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Cliches you can't stand

Well, i wouldn't go so far as say always.
Often, sure, but there are exceptions.
There is the usual "god is actually evil" trope, that while i agree with, but that seems to go for super edgy for extra transgression points.
But also "jesus was actually a wizard" which i have seen a few times.
 
Avernus said:
It seems to be a common pattern that the more fanatic and coercive people are about pushing their religion, the more likely they are to be ignorant of what it actually says. I expect because if they actually knew, it would get in the way of pushing their personal prejudices.
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And sooner or later they turn completely godless, whether they realize it or not.
 
Terra Novan said:
Christianity (or its equivalent) in fiction is always portrayed in extreme: Either it is The Truth or Total Lie that worships the Devil or Cthulu or literally nothing.
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Christianity, and Judaism and Islam tbf, are pretty clear on monotheism as a central tenant. Which, if true, doesn't leave much room for interacting with other religions and deities. Not to say that some works haven't gone half way, such as there being afterlives out heaven and hell, but that raises the question of whether the Abrahamic God is really who he claims to be if that's the case.
 
Avernus said:
It seems to be a cyclic thing. Older fiction was a lot more free about treating Christianity as fair game, but around the late 70s or early 80s that seems to have mostly gone away.
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Though the last big example of extreme reinterpretation of Christian tales I'm personally aware of was released sometime in 1984, with To Reign in Hell being a story about how God is really just the most powerful of angels, and the whole Falling debacle was because the angels were trying to stabilize uncreation into creation, so that they wouldn't have to constantly fight the primordial chaos, with a huge chance of permanent death, and some of the angels didn't want to potentially die in the project, and so caused a schism. With Lucifer not actually being the one to cause it, funnily enough, but instead just another victim of manipulation by those who were just cowards who didn't even want to chance danger for the sake of a better world.

There's so much you could do with Christianity if you were free to completely reinterpret it without having to comply with somehow "keeping it true to life/the Bible/whatever", but you barely see it these days >>
 
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From what I've gathered Christianity and not Christianity tends to get used in anime and JRPs at least in part because its a exotic and strange religion only a tiny fraction of people in japan practice.
 
skanszy said:
Not-christianity in Japanese media tends to be predominantly not-Catholic, at least in what I've seen of it.
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They had a lot more contacts with the Catholic Church and its missionaries compared to the Protestants before the modern era.

EDIT: While the Protestant Dutch was the main (and officially only) Western trade partner to Japan while the Sakoku policy was in effect, their presence was severely limited to Nagaski, with missionary activities strictly forbidden.
 
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There's also that Catholicism is still the face of Christianity whether or not Protestants exist.
 
Terra Novan said:
They had a lot more contacts with the Catholic Church and its missionaries compared to the Protestants before the modern era.

EDIT: While the Protestant Dutch was the main (and officially only) Western trade partner to Japan during the Sagoku era, their presence was severely limited to Nagaski, and even then only to Dejima, with missionary activities strictly forbidden.
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After the Sengoku era. Not during. The limits were from the Tokugawa Shogunate, who banned the previously welcome Catholics. Oda Nobunaga's Swordbearer was a former slave he had purchased (and later freed and made a samurai) from the Jesuits.

edit: and they picked the Protestants over the Catholics because they felt protestants were less likely to question secular authority figures.
 
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Terra Novan said:
They had a lot more contacts with the Catholic Church and its missionaries compared to the Protestants before the modern era.

EDIT: While the Protestant Dutch was the main (and officially only) Western trade partner to Japan during the Sagoku era, their presence was severely limited to Nagaski, with missionary activities strictly forbidden.
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The entire reason the Japanese let the Dutch trade on Dejima was that their Calvinist faith in predestination made missionary work irrelevant. The Dutch didn't preach, and hence Protestant Christianity wasn't shoved in Japan's face, the way Spain and Portugal had done with Catholicism.

Astrid Fornhoff said:
There's also that Catholicism is still the face of Christianity whether or not Protestants exist.
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Yeah, I always find that kinda hilarious. Like how, memetically, the Pope is made out to be the boss of Christianity, or the one God would talk to. I mean, even in such simple stuff as Alanis Morisette's One of Us.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
After the Sengoku era. Not during. The limits were from the Tokugawa Shogunate, who banned the previously welcome Catholics. Oda Nobunaga's Swordbearer was a former slave he had purchased (and later freed and made a samurai) from the Jesuits.
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Sorry, meant to write Sakoku but misremembered the word. Should have wrote 'while the Sakoku policy was in effect,' too.

