This all seem very devillish to me.

Fair, I forgot the part where Semyaza teaching the humans how to make themselves look like Egyptian Pharaohs led to humans growing corrupt :p

It's still really far removed from the idea of Satan, I think. Satan as a figure is often linked with Samael, but Samael having a proper Satan-like role in esoteric Judaism only really becomes a thing well after Christianity developed its own ideas about Satan, AFAIK.

There's a lot of distance and important differences in the details here. If there's a link, I feel like it's as distant as the link between Zeus and Thor. I'm basically nitpicking because the way you worded things, someone might be forgiven for thinking that the Book of Enoch contains the same War in Heaven as Revelations does.
 
I have to admit though, some other elements of Isaac's depiction are kinda... regressive, specifically with regards to him being shown as homosexual while also being a villainous, self-flagellating misanthrope.
It's not regressive to have a gay character who's villainous, what matters is that the villainy has nothing to do with their sexuality. And considering that Hector was a villain for pretty much the same reason I don't think you can compellingly argue that there's any connection in the narrative between Isaac's sexuality and his negative behavior.
 
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Well honestly its kinda sus for an Tommy with an axe to grind against religion to do it against Catholicism and not his own wheelhouse. Atleast Garth Ennis is Irish so its more understandable.
The Catholic Church is a powerful organization with a wide-reaching effect on the world, you don't need to be directly under its control to have good reason to dislike it.
 
A tormented, but very hot bisexual who needs to be loved and protected? I am going to say that he falls into more than one annoying trope, not all of them LGBT related.

It's definitely possible for that to be the case, but to situate it in an LGBTQIA+ context, it's specifically dealing with the idea of such characters who are coded as "dark and edgy with a troubled past" and are usually at least anti-heroes if not outright villainous.

It's not regressive to have a gay character who's villainous, what matters is that the villainy has nothing to do with their sexuality. And considering that Hector was a villain for pretty much the same reason I don't think you can compellingly argue that there's any connection in the narrative between Isaac's sexuality and his negative behavior.

Hrm, I both agree and disagree here.

On the surface level, yes, I agree with you that Hector and Isaac are villainous people for reasons unrelated to their sexual orientation. Isaac is never shown as being evil because he is gay (or because he is Muslim for that matter). He's simply a deeply disturbed individual who learned all the wrong lessons from his experiences and whose unique abilities (i.e. being a Forgemaster) give him the power to act on his vision.

However, Isaac's depiction brushes up against a common trope in fiction where queer or queer-coded characters are frequently depicted as dark and edgy individuals with a troubled, often abusive past. It implies that queer characters aren't allowed to be "normal" and also overlaps with a much older and far more problematic trope of depicting villainous characters with queer-coded traits and behaviour.

And for me, this sort of thing always begs a question: why aren't queer characters ever shown as being "normal"? Why are such characters so often shown as deeply troubled individuals with questionable moral attitudes whose personal history has often involved violence, abuse, or both? To me, it feels like a kind of othering treatment. When the best approach should, IMHO, simply be to treat queer-coded characters like any other character and be defined by their stories and personalities.

Do I think that Castlevania's depiction of Isaac, a gay character, is intentionally homophobic? No. I would argue that the show tries very hard to depict him as a complex character and makes sure to avoid showing his sexual orientation as being connected to his villainous deeds. But I do think it brushes up against some tropes about queer characters that can be problematic.
 
On the surface level, yes, I agree with you that Hector and Isaac are villainous people for reasons unrelated to their sexual orientation. Isaac is never shown as being evil because he is gay (or because he is Muslim for that matter). He's simply a deeply disturbed individual who learned all the wrong lessons from his experiences and whose unique abilities (i.e. being a Forgemaster) give him the power to act on his vision.

However, Isaac's depiction brushes up against a common trope in fiction where queer or queer-coded characters are frequently depicted as dark and edgy individuals with a troubled, often abusive past. It implies that queer characters aren't allowed to be "normal" and also overlaps with a much older and far more problematic trope of depicting villainous characters with queer-coded traits and behaviour.

