "I want to understand you, so let's fight", like it's assumed to be a valid means of communication.
 
A cliche that's not really on the level of "can't stand", but I'd still like to see less of: two (almost always male) characters have an emotional confrontation, and they decide to resolve it by punching each other. This somehow leads to them "understanding" each other.

I don't like it primarily in the sense of "seen it too many times, get new material", and partly because I just don't really understand how fisticuffs apparently automatically leads to "connecting feelings". The recent examples I've seen are also often in the vein of "I want to understand you, so let's fight", like it's assumed to be a valid means of communication.
Well, most often this is found in sports stories and tales about kung fu or something like that. For these kinds of characters, fighting each other can be a form of self-expression.
 
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Less a writing cliche and more an analysis cliche I can't stand. The whole 'People like villains more than heroes because villains are outcasts who oppose the status quo'

Really? It sounds to me like the people who say this don't know enough villains. There's plenty of villains out there who practically are the status quo and aren't outcasts at all, having good publicity even. Like even in just the Disney animated canon you still have Gaston and Lady Tremaine, and in D&D you have a whole Alignment, Lawful Evil, for status quo villains (granted, characters can vary even in a single alignment)
I mean, in terms of lawful evil villains you often see less status quo villains and more villains who wish to change the status quo to be more authoritarian, ie Sauron.
 
Less a writing cliche and more an analysis cliche I can't stand. The whole 'People like villains more than heroes because villains are outcasts who oppose the status quo'

Really? It sounds to me like the people who say this don't know enough villains. There's plenty of villains out there who practically are the status quo and aren't outcasts at all, having good publicity even. Like even in just the Disney animated canon you still have Gaston and Lady Tremaine, and in D&D you have a whole Alignment, Lawful Evil, for status quo villains (granted, characters can vary even in a single alignment)
When people say this they mean how the characters are coded, not their literal in story status or story function. You cannot throw a rock without hitting a villain who uses behaviors and appearance associated with queer culture to equal evil. Ratcliffe in Pocahontas may be a governor with power, but he's also a effeminate man who loves glitter and owns a pug. It's hayes code bullshit. Even in more modern works character designs that pull from stereotypically queer aesthetics, butch women especially, are only ever seen in villain factions.
 
When people say this they mean how the characters are coded, not their literal in story status or story function. You cannot throw a rock without hitting a villain who uses behaviors and appearance associated with queer culture to equal evil. Ratcliffe in Pocahontas may be a governor with power, but he's also a effeminate man who loves glitter and owns a pug. It's hayes code bullshit. Even in more modern works character designs that pull from stereotypically queer aesthetics, butch women especially, are only ever seen in villain factions.
Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame does not look like a stereotypical homosexual - so this is not a general rule, but rather one of the options (it is not always possible to tell whether this was the goal).
As for the films of the code period, most likely you mean the "pre-code" stage (before Brin). For basically the code tried to make homosexuality not just undesirable, but even non-existent - that is, even phrases or ephemisms hinting at the phenomenon itself fell under the knife of the editors. Of course, the system occasionally malfunctioned (and various editors had varying degrees of leniency). And to be honest - I know some... Brin supporters. In particular, in their blog, for example, they proposed to remake Radcliffe in Pacahontas - so that he would not look so much like "pansies".
 
Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame does not look like a stereotypical homosexual - so this is not a general rule, but rather one of the options (it is not always possible to tell whether this was the goal).

Well that's because his villainy is specifically framed as him being a heterosexual rapist.

So yeah, when the villain is defined by wanting to fuck the female lead he's not going to be gay coded. Kind of a mundane observation.
 
Pansy - in the first half of the 20th century, either a homosexual man or a man with "feminine habits" was so designated. Also related to the gay scene, but this is a topic in which I understand little.