Susano said:
The entire reason the Japanese let the Dutch trade on Dejima was that their Calvinist faith in predestination made missionary work irrelevant.
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What? Since when did the predestination prevented the Calvinists from engaging in missionary works?
 
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Terra Novan said:
What? Since when did the Calvinists didn't engage in misdionary works because of predestination?
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Not all Calvinists. But I have heard the argument that part of the reason the Dutch didn't engage in missionary work (and they didn't, not on a national level) had a lot to do with the Calvinist belief in predestination. Whoever is chosen is already chosen, and whoever is damned already is damned, and humans can make no contributions to that - which also includes missionary work.
 
Susano said:
Yeah, I always find that kinda hilarious. Like how, memetically, the Pope is made out to be the boss of Christianity, or the one God would talk to. I mean, even in such simple stuff as Alanis Morisette's One of Us.
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The Catholics outnumber Protestants despite the latter's best efforts.
 
What is impressive is that in spite of the Tokugawa Shogunate's rather though and brutal persecutions they failed to actually wipe out Christianity only drive it into hiding as evident by the Kakure Kirishitan who survived in hiding for over four centuries before reemerging in the the mid 19th century and for the most part the majority rejoined the catholic church though some did not becoming Hanare Kirishitan.

Terra Novan said:
He also has a nice, big hat.
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It really is a nice hat, the cardinals, archbishops and bishops also have nice hats I've noticed.
 
DestinyPlayer said:
On that note, I'm not sure if this counts as a cliche or just as a general tendency, but I've always hated how Christianity seems to be this sort of sacrosanct entity, while every single other religion is free for getting retooled into fiction. Shinto, Buddhism, Hinduism, pagan religions (both old and new), all the other religions that get picked for random monsters, while Christianity is, at best, used in JRPGs, Anime and somewhat obscure fantasy, and even then it always gets put centerfold instead of just on the side, like other religions tend to be.
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I dislike people misusing any religion, look it my rant about the How the Old World of Darkness handles it. Not very good.
 
Religion is a fine vehicle in which to tell stories. The ancients did it, we do it. The shame comes when you're shitting on whatever religion it is you're using as a story vessel. Whether it be the Abrahamic traditions which despite common mythology, are not the only religions in the world, or one of the plethora of others.
 
Konradleijon said:
I dislike people misusing any religion, look it my rant about the How the Old World of Darkness handles it. Not very good.
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I'm of the opposite mind. I think that, even from the point of view of said religion being true, reinterpreting and rewriting it for the sake of a story is basically the same as what we do with alt-history, changing World War II, or some other time period, for the sake of the story we want to tell. People should be free to take source from anything and turn it into anything, as long as they're not outright shitting on it. And even then, the latter should only lead to criticism, not active derision or lynching. Whether it's Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Neo-Paganism, or any specific sects of the prior stated, people should be free to take inspiration from them the same way they take inspiration from anything else.

Basically, I do not believe that canon should be sacred in fiction, whether setting canon or religious canon.

And yet it's only Christianity that seems to adamantly insist that people do not touch it no matter what >>
 
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DestinyPlayer said:
I'm of the opposite mind. I think that, even from the point of view of said religion being true, reinterpreting and rewriting it for the sake of a story is basically the same as what we do with alt-history, changing World War II, or some other time period, for the sake of the story we want to tell. People should be free to take source from anything and turn it into anything, as long as they're not outright shitting on it. And even then, the latter should only lead to criticism, not active derision or lynching. Whether it's Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Neo-Paganism, or any specific sects of the prior stated, people should be free to take inspiration from them the same way they take inspiration from anything else.

Basically, I do not believe that canon should be sacred in fiction, whether setting canon or religious canon.

And yet it's only Christianity that seems to adamantly insist that people do not touch it no matter what >>
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It's worse when it gets stuffed into a story where it's not needed or wanted, because the author wants to make sure you know that Christianity is the biggest and bestest and strongest and most speshul religion and stomps all over everyone else even though that level of power never actually comes up at any point in the story (looking at you, Dresden Files)
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
It's worse when it gets stuffed into a story where it's not needed or wanted, because the author wants to make sure you know that Christianity is the biggest and bestest and strongest and most speshul religion and stomps all over everyone else even though that level of power never actually comes up at any point in the story (looking at you, Dresden Files)
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Re: Abrahamism is not in fact, the only religion.
 
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