And for me, this sort of thing always begs a question: why aren't queer characters ever shown as being "normal"? Why are such characters so often shown as deeply troubled individuals with questionable moral attitudes whose personal history has often involved violence, abuse, or both? To me, it feels like a kind of othering treatment. When the best approach should, IMHO, simply be to treat queer-coded characters like any other character and be defined by their stories and personalities.

Do I think that Castlevania's depiction of Isaac, a gay character, is intentionally homophobic? No. I would argue that the show tries very hard to depict him as a complex character and makes sure to avoid showing his sexual orientation as being connected to his villainous deeds. But I do think it brushes up against some tropes about queer characters that can be problematic.
While I don't deny that trend exists I don't think it's exactly applicable in this setting. It's a dark fantasy story, how exactly would a "normal" person fit? Gay or otherwise?

Just because it's bad to always have gay characters who are dark or edgy does not mean that every gay character who's dark or edgy is bad. What matters is whether or not they pass the smell test, and Isaac clearly does.

I don't see how this logic is sustainable, should they have made Isaac straight? Written him out of the story entirely? If this is a problem there's no way it can be resolved in a good manner. Better it not be a problem at all.
 
Because the majority of the world's Christians are in fact, Catholics. Despite schisms and protestants disagreeing.
 
While I don't deny that trend exists I don't think it's exactly applicable in this setting. It's a dark fantasy story, how exactly would a "normal" person fit? Gay or otherwise?

This was my fault for not being clear, but "normal" in this context is referring to a reasonably-functional heroic character. At the very least, someone who is at least sympathetic and relatively functional. Even at the start of the show, Trevor Belmont is very obviously a good person despite his faults: he might be a wandering drunk vagabond wallowing in self-pity and antisocial attitudes, but we see very early on that, flaws and all, Trevor is still someone who will fight to protect the innocent from the cruel and the violent.

Dark fantasy is full of various flawed characters who are still ultimately good people. Unless a work falls into being "grimdark" where basically everyone is awful and the protagonists are little better than the villains they are fighting, it's necessary to actually have sympathetic characters who the audience can invest in.

Where I take issue with depictions of certain kinds of queer characters is in shows where these characters are the villains and also happen to be the most prominent queer character on the show.

Just because it's bad to always have gay characters who are dark or edgy does not mean that every gay character who's dark or edgy is bad. What matters is whether or not they pass the smell test, and Isaac clearly does.

My issue with this is I feel like it borders on a Thermian Argument. Showrunners consciously choose how to define their characters. They chose to depict Isaac as gay, one of the few major recurring characters on the show who is openly homosexual. They could have done basically anything they wanted with the character.

And honestly, having a queer or queer-coded character who is coded as dark/edgy isn't a bad thing. But it is something which pops up in fiction that I take issue with, especially in something like Castlevania where the character in question is one of the only openly queer characters on the show.

Eh like I noted before there was actually a medieval catholic minority in Wallachia with a local diocese was established for them in 1381 which was headquartered in Curtea de Arges which was the capital of Wallachia, said diocese was apparently later suppressed by the Orthodox authorities in 1519 and then in 1590 the local Catholics in Wallachia came under the authority of the Diocese of Bacău in Moldavia.

So it is historally accurate to have Catholics and even a catholic bishop in Wallachia during the time depicted in the show but they were very much a religious minority not some powerful church that dominated the region.

I mean, let's be forthright: I pretty sincerely doubt that the showrunners have any significant knowledge of 15th-century Wallachian religious politics. You've probably done more research on the topic than they have.

And I can understand this omission to some extent: Castlevania does not seek nor purport to be a historically-accurate show. A show that is focused around vampires from its outset probably isn't going to spend time dealing with the conflict between Eastern and Western Christian traditions.

I just find it annoying when Orthodox Christianity is basically omitted from history and Catholicism is basically assumed to be basically the only form of Christianity in pre-Reformation Europe. It also conforms to a trend of Western authors having basically no knowledge of Eastern Europe and the Balkans so just kind of blindly fill in the gaps in their own knowledge by assuming that the Western European historical experience is applicable everywhere.