Well that's because his villainy is specifically framed as him being a heterosexual rapist.
So yeah, when the villain is defined by wanting to fuck the female lead he's not going to be gay coded. Kind of a mundane observation.
Ok, maybe I started wrong. But my love for gothic literature taught me that a villain can be a representative of any social group - a monarchist and a republican, a feudal lord and a worker, an Arab and a European, a debauchee and a priest... Anyone.
 
Well that's because his villainy is specifically framed as him being a heterosexual rapist.

So yeah, when the villain is defined by wanting to fuck the female lead he's not going to be gay coded. Kind of a mundane observation.
I don't know, "depraved bisexual" is an infamously well known trope...

But basically, the point is that not all villains are gay-coded, even if quite a lot (disproportionately many) are, and even if this is seen widely in, for example, Disney movies. This doesn't actually invalidate any thing anyone says about "gee, you notice how Disney villains are gay-coded," though, so I can only assume it originates with a pedantic impulse to say "just to be clear, you're talking about a subset of Disney villains, not all of them, right" when everyone already knew the answer to the question.

I once worked with a woman who very much insisted that any guy that own a "small girly dog" was himself less of a man. But aside from that his dog is getting manicures and bubble baths and being fed maraschino cherries they want you to think that even his dog is prissy.
I see.

Well, there's a lot I don't know about dogs, and a lot I don't know about the social conventions of gay-coding, so it's no surprise that the amount I know about the intersection of the two would be pretty close to the empty set.
 
Radcliffe even being a villain in the first place while John Smith being a good guy was a tad mindboggling with a bit of knowledge of early Virginia colonial history but then the movie was also made by people who clearly not only didn't know the history but also didn't know much about Virgina and its tidewater region though failure to understand local geology is a common sin in Hollywood.
 
But in fact, I remember a video dedicated to Disney villains, and they were just divided into "rebels" and "dominators". At the same time, some characters combined the features of both.

Oh thanks a lot. Now I've got a list of Disney animated films, and I'm dividing main antagonists into "Rulers" and "Rebels". At this point I'm going to end up with excel spreadsheets and charts...

So far I'm surprised at how common the status-quo supporting leader is the antagonist...
 
Radcliffe even being a villain in the first place while John Smith being a good guy was a tad mindboggling with a bit of knowledge of early Virginia colonial history but then the movie was also made by people who clearly not only didn't know the history but also didn't know much about Virgina and its tidewater region though failure to understand local geology is a common sin in Hollywood.
Nah, Disney knew they were being inaccurate they just didn't care. That's why Pocahontas is aged up and why John Smith is a blonde adonis.
 
Oh thanks a lot. Now I've got a list of Disney animated films, and I'm dividing main antagonists into "Rulers" and "Rebels". At this point I'm going to end up with excel spreadsheets and charts...

So far I'm surprised at how common the status-quo supporting leader is the antagonist...

Where would Jafar fall under, out of curiosity? (Aladdin was my "main childhood" Disney movie, so I immediately thought of that.)

He wanted to rule, but he did so by rebelling against the established ruler. I know that Aladdin himself is firmly on the "rebel" side, but I'm not sure about Jafar.
 
Funny in light of the latest Pop Culture Detective video.

Since the video was about the MCU, yeah, fully behind him on that one (in fact, the video was a little 'No duh' for me). Though RWBY may be even worse than the MCU in that regard, even if the MCU still has way more than cultural capital whereas nobody but Fix Fic writers have cared about RWBY in ages

Disney though at least been trying to remove the queercoding from their villains lately... which has the downside of removing any of their personality in the process (think Jafar and Scar in the Aladdin and Lion King remakes). Though the problem there is less removing the queercoding and more not bothering to replace it with anything substantial
 
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Where would Jafar fall under, out of curiosity? (Aladdin was my "main childhood" Disney movie, so I immediately thought of that.)

He wanted to rule, but he did so by rebelling against the established ruler. I know that Aladdin himself is firmly on the "rebel" side, but I'm not sure about Jafar.