What gets weirder is that Castlevania is originally Japanese, but depicting Christianity as Catholic is actually also a thing in Japan.

The Catholic Church is a powerful organization with a wide-reaching effect on the world, you don't need to be directly under its control to have good reason to dislike it.

I think the point being raised was that someone from the UK, a country where being Catholic was once fiercely persecuted, and where anti-Catholic sentiment did and still does play a role in the conflict in Northern Ireland, pushing an extremely anti-Catholic tone in their work can be kinda questionable.

Because the majority of the world's Christians are in fact, Catholics. Despite schisms and protestants disagreeing.

Yeah, but modern media is disproportionately produced in English-speaking countries which are predominantly Protestant and also influenced by the tradition of staunch anti-Catholic sentiment in English Protestantism. Most of the most populous Catholic nations such as Brasil and the Philippines are not English-speaking ones which makes their media somewhat less accessible to English-speaking audiences.
 
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Because the majority of the world's Christians are in fact, Catholics. Despite schisms and protestants disagreeing.
True, but the number of Protestants in the world isn't anything to scoff at. There are over a billion Catholics and around 800 million Protestants, maybe more depending on how you define the latter.
 
What gets weirder is that Castlevania is originally Japanese, but depicting Christianity as Catholic is actually also a thing in Japan.
Keep in mind that to the typical Japanese, Christianity is a weird, exotic religion they likely have learned about mostly through pop culture portrayals. Including Christianity usually being portrayed as Catholic; it's the most easily recognized variant after all. Dress somebody up like a Catholic priest or nun, and most people will recognize what they are supposed to be at a glance.
 
True, but the number of Protestants in the world isn't anything to scoff at. There are over a billion Catholics and around 800 million Protestants, maybe more depending on how you define the latter.

Also, the sheer fact that absolutely enormous amounts of films, television, animation, etc. are produced in predominantly Protestant countries (especially the US but also Britain) in the Anglosphere means that the cultural influence of Protestantism is considerable. And with English being a global lingua franca, it simply has a lot more reach than a language that is less widely-spoken even if it has native speakers that number in the tens or even hundreds of millions such as Tagalog or Portuguese.
 
The thing that bugs me about the Catholics being the bad guys in Castelvania is mainly that at the time in question there just weren't many of them there, they went through infrequent but real bits of persecution and their OTL attitudes were pretty massively divergent from what was portrayed whilst the Orthodox Church was both right there and also depending on the time period going through periods of often very violent disturbance based on the collapse of the Roman Empire, Muslim Conquest and the schism within the church.

If they wanted to be original have Dracula's wife's love of science involve her having Islamic texts in her home or something so its a bigoted mob burning her and her works as an enemy agent. There is still the theme of war with knowledge but you also get the message against intolerance and for an added bonus these guys seem really fucking stupid when the Ottomans remain off screen (at least for the first few series) and the looming apocalypses comes not from a foreign invasion but an entirely home made war.


It just seemed both lazy, mildly offensive and a bit of waste of a fairly interesting region. Because well Wallachia/Romanian/Balkan history isn't some great unknown. A few hours on wikipedia would have revealed plenty of interesting stuff native to the region at which point the showrunners could pick the bits they find cool, do some actual research and then go at it. They seem to love going from place to place and showing flashes of a world with interesting people and groups so it would fit well with the setting.
 
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It kinda still is in the Anglosphere.
People know at least memes about Vlad Tepez, there are like millions of history and gaming nerds interested in Byzantium or the crusades or so and wikipedia exists. Like when the OTL show just used some tired old tropes the bar to doing better would have been five minutes of google. And they clearly put some work into geography and aesthetics and names and so on so they were not opposed to doing research.
 
Yeah, but modern media is disproportionately produced in English-speaking countries which are predominantly Protestant and also influenced by the tradition of staunch anti-Catholic sentiment in English Protestantism. Most of the most populous Catholic nations such as Brasil and the Philippines are not English-speaking ones which makes their media somewhat less accessible to English-speaking audiences.

I reiterate: Despite schisms and protestants disagreeing.
True, but the number of Protestants in the world isn't anything to scoff at. There are over a billion Catholics and around 800 million Protestants, maybe more depending on how you define the latter.

I scoff at all Nazarenes regardless of their denomination. Being not of them I don't really have to pay any attention to them until their nature as the religious majority of most nations kicks in to oppress those not of them.

Before anyone is offended: I'm not insulting you for your religion, I'm just not obligated to pay attention to it.
 
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If they wanted to be original have Dracula's wife's love of science involve her having Islamic texts in her home or something so its a bigoted mob burning her and her works as an enemy agent. There is still the theme of war with knowledge but you also get the message against intolerance and for an added bonus these guys seem really fucking stupid when the Ottomans remain off screen (at least for the first few series) and the looming apocalypses comes not from a foreign invasion but an entirely home made war.
They went Catholic Church burnt women cause they where sciencests and against the patriarchy? Really that trite.
 
They went Catholic Church burnt women cause they where sciencests and against the patriarchy? Really that trite.

It's much easier to visually portray brutal violence than more subtle prejudice and oppression - or rather, more contextual, since prejudice and oppression is rarely subtle, especially to those enduring it. It's a consequence of the medium.
 
It kinda still is in the Anglosphere.

The knowledge that a state named Wallachia ever even existed is fairly obscure knowledge in many Anglosphere countries, let alone knowing basic facts about modern Romania (i.e. that it is not a Slavic country, is no longer communist, etc.).

People know at least memes about Vlad Tepez, there are like millions of history and gaming nerds interested in Byzantium or the crusades or so and wikipedia exists. Like when the OTL show just used some tired old tropes the bar to doing better would have been five minutes of google. And they clearly put some work into geography and aesthetics and names and so on so they were not opposed to doing research.

Honestly, awareness/knowledge of Vlad Tepes memes is actually probably fairly unusual knowledge among the general public. And I get it, historical awareness and knowledge in general is a fairly specialised thing confined to certain subsets of people who possess that interest.

But we do need to keep in mind that us being a bunch of nerds with above-average historical knowledge on an Internet forum full of like-minded folk probably distorts our experiences somewhat.
 
The knowledge that a state named Wallachia ever even existed is fairly obscure knowledge in many Anglosphere countries, let alone knowing basic facts about modern Romania (i.e. that it is not a Slavic country, is no longer communist, etc.).



Honestly, awareness/knowledge of Vlad Tepes memes is actually probably fairly unusual knowledge among the general public. And I get it, historical awareness and knowledge in general is a fairly specialised thing confined to certain subsets of people who possess that interest.

But we do need to keep in mind that us being a bunch of nerds with above-average historical knowledge on an Internet forum full of like-minded folk probably distorts our experiences somewhat.
Dracula IS a memetic Vlad the Impaler, thanks to Stoker.

And the other half of that meme is, well, all about impaling.
Whilst true I think the people watching an anime about Vampires and Medieval D&D characters failing upwards are probably going to skew towards the parts of geek and nerdom likely to have some interest in this sort of thing.
 
It also happened so it's not that trite.

Something worth noting is that the 15th-century Catholic Church was generally far more concerned with heresy than it was with allegations of witchcraft: which were viewed as superstitious nonsense at best, actual heresy* at worst.

Like, the Church depicted in Castlevania's Wallachia committed a large number of acts which would be, even by the most charitable interpretation, considered to be an extreme overreach of local authority and IOTL probably would have resulted in an Inquisition or otherwise mass-scale efforts to root out corruption and unscrupulous local officials such as the unnamed Bishop. Who, it should be noted, is strongly implied to have invested violent criminals as priests to create what amounts to a private army loyal to him, which is so dizzyingly against the law and teachings of the Catholic Church that that alone would likely get him defrocked and executed.

Then again, this might kind of work if you imagine Wallachia as a remote region where Church authority is weak and local officials just kind of ignore whatever Rome says. But even that is imperfect because what is given can be taken away and such a figure would almost certainly have been excommunicated.

*Accepting the existence of witchcraft also requires accepting the existence of magic which can be performed by humans outside of the auspices of God's will. Which is a huge no-no in Catholic theology*
 
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