I'm not sure Jafar or Aladdin were against the status quo.
They were against their place in it, sure, but that's all they tried to change, not the rest of the setting.
 
Also a lot of people who complain about medieval age Catholic Church stuff usually never ask what exactly made it so that this church was the one that had to set rules on common decency or why it was the church that had to try and act as the social safety net when their were secular rulers who could've easily did the same of jot for their raging murderboners
Yes in many cases the Catholic Church tired to ban indigenous slavery or Witch Burnings and people didn't listen to them.

Da Evul Catholic Church is a bugbear of mine.

Church tried to keep marriages to people over 13 which wasn't hard as most commoners married in their early 20s but nobility really needed to cemet allegiances.

Pre-Christian Europe was not a feminist equalitian paradise at all.

I never understood the "queer coding" element of Frollo and Jafar as their entire deal is lusting after women who don't like them.

Scar falls into it to as a cut scene had him come down on Nala to make "Little Scars".

Yes two main types of villian is trying to upset the social order and the people trying to mantain it.

Or Lawful evil vs Chaotic evil in DND terminology.

Villains who upset the social order seem way more common do. Of course their is nuance as people upset the social order to impose their own version of it.
 
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Villains who upset the social order seem way more common do. Of course their is nuance as people upset the social order to impose their own version of it.
Yeah. There's a preponderance of "villains who upset the social order" in no small part because those are a kind of villain people are very familiar with in real life. There's tons of people and organizations whose idea of changing the social order is turning it into a dictatorship with them at the top, or whose main objection to the present order is that it gets in the way of them slaughtering the people they don't like or converting the world by the sword to The One True Way. People who want to violently overthrow the social order tend to make good villains because they do "villainous" things, and likely have villainous goals.

Yes, there's people who would change the world for the better if they could, but typically they make poor villains due to the whole "unwilling to commit massacres and atrocities" thing.
 
Yes, there's people who would change the world for the better if they could, but typically they make poor villains due to the whole "unwilling to commit massacres and atrocities" thing.

One of my opinions that I mentioned before in one of these threads (could have been this one, or the Unpopular Opinions thread) was that a common type of villain wants to make the world better, but goes way too far in their methods.

Hence "environmentalism by wiping out humanity" or "world peace by killing dissenters".

I recall getting a surprising amount of pushback for that opinion, although I can't recall what that pushback was.
 
One of my opinions that I mentioned before in one of these threads (could have been this one, or the Unpopular Opinions thread) was that a common type of villain wants to make the world better, but goes way too far in their methods.
Yeah; that's why I said "would change the world for the better" rather than "wants to". When your chosen method of "improving" the world involves things like mass graves, your alleged goals stop mattering very much; especially to the people likely to end up dumped in them.

"The path to Hell is paved with good intentions" and all that. That kind of "villainy" is something that we see in real life often enough that it's not surprising to see it in fiction too.
 
Where would Jafar fall under, out of curiosity? (Aladdin was my "main childhood" Disney movie, so I immediately thought of that.)

I listed him as a Rebel, because his actions were to effectively overturn the status quo in so many ways.

As an exemple of my thinking, in Toy Story I listed the antagonist as a Ruler, but that's because the primary antagonist in the film was trying to retain the status quo and their power...

The odd ones are the films where even the presence of antagonist is really indeterminant, or the antagonism is self imposed. Pinnochio and Finding Nemo for example.
 
Disney though at least been trying to remove the queercoding from their villains lately... which has the downside of removing any of their personality in the process (think Jafar and Scar in the Aladdin and Lion King remakes). Though the problem there is less removing the queercoding and more not bothering to replace it with anything substantial
In Scar's case, I'm not sure that it even takes place. The only hint is exaggerated gestures. However, this is standard for villains (especially in the 20th century, when heroes are supposed to be portrayed as stoic) - there is even a trope called "Evil is Hammy"
 